Clearcut Values

MonkeyK

Golden Member
May 27, 2001
1,396
8
81
Clearcut Values from Earthjustice.org

When it comes to undermining the most important forest conservation legacy since Theodore Roosevelt created the forest reserves, the Bush administration has consistently tried to hide behind the rhetoric of ?protecting roadless values.?

On May 4, 2001, Agriculture Secretary Ann Veneman and Forest Service Chief Dale Bosworth held a joint press conference in Washington, DC, to announce they believed in protecting ?roadless values? and were going to allow the National Forest Roadless Area Conservation Rule adopted during the Clinton administration to go into effect on May 12. They also said they would recommend minor changes to the rule in the future. Meanwhile, they had their lawyers roll out the red carpet for a federal district court judge in Idaho to issue a preliminary injunction barring implementation of the rule two days before its new effective date!

The Bush administration did not appeal the lower court?s ruling. Earthjustice did (on behalf of many environmental organizations) and successfully overturned the Idaho court?s injunction before the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals in December 2002. The rule was in force until July 2003, when a Wyoming district judge issued an injunction. Earthjustice again appealed and that case is currently before the Tenth Circuit. This time, the administration not only failed to appeal, but argued that citizens do not have the right to appeal when the Bush administration refuses to do so.

On July 12, 2004, Secretary Veneman showed the nation once and for all what this administration really means when it says it wants to protect ?roadless values? by announcing its new proposal intended to replace the Roadless Rule.

Rather than safeguard the last remaining unprotected wild forests in our national forest system, the Bush administration instead proposes to completely throw out the protections brought to 58.5 million acres of pristine forests by the Roadless Rule. In the rule?s place, they hope to allow governors to petition Secretary Veneman to ?establish management requirements for all or any portion of a national forest system inventoried roadless area within that state.? With this new petition process, a governor could certainly ask that all or some of the roadless areas in his or her state be protected. However, it is just as true that a governor could request more roadbuilding, logging, mining, and oil and gas development be allowed in these pristine forests.

Governors are not compelled to file a petition at all, whereas Secretary Veneman is under no obligation to do a rulemaking, or even if she does, to protect roadless areas with it. Her new ?roadless values? rule merely says she has to tell a governor whether or not she will undertake a rulemaking within 180 days of the filing of a petition. This proposal could take the ?national? out of national forests, as its result could be a hodgepodge of forest management largely driven by the relative influence of extractive industries in state politics instead of any national interest or priorities.

By eliminating the Roadless Rule, some 34.5 million acres of roadless areas are immediately open to roadbuilding and other development. Another 24 million acres had some protection--though not necessarily the same provided by the Roadless Rule--in forest management plans that were in place before the Roadless Rule was finalized. This is the sleight-of-hand by which Secretary Veneman and her Undersecretary and former timber industry lobbyist Mark Rey hope to hit pay-dirt. For example, pro-drilling, -mining and, -clearcutting Governor (and former Senator) Frank Murkowski of Alaska could ask the Secretary to undo pre-Roadless Rule protections that were contained in Alaska?s Tongass Rainforest?s 1997 land management plan (Read about the state of roadless protections for the Tongass here). Given this administration?s track-record of putting clearcuts and oil drilling first, it is apt to roll out the red carpet for the Governor Murkowskis of our nation, whereas a governor that wants to protect pristine forests desired by Big Timber is just as apt to be told ?thanks, but no thanks.?

While the Bush administration hopes to return to the bad old days of clearcut-and-run in our national forests, the outrage of American taxpayers over a program awash in an ocean of red ink was heard in the House of Representatives last month. Republican Steve Chabot, a fiscal conservative from Ohio, and Democrat Robert Andrews of New Jersey teamed up to win an amendment to the Interior spending bill that prohibits taxpayer financing of logging roads in the Tongass by a vote of 222-205. Last year, the Tongass timber program spent $36 million to sell just $1 million worth of timber. For decades, the Forest Service has hemorrhaged money to clear cut towering groves of ancient trees in the world?s largest remaining temperate rainforest and the House of Representatives just sent a shot across its bow. However, the future of this provision in the Senate is less certain, as Alaska?s senior senator chairs the powerful Appropriations Committee.


Rather old news, but the environment has been overlooked as an important issue to date.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
Can anyone deny that the current administration is an environmental disaster?

If you honestly believe that, then vote for the Green Party. Problem solved. I could care less if there are roads built in national forests or not, to me that's not an "important issue." I'd just as soon have roads so that when fires break out it we can get to it and put it out and it doesn't end up burning down dozens or hundreds of square miles.
 

MonkeyK

Golden Member
May 27, 2001
1,396
8
81
How would my vote for the green party solve the current administration's environmental policies?
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
How would my vote for the green party solve the current administration's environmental policies?

Evidently you feel complaining on a message board about the problems with the current administration's environmental policies be more effective than voting against said administration? Anyone who cares about your pet issue won't be voting for Bush anyway, so you're really only preaching to your own amen choir.


 

MonkeyK

Golden Member
May 27, 2001
1,396
8
81
Originally posted by: glenn1
How would my vote for the green party solve the current administration's environmental policies?

Evidently you feel complaining on a message board about the problems with the current administration's environmental policies be more effective than voting against said administration? Anyone who cares about your pet issue won't be voting for Bush anyway, so you're really only preaching to your own amen choir.


Hey don't claim to speak for all Bush supporters when you say that you don't care about the environment
;)
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: MonkeyK
Originally posted by: glenn1
How would my vote for the green party solve the current administration's environmental policies?

Evidently you feel complaining on a message board about the problems with the current administration's environmental policies be more effective than voting against said administration? Anyone who cares about your pet issue won't be voting for Bush anyway, so you're really only preaching to your own amen choir.


Hey don't claim to speak for all Bush supporters when you say that you don't care about the environment
;)

He's not a Bush supporter;)

I however am a Bush supporter and I happen to care about the environment. I actually hold the same position on this as glenn1 and have said what he said in the previous thread about this issue.

CsG
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
Hey don't claim to speak for all Bush supporters when you say that you don't care about the environment

I don't. I'm a Libertarian. To me the entire premise of the federal government owning large tracts of land is somewhat dubious, the idea of them owning 58.5 million acres goes from being dubious to being ludicrous. I'd sell the whole damn thing and use the proceeds to pay for putting an end to the debacle that is social security which FDR saddled us with 70 years ago.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
Why don't we just sell the national forests to the environmental groups and then they can do whatever they want with them, including not building roads if they like. I'm sure we'd sell them to you for a good price, how about $10/acre? We get some money out of the deal, and paying for maintaining them and fighting fires becomes their problem rather than taxpayers? How 'bout it environmentalists, you willing to pony up the dough to make it happen, or do you only support the environment when its tax money paying for it and you don't have to pick up the tab?
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: glenn1
Why don't we just sell the national forests to the environmental groups and then they can do whatever they want with them, including not building roads if they like. I'm sure we'd sell them to you for a good price, how about $10/acre? We get some money out of the deal, and paying for maintaining them and fighting fires becomes their problem rather than taxpayers? How 'bout it environmentalists, you willing to pony up the dough to make it happen, or do you only support the environment when its tax money paying for it and you don't have to pick up the tab?

Make it $100/acre and I'd support that proposition. How about it Sierra club?

CsG
 

Genesys

Golden Member
Nov 10, 2003
1,536
0
0
Originally posted by: MonkeyK
Rather old news, but the environment has been overlooked as an important issue to date.

thats because the environment isnt quite as important as national security at this point in time.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
Make it $100/acre and I'd support that proposition. How about it Sierra club?

Why quibble over a few hundred million? I'm sure we could come to some mutually agreeable terms :)
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
Originally posted by: glenn1
Why don't we just sell the national forests to the environmental groups and then they can do whatever they want with them, including not building roads if they like. I'm sure we'd sell them to you for a good price, how about $10/acre? We get some money out of the deal, and paying for maintaining them and fighting fires becomes their problem rather than taxpayers? How 'bout it environmentalists, you willing to pony up the dough to make it happen, or do you only support the environment when its tax money paying for it and you don't have to pick up the tab?

THey are public lands. That means they ALREADY belong to me and my kids, as well as yours. If you don't want them, ask my permission and those of others to sell them. You don't have mine. THey are protected from short sighted people who only see the price of everything and the value of nothing.

No.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: glenn1
Make it $100/acre and I'd support that proposition. How about it Sierra club?

Why quibble over a few hundred million? I'm sure we could come to some mutually agreeable terms :)

That extra ~$5 Billion sure would look nice going to pay off SS so we can get rid of the scheme. Hell, I'm sure most younger people(<30) wouldn't even demand to get paid back what they paid in so that would help too.

But yeah, I'd make the trade if it meant SS would disappear.

CsG
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Originally posted by: MonkeyK
How would my vote for the green party solve the current administration's environmental policies?
Because voting is how you, the common man, tell the administration what you think of what they're doing.

The environmental regulations that actually matter have been in place since the 60's (Clean Water Act in particular). No politician needs or wants to touch them now - the environment will keep getting cleaner as a result of said acts without them spending money - the money has already been spent. That's why this is a non-issue.
 

wirelessenabled

Platinum Member
Feb 5, 2001
2,192
44
91
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: glenn1
Make it $100/acre and I'd support that proposition. How about it Sierra club?

Why quibble over a few hundred million? I'm sure we could come to some mutually agreeable terms :)

That extra ~$5 Billion sure would look nice going to pay off SS so we can get rid of the scheme. Hell, I'm sure most younger people(<30) wouldn't even demand to get paid back what they paid in so that would help too.

But yeah, I'd make the trade if it meant SS would disappear.

CsG

The unfunded SS liability is in the $trillions.

How far would $5 bil go towards cleaning it up?

Busheconomics?

 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: wirelessenabled
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: glenn1
Make it $100/acre and I'd support that proposition. How about it Sierra club?

Why quibble over a few hundred million? I'm sure we could come to some mutually agreeable terms :)

That extra ~$5 Billion sure would look nice going to pay off SS so we can get rid of the scheme. Hell, I'm sure most younger people(<30) wouldn't even demand to get paid back what they paid in so that would help too.

But yeah, I'd make the trade if it meant SS would disappear.

CsG

The unfunded SS liability is in the $trillions.

How far would $5 bil go towards cleaning it up?

Busheconomics?

Farther than ~$580M ;) Ofcourse you assumed that I was saying more than I did - right? Notice I also suggested that most younger people would give up what they've paid in - if they could rid themselves of SS. I know I would and so would those who I've talked to about SS - they just want it gone.

But ofcourse this is an enviro-nut thread so we should probably get back to that subject:)

CsG
 

Todd33

Diamond Member
Oct 16, 2003
7,842
2
81
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Originally posted by: MonkeyK
How would my vote for the green party solve the current administration's environmental policies?
Because voting is how you, the common man, tell the administration what you think of what they're doing.

The environmental regulations that actually matter have been in place since the 60's (Clean Water Act in particular). No politician needs or wants to touch them now - the environment will keep getting cleaner as a result of said acts without them spending money - the money has already been spent. That's why this is a non-issue.

Except for details like the superfund is banckrupt, EPA is gutted and a whole lot of science has come out since the 60s along with new regulations. I know you took a class with some prof that fed you something, but there are a lot more scientist who disagree with your side.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: Todd33
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Originally posted by: MonkeyK
How would my vote for the green party solve the current administration's environmental policies?
Because voting is how you, the common man, tell the administration what you think of what they're doing.

The environmental regulations that actually matter have been in place since the 60's (Clean Water Act in particular). No politician needs or wants to touch them now - the environment will keep getting cleaner as a result of said acts without them spending money - the money has already been spent. That's why this is a non-issue.

Except for details like the superfund is banckrupt, EPA is gutted and a whole lot of science has come out since the 60s along with new regulations. I know you took a class with some prof that fed you something, but there are a lot more scientist who disagree with your side.

Actually the superfund is not bankrupt and a big chunk of the superfund sites have been cleaned up. But lets not let the facts get in the way.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Originally posted by: Todd33
Except for details like the superfund is banckrupt, EPA is gutted and a whole lot of science has come out since the 60s along with new regulations. I know you took a class with some prof that fed you something, but there are a lot more scientist who disagree with your side.
You are simply stunning. Not only am I fed stuff by Fox (which I don't even watch), but I'm fed things by people with PhDs in environmental engineering who have spent their last 30 years working in wastewater, including a 14 year stint at the federal EPA. What magical university did you attend where you learned everything that was 'real'? I'd like to go there, rather than wasting my time at these other schools that I'm going to, since they're apparently intent on feeding us misinformation.

Now that my sarcastic points are out of the way, why don't you try going online or even to the library and read up on how wastewater quality is handled, rather than citing these mysterious scientists that disagree with me? The CWA dictated that all point sources of water must follow their NPDES permits, which are updated every year with stricter water quality standards. These permits are issued by the EPA based on available technology, financial ability of the point source to achieve the available technology, and other factors. Since the NPDES programs have been so successful, as observed by the data presented earlier in this thread regarding the water being cleaner than it was only a few years ago, the EPA has started educating everyone using a general watershed approach to make the rest of our surface water fishable and swimmable. In fact, I gave a presentation to the federal EPA in Cincinnati not four months ago on monitoring wastewater processes. Is there anything else I need to tell you before you decide that I don't know what I'm talking about?
 

Kibbo

Platinum Member
Jul 13, 2004
2,847
0
0
Quick question to all who have jumped on the OPer.

Would you like to have all the national forests sold in order to be logged so that you government could make a few bucks?
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
Would you like to have all the national forests sold in order to be logged so that you government could make a few bucks?

Why not, since I've already proposed offering it for sale to those who claim to care for it the most and was turned down flat,


THey are public lands. That means they ALREADY belong to me and my kids, as well as yours. If you don't want them, ask my permission and those of others to sell them. You don't have mine. THey are protected from short sighted people who only see the price of everything and the value of nothing.

No.

So I think we've already established that the environmentalists won't put their money where their mouth is, and only support their cause when taxpayers are paying for it. They do this in the full knowledge that governments are the only entity to whom costs don't matter. If the land were private instead of public, how much do you think it would have taken you to agree to say letting Uncle Sam do atomic bomb testing on your land, thus rendering it basically permanently uninhabitable like the Nevada Test Site? Likewise, if it's public land and you refuse to purchase it, I don't want to hear your bitching if Uncle Sam decides to build a road through it.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,686
136
Environmentalists do put their money where their mouth is- we pay our taxes, willingly, and support groups like the Sierra Club with our contributions. Sportsmen of all stripes are coming to the slow realization that they, too, are environmentalists. It's tough to hunt or fish for game that has no habitat...

Few on the other side of the issue understand what a logging road really is- just a temporary track cut into the earth, no concerns for drainage or anything beyond expediency... once the trees are gone, it's just abandoned, left to silt in the creeks and rivers below... Here in the West, they rapidly become impassable even to 4 wheel drive vehicles...

As for the calls from the far right to sell off federal lands, it might be wise to remember that it was Teddy Roosevelt who first establised the system of national parks and forests...

Yeh, of course the Bush environmental policy is a disaster, of the bait and switch variety- they support the exploiters, the guys who figure if you can't make a buck off of it, what good is it? Maybe you'll be able to afford to take the kids to McYellowstone some day, or to ride the giant waterslide down the side of El Capitan in Yosemite...