Clear the confusion - Photoshop user buying a new Video card

[Fox5]

Ok...so it sounds like, if its just 2D pictures I am editing, etc, it places all of the data in the system RAM. But it will ONLY use the GPU memory if PSP is using Open GL or D3D, or Shader 3.0 etc. effects in PSP. I'm not doing any high end 3D graphics in PSP, so it sounds like I shouldn't shoot for the moon and get crazy on the feature set.

1. Given that I prob won't use Open GL or Shaders, etc will 512MB on-board memory suffice?

2. Does the memory bandwidth still count? i.e. 128-bit memory vs. 64-Bit memory bus. If I'm really just doing 2D work, does this matter?

I'd get a geforce 9600 level card with 512MB memory. This way you're covered if Adobe ever supports OpenCL, plus the really low level cards just suck. (only ATI cards in the 48xx series and 5000 series support OpenCL, meaning you'd need at least a 4850, which go for around $100)

BTW, there's 3 different levels of CUDA devices, that basically equate to Geforce 8000/9000 series, GT200 series, and Fermi. Something compiled in C for CUDA for Fermi may not run on a geforce 9 series card, though I'd imagine no one could exclude older CUDA cards if they can avoid it. (though nvidia did with some of their cuda and physx demos)

 

[Seero]

I am hearing conflicting information on getting a new video card. The main app I use is Photoshop CS4, and I NEVER do any gaming. I just edit pictures from my camera. So this is all strict 2D work. Now PSP CS4 can use very advanced 3d effects with open GL and Direct 3D, but I can't see ever doing this. I never work with Layers, pretty simple stuff.

So I thought I wouldn't need to spend more than $50 on a video card. But the sales person @ Microcenter (and others) said I will need to get a card with 1GB of ram. But if PSP is just doing 2D work, why would I need so much vid card memory? I thought the 6GB of system ram is handling all of the Photoshop tasks?

Then someone mentioned to get a NVidia car for its CUDA processors. But this would only help me out in PSP if I'm using 3D effects, correct? (Which I'm not.)

http://kb2.adobe.com/cps/404/kb404898.html

Video card helps the overall CS4 performance, not just 3D effects. Those terms may be confusing, but you don't need to understand them. You know more RAM means less loading time while working. Now more VRAM (Memory from Video card) further reduces the loading time while working. With high end GPU (ones with shader cores), it feels like there are no loading time and everything feel smooth, especially zoom in/out.

A video is better then words, especially from me

 

[jacc1234]

All of those articles talking about CUDA were speculation before the actual release of CS4, they are all from 2008 when everyone was speculating about the new features. As many people have stated the suite does not use CUDA for any of the enhanced features. I have the same experience at home with ATI and at work with Nvidia gpu's with the CS4 suite.

 

[cloudzero]

I never work with Layers, pretty simple stuff.

OP, from your description of what you are doing, I can't imagine GPU acceleration will have any meaningful impact on the performance of PhotoShop.

I agree with Keith. If you're just doing basic touch-ups than a basic card should be good.

 

[taltamir]

AFAIK OpenGL can be done entirely by the CPU, always has been. The video card just accelerates it, a lot.

Photoshop claims to have CUDA optimizations, giving it higher performance using new nvidia CPUs (not ATI); but it is made perfectly clear that it can do everything with CPU only without using any video card acceleration of any kind!

Faster CPU ahas always been the main source of performance for it.
More ram has always been required for handling more pictures / larger pictures at once.

Question is, do you even NEED all of that? Is photoshop laggining? aka, you tell it to do something, and then you have to wait while it thinks? if not then you are fine.
I really don't see what the big deal with GPU acceleration for photoshop is. Video editing where you need to edit 24 to 60 pictures PER SECOND of video, that makes sense... you are touching up tens of thousands of pictures and it can take hours.
Editing a single picture? that takes a fraction of a second. Now if you were batch editing, thats a different story.

 

[Fox5]

AFAIK OpenGL can be done entirely by the CPU, always has been. The video card just accelerates it, a lot.

Photoshop claims to have CUDA optimizations, giving it higher performance using new nvidia CPUs (not ATI); but it is made perfectly clear that it can do everything with CPU only without using any video card acceleration of any kind!

Faster CPU ahas always been the main source of performance for it.
More ram has always been required for handling more pictures / larger pictures at once.

Question is, do you even NEED all of that? Is photoshop laggining? aka, you tell it to do something, and then you have to wait while it thinks? if not then you are fine.
I really don't see what the big deal with GPU acceleration for photoshop is. Video editing where you need to edit 24 to 60 pictures PER SECOND of video, that makes sense... you are touching up tens of thousands of pictures and it can take hours.
Editing a single picture? that takes a fraction of a second. Now if you were batch editing, thats a different story.

If photoshop has any CUDA support, adobe certainly doesn't make note of it.

Some GPU-accelerated features require graphics support for Shader Model 3.0 and OpenGL 2.0

That's the only reference to any kind of graphics card being used. I'm almost 100% positive it'll work just as well with a geforce as with a radeon.

 

[Outrage]

Photoshop claims to have CUDA optimizations, giving it higher performance using new nvidia CPUs (not ATI); but it is made perfectly clear that it can do everything with CPU only without using any video card acceleration of any kind!

Adobe don't say anything about cuda and photoshop. Not even nvidia mentions photoshop and cuda togheter. Photoshops GPU acceleration works with both Ati and Nvidia cards.

You can find plugins for Premiere with cuda acceleration *if* you own a quadro card.

The first thing i noticed with gpu acceleration in photoshop is that you can use whatever zoom level you want, without gpu acceleration you can only use 25%, 50%, 75% if you want the picture to look good, with gpu acceleration you can use whatever zoom level you want and get a good looking image.

 

[thatsright]

http://kb2.adobe.com/cps/404/kb404898.html

Video card helps the overall CS4 performance, not just 3D effects. Those terms may be confusing, but you don't need to understand them. You know more RAM means less loading time while working. Now more VRAM (Memory from Video card) further reduces the loading time while working. With high end GPU (ones with shader cores), it feels like there are no loading time and everything feel smooth, especially zoom in/out.

A video is better then words, especially from me

Aww dude, YOUR SOLD ME!!! Checked out the video, and simple things like moving images when zoomed in or rotating (which take a long time) is now fluid and, well, awesome.

So now thinking of a card with at least 1GB of VRAM and a 256-Bit bus. Still a bit overkill for PSP, but I want to 'future proof' it as much as I can. My max budget is now $99 and this is the closest Nvida card I could find:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814127434

What do you folks think of this 9600 GT card?

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

I'll skip the video card recommendations as that's been covered. I do want to comment on something the OP said, "I never work with Layers, pretty simple stuff." You are seriously handicapping yourself if you never work with layers. Think of them as instant incremental saves. Layers can save you a whole bunch of time and reworking. By not using layers, you are dismissing half of the utility of PhotoShop.

 

[thatsright]

I'll skip the video card recommendations as that's been covered. I do want to comment on something the OP said, "I never work with Layers, pretty simple stuff." You are seriously handicapping yourself if you never work with layers. Think of them as instant incremental saves. Layers can save you a whole bunch of time and reworking. By not using layers, you are dismissing half of the utility of PhotoShop.

I know that's a huge part of PSP I'm missing. Just that I've gotten by pretty well without them so far, but I know I'm missing a lot. I am going to spend a bit more time learning about them and a few other advanced features soon.

 

[Fox5]

Aww dude, YOUR SOLD ME!!! Checked out the video, and simple things like moving images when zoomed in or rotating (which take a long time) is now fluid and, well, awesome.

So now thinking of a card with at least 1GB of VRAM and a 256-Bit bus. Still a bit overkill for PSP, but I want to 'future proof' it as much as I can. My max budget is now $99 and this is the closest Nvida card I could find:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814127434

What do you folks think of this 9600 GT card?

I think that's too much for a 9600GT. Though it appears video card prices are a bit on the high side right now (supply of many cards seems to have dried up), so I suppose it's not too bad for the current market situation.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...namitedata.com

There's a 1GB 9800GT for the same price after rebate though.

 

[Washoe]

Can you post some Cuda only Photoshop plugins so I can see what I'm missing out on?

eh you probably won't be able to see any of teh amazing-ness you're missing out on if you try it with your lowly ATI card

 

[Cattykit]

Trust me one this one.

CS4 does NOT use CUDA though nvidia wants you to think so. It uses OpenGL.
OpenGL is used regardless of doing 2D or 3D works in photoshop. Doing so requires video RAM and depends on the amount and level of your work. 512mb might be enough but since the price difference is quite minimal, go with 1GB one.
But, you can just turn off openGL function and be fine with it. I do like benefits of openGL drawing provide but you may not need it all.

Adobe CS5 is almost certain to use CUDA. However, nobody know if photoshop will use it. It could be for other applications like premiere. Just in case, go for nvidia cards because it's better than being sorry later on.

 

[garritynet]

I would just pay the extra $10 and get the 9800gt, if you are betting on future CUDA support.

 

[sellyanes]

Hi Thatsright,
Lately I have been getting these artifacts on my monitor, they are like long or broken lines of different colored pixels. They will go away if I refresh the page or switch from one window to the other. I've had people tell me this is my graphics card overheating, but I have checked on this and the card and heatsink are cool to the touch. I realize though that it may be my graphics card is simply going out. I don't know. I am not interested in games or any of the HD stuff. I use my computer for graphic design work. I would like to get a Nvidia card again. I have an old GeForce card in my other PC (which I gave to my mom) and it's still going strong. Besides, with the ATI card I can no longer get any driver updates, because ATI is no longer providing them for non-HD cards.

 

[elconejito]

I guess I shouldn't be surprised that people are still confused over the GPU acceleration in CS4, even though it has been out for a long time (and CS5 should be coming soon). Adobe did a great job of hyping Nvidia & CUDA **before** launch, and then quietly not mentioning anything else about it once it launched.

To be ABSOLUTELY CLEAR. Photoshop CS4 DOES NOT REQUIRE CUDA.

From Adobe's KB article GPU and OpenGL Features and Limitations in Photoshop CS4 (emphasis mine):
"your display card must contain a GPU that supports OpenGL and has enough RAM to support Photoshop functions--at least 128 MB of RAM--and a display driver that supports OpenGL 2.0 and Shader Model 3.0."

Furthermore... according to Adobe's KB article GPU accelerated features in Photoshop CS4 and Bridge CS4 the only things accelerated in Photoshop CS4 are:
OpenGL/GPU features in Adobe Photoshop CS4 include the following:
* Smooth display at all zoom levels
* Animated Zoom tool
* Animated transitionsfor One Stop Zoom
* Hand toss image
* Birds-eye View
* Rotate Canvas
* Smooth display of non-square pixel images
* Pixel grid
* Move color matching to the GPU
* Draw Brush tip editing feedback via the GPU
3D GPU features include the following:
* 3D Acceleration
* 3D Axis
* 3D Lights widget
* Accelerated 3D interaction via Direct To Screen

NONE of those features will make your photos process any faster. They are primarily workflow and usability related. They do not *need* any sort of horsepower in the GPU (with the caveat of the 3D features might benefit, but that thing is so clunky I highly doubt it). You can successfully run PS CS4 WITH all of those neat zooming, panning, tossing, rotating features on the lowliest of GPUs and even a lot of integrated video (ATI/Nvidia). The "zoom" for example, doesn't "zoom" any faster if you've put a GTX295 in there versus an HD4350.

Zooming and panning just really does not tax the GPU at all. So to get anything above the most basic of cards for PS CS4 is a waste, IMO. The new macs running 9400M graphics run PS CS4 just fine with 256mb of video RAM

Now, if you are doing something else like gaming, or using some other program that could use more horsepower for the GPU, then maybe spend a few more bucks.

 

[T2k]

Hmm, well, this is a bit tricky. CUDA helps some of the most basic features of Photoshop-

http://www.nvidia.com/object/adobe_photoshop.html
Watch the little movies they have on that link. The tricky part here is that if you want to make good use of this, you need to have enough GPU memory to store the image to make use of the capabilities of CUDA. Pretty much, if you want to use CUDA and see the benefit of it, a graphics card with a decent amount of memory is likely going to help your performance out enromously for those tasks shown. If that is important to you, then a more powerful graphics card isn't likely a bad choice. That said, I would look to something like a 1GB 9600GT or comparable, maybe $90ish, tops, for your uses.

Utter nonsense from Nvidia. According to Adobe HW acceleration in CS4 is OpenGL, any OGL v2.0-enabled VGA will be utilized for the following tasks:

GPU Accelerated Features in Photoshop CS4 and Bridge CS4

Below is a list of the Photoshop CS4 and Bridge CS4 features that are accelerated by a GPU. To read more about these features, see "GPU accelerated features in Photoshop and Bridge CS4" (TechNote kb405745).

OpenGL/GPU features in Adobe Photoshop CS4 are:

• Smooth Display at ALL Zoom Levels
• Animated Zoom Tool
• Animated Transitions when doing a One Stop Zoom
• Hand Toss Image
• Birdseye View
• Rotate Canvas
• Smooth Display of Non Square Pixel Images
• Pixel Grid
• Move Color Matching to the GPU
• Draw Brush Tip Editing Feedback via GPU
• 3D GPU features include:
  • 3D Acceleration
  • 3D Axis
  • 3D Lights Widget
  • Accelerated 3D Interaction via Direct To Screen

GPU features in Bridge CS4 are:

• Preview Panel
• Full-screen preview
• Slideshow
• Review Mode

We use several 48xx-series cards here, they all work very smooth with CS4 (Web Premium & Production Premium tested.)

 

[Wreckage]

I'm am in denial that Nvidia added CUDA HW acceleration in 2.O that goes beyond OpenGL...

Fixed that for you a bit.

In case you missed it...
http://www.tgdaily.com/software-fea...da-20-delivers-photoshop-plug-in-acceleration


Also here is what Adobe has to say about CUDA overall.
http://blogs.adobe.com/jnack/2009/11/adobe_sneak_peek_major_gpu_acceleration.html

To that point, we think technologies like OpenCL are exciting, but they're young. Dennis notes that some new features are NVIDIA-only right now and points out, "Given a choice between doing it with CUDA or not doing it for a while [while waiting for] OpenCL, we chose the former."

 

[T2k]

Did someone just fart here...?

Wreckage This message is hidden because Wreckage is on your ignore list.

 

[thatsright]

Utter nonsense from Nvidia. According to Adobe HW acceleration in CS4 is OpenGL, any OGL v2.0-enabled VGA will be utilized for the following tasks:



We use several 48xx-series cards here, they all work very smooth with CS4 (Web Premium & Production Premium tested.)

One thing I heard about when using the OpenGL feature in PSP is when you magnify a photo to 100% it is somewhat distorted and looks worse than not using Open GL? Has anyone seen this?

 

[Voo]

Fixed that for you a bit.

In case you missed it...
http://www.tgdaily.com/software-fea...da-20-delivers-photoshop-plug-in-acceleration


Also here is what Adobe has to say about CUDA overall.
http://blogs.adobe.com/jnack/2009/11/adobe_sneak_peek_major_gpu_acceleration.html

Then just NAME ONE thing that needs CUDA to work in Photoshop CS4. So far you've only posted outdated stuff, things that have nothing to do with Photoshop but other Adobe programs and.. I think that's it.


I mean it can't be that hard, can it?

@thatsright: Sounds like a driver problem.. never experienced it.

 

[Outrage]

Fixed that for you a bit.

In case you missed it...
http://www.tgdaily.com/software-fea...da-20-delivers-photoshop-plug-in-acceleration

Released over 1 year ago, and still not a single plugin for photoshop is using cuda, wonder why?

Also here is what Adobe has to say about CUDA overall.
http://blogs.adobe.com/jnack/2009/11/adobe_sneak_peek_major_gpu_acceleration.html

Overall? they talk about premier, not photoshop. Do you even read the links you posts ??

the op had a budget of $50, the slowest card the genesis engine will support are the 285's and i dont think you can find one of those for $50. But this is ot since the op asked about still images, not movies.....

This is what they say about supporting open cl

Clearly this is an answer for someone higher up to answer, but my hunch is that we'll certainly look at it in the future as it aligns with our goals of being open and non-propietary

Without getting into too much detail, I believe that we are very serious about moving to OpenCL

You can draw your own conclusions about cudas future from those quotes.

 

[akugami]

Elconejito is right. Adobe Photoshop CS4 uses OpenGL 2.0. It does not utilize CUDA in any way at all. Anyone who claims otherwise is lying to you. I do not know of any current Photoshop plugin that uses CUDA for acceleration but I wouldn't be surprised to see one out there. I use Photoshop CS4 and my plugins are very limited because for the most part they aren't needed.

Don't listen to people like Wreckage who start posting After Effects and Premiere plugins (note they are not Photoshop) as an example of Photoshop using CUDA. And there is at least one example of a CUDA plugin for After Effects and Premiere which required it being bundled with a professional class nVidia video card ($$$). But the question was about Photoshop so After Effects or Premiere being enhanced by CUDA means jack when Photoshop is not. Posting a link that mentions an "an Adobe Photoshop plug-in example for both PC and Mac versions of the software" is not the same as showing there is a PS plugin out there utilizing CUDA.

The links that Benskywalker linked to talk about using an nVidia card for acceleration of certain effects but they are OpenGL based and work equally well on an ATI or nVidia card. I have used PS CS4 on computers using both ATI and nVidia video cards and they both accelerate the same features. These features are only valuable from a usability standpoint because they make the experience of using Photoshop smoother. Doing stuff like zooming on my low end desktop (ATI 2400) and laptop (nVidia Geforce Go 7800) is much smoother with PS CS4 than CS3. Rendering of effects is not faster though. Doesn't really help on my high end gaming rig.

If you need a video card now, any $50 card from either ATI or nVidia will do fine. Most people do not use or have every single plugins out there (unless they're pirating software). There are plenty of free plugins as well as the fact that PS is incredibly powerful and if you learn to use it properly, you can do almost everything you need without plugins. Plugins are not useful and do not help as timesavers, they just may not be necessary to most PS adepts.

With all of that said, the Adobe CS5 suite will use CUDA. If you plan to move to CS5 it might be worth your while to grab an nVidia card rather than an ATI card but that is only for the sole purpose of trying to future proof yourself. I don't know to what extent the Adobe CS5 suite will use CUDA and currently don't care since CS5 is not released yet and I have no plans to upgrade my video card just yet.