Riverhound777
Diamond Member
Really though after a few years of work experience your degree wont make a bit of difference. The experience and the inteligence of the person is what really matters. The degree is just to get you started.
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CIS vs. CS degree
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ultimatebob
Lifer
CS grads think that they can do everything that CIS grads can do, but they usually don't do it right. CS folks always seem to focus on the programs that they're writing, and tend to totally forget about the computer that it's running on. And it ends up biting them in the ass when they least expect it.
I don't know how many times I've had to clean viruses and spyware off of Windows systems that programmers built themselves, because basic IT concepts like "strong passwords", "updated anti-virus software", and "security patches" totally elude them. Best of all, I always love the looks on their faces when I ask them when they took their last backup 😀
Oh well, I guess that tends to happen when you're focused on code and deadlines instead of basic systems management.
ngvepforever2
Golden Member
CIS do not manage CS grads. MBA's do 🙁 ( in my case a CS guy with an MBA)
Regards
ng
I have a CS degree and rarely code. If i do code its just some small batch programs to make my life easier. I currently work with all tech based projects for my department...so i have to know the business side too. I did take a few CIS classes in college and they all seemed pretty easy. Most of it you would know if you were interested in computers anyways...with a few business classes thrown in the mix.
The way i see it...if you can hack it as a CS major...CIS would be pretty easy for you. In my class...every person that couldn't hack it as a CS major went on to major in CIS or IT.
I do plan on getting my MBA someday...if i ever get some motivation to go back to school.
The way i see it...if you can hack it as a CS major...CIS would be pretty easy for you. In my class...every person that couldn't hack it as a CS major went on to major in CIS or IT.
I do plan on getting my MBA someday...if i ever get some motivation to go back to school.
I have a ICS degree and while alot of the lower division classes were programming oriented the upper divs were less so. I specialized in Networking so I have not seen the inside of code since my last Operating Systems class. I am helpful to my company because I can detect the BS of the outsourced developers who write our code and tell them that they are just jerking us around.
Other than that, I have not seen code for a long time but I have gotten much more involved in business related items such as product development.
i always love this debate....all i know is I'm a CS major and have a job lined up matching almost exactly what I want to do making good money and get to travel on a weekly basis (tech consulting for IBM, java programming/webservices/e-commerce).
it really just depends what you want to do when you graduate. Its silly to say that CIS majors are the ones managing CS majors. When I co-oped at IBM, all the managers were CS majors who came up through the ranks. How are you suppose to manage/direct a large project if you dont understand the inner-workings of the software/language?
EDIT: the only people who are coding 24/7 are either REALLY GOOD programmers, or very low on the totem pole. Either they're the only one who can code what they're doing...or you just started and have no say/just do what other people ask
it really just depends what you want to do when you graduate. Its silly to say that CIS majors are the ones managing CS majors. When I co-oped at IBM, all the managers were CS majors who came up through the ranks. How are you suppose to manage/direct a large project if you dont understand the inner-workings of the software/language?
EDIT: the only people who are coding 24/7 are either REALLY GOOD programmers, or very low on the totem pole. Either they're the only one who can code what they're doing...or you just started and have no say/just do what other people ask
lol, they at least know what they're talking about. sure the managers at the very top (and they have MBA degrees, no CIS) dont need to, since they are worried about the business side and the bottom end, but if you're the one managing a group of programmers, you damn well better know CS theory and understand how everything works.
obviously spidey07 is a CIS major/has a CIS degree, which is why he's defending it...no that i blame him since I'm doing the same with CS.
Just out of curiousity, where do you work to gleen this knowledge about project managers + your knowledge apparently that CIS majors are making the big bucks compared to CS? You know that all salary statistics has CS as the #3/#4 degree in terms of starting salary right?
Just out of curiousity, where do you work to gleen this knowledge about project managers + your knowledge apparently that CIS majors are making the big bucks compared to CS? You know that all salary statistics has CS as the #3/#4 degree in terms of starting salary right?
ultimatebob
Lifer
That kind of thinking can get really dangerous if your manager is managing a bunch of technicial people without any technicial training. Situations like that usually end up with overblown budgets and missed deadlines, because no one in management truly understands the complexity of the projects that they're managing. Again, I've learned this from experience. If the manager doesn't know the platform, they have no way of knowing if the developer projections on how long something will take are accurate.
Not that you can totally blame the managers, though... Developers (CS or CIS grads!) are usually WAY too optimistic and over confident of their abilities. They often seem to think things like "Gee.. Product X version 4.1 service pack 8 wasn't all that hard to configure, so upgrading to Product X version 5 should be pretty easy!" Of course, Product X version 5 was just released last week and has 20 page list of known bugs and incompatibilities that no one bothered to review. :disgust:
Gunslinger08
Lifer
CIS makes for good management in larger companies with anti-social developers. In smaller companies, such as the one I work for, we are all project manager/developers. I manage my own client relationships, have meetings and review finances and technical details at the same time. I was a CS major. I'd say that either degree can do either job. CS majors who can actually talk to people can learn the management side, while CIS majors that are intelligent enough can learn the development side. I think it's important to have experience in both management and development.
I don't fault either major, but I do fault the practice of paying project managers more than developers. Managers tend to do much less skilled work than developers. They are essentially only paid more because companies feel that someone who developers report to should make more than the developers.
Off topic: Non-technical project managers are probably the worst concept ever. They tend to promise things that can't be done or which require a much larger budget. They also tend to throw developers under the bus when things go wrong because of their own screwups.
I don't fault either major, but I do fault the practice of paying project managers more than developers. Managers tend to do much less skilled work than developers. They are essentially only paid more because companies feel that someone who developers report to should make more than the developers.
Off topic: Non-technical project managers are probably the worst concept ever. They tend to promise things that can't be done or which require a much larger budget. They also tend to throw developers under the bus when things go wrong because of their own screwups.
Gunslinger08
Lifer
That is just ignorant. A good project manager should have his finger on the pulse of a project. He should know the progress at all times. He should always be available and accessible to the developers, and even initiate contact himself.
In all honesty, full-time project managers seem like a waste to me. Unless you are managing 4-5 projects at once, you are never going to be billing a client full time (and actually working the entire time).
I'm a CS/EE graduate from a top 5 engineering university. I don't post my employment or background/credentials because I would prefer that my words speak for themselves.
My posts come from from direct experience over the last 15 years of working in the industry.
I don't like to wag things, just posting my experiences.
I've learned a lot over my career, and I'll post the most important things I've learned...
1) people/communication skills are far more important than any other
2) who you know is much more important that what you know
3) to be successful you surround yourself with successful people
4) In the end, it really doesn't matter what your degree is in if you follow the first 3 points
so hopefully this helps some people.
HardcoreRobot
Lifer
buzzwords vs knowledge
use software vs make software
i could go on
im a very successful CS major... got a job right out of college... my colleagues are computer scientists or engineers... no mis or cis or whatever majors to be found.... managers are CS or engineers with graduate degrees...
use software vs make software
i could go on
im a very successful CS major... got a job right out of college... my colleagues are computer scientists or engineers... no mis or cis or whatever majors to be found.... managers are CS or engineers with graduate degrees...
What I'm trying to say is soft skills get you farther than being a geek. That is all.
It's the personality/people skills that hold so many Computer Science people back. That's all they know - algorithyms and machines.
CIS degrees pay more and are more successful because of the people/personalities that choose them.
I don't recall ever saying CS degrees can't go anywhere, only that the industry requires much more than "I can code in whatever language you like"
Look, I'm trying to help here. One of my best lines come review time has always been "I strive to become a businessman who happens to know technology rather than a technologist who dabbles in business."
AMCRambler
Diamond Member
You can get a degree in Counter Strike? AWESOME!
Lol J/K. Not sure about marketability wise, but whenever I go looking at jobs it seems like they are always looking for programmers or software developers out there lately. At least around here.
CS is definitely the more challenging program. At least it was at my school. Alot of the people that couldn't handle the math or logic classes involved with the CS degree ended up switching to an CIS or IT degree program. If you can handle the CS course load though I think it's definitely a better degree to go for. I did CS even though I hate programming and I had no problem landing a job in IT after programming for a while. It seems that if you're looking for an IT job, they seem to equate CS with being the same as a CIS degree(this is for a general network admin IT job). So my feeling is the CS degree gives you more flexibility, to go for IT or programming jobs when you graduate.
Lol J/K. Not sure about marketability wise, but whenever I go looking at jobs it seems like they are always looking for programmers or software developers out there lately. At least around here.
CS is definitely the more challenging program. At least it was at my school. Alot of the people that couldn't handle the math or logic classes involved with the CS degree ended up switching to an CIS or IT degree program. If you can handle the CS course load though I think it's definitely a better degree to go for. I did CS even though I hate programming and I had no problem landing a job in IT after programming for a while. It seems that if you're looking for an IT job, they seem to equate CS with being the same as a CIS degree(this is for a general network admin IT job). So my feeling is the CS degree gives you more flexibility, to go for IT or programming jobs when you graduate.
I'd say most of that stuff is common sense rather than CIS-specific knowledge. I'm a CS major and we have to take both CS and CIS/IT courses. Although I've had a very easy time in all my courses, I've learned much more in my CS courses. I've already known at least 50% of the material that was tought in my IT/CIS courses.
CIS/MIS students take CS classes as well. I know I took 4 CS classes to get my MIS degree (C, VB.NET, Java, C++)...granted, I'm not a CS person and am not a programmer at all but I understand the concepts. My MIS major classes focused on integrating the concepts learned in those CS classes into a business environment.
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