CIA Holds Terror Suspects in Secret Prisons

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
Let's see: We're supposed to have a "moral imperative" in this "war on terror," but exactly where on the moral compass does a covert prison system run by the CIA with no Congressional oversight fall? What about the torture likely taking place in these 'black sites?' Better than Saddam's rape rooms?

What about the legal questions: Certainly holding prisoners in isolation would be illegal in the U.S., so the CIA takes it overseas and somehow it's OK? What about the laws broken in the host countries where these secret prisons are located?

CIA Holds Terror Suspects in Secret Prisons
Debate Is Growing Within Agency About Legality and Morality of Overseas System Set Up After 9/11

By Dana Priest
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, November 2, 2005; Page A01

The CIA has been hiding and interrogating some of its most important al Qaeda captives at a Soviet-era compound in Eastern Europe, according to U.S. and foreign officials familiar with the arrangement.

The secret facility is part of a covert prison system set up by the CIA nearly four years ago that at various times has included sites in eight countries, including Thailand, Afghanistan and several democracies in Eastern Europe, as well as a small center at the Guantanamo Bay prison in Cuba, according to current and former intelligence officials and diplomats from three continents.

The hidden global internment network is a central element in the CIA's unconventional war on terrorism. It depends on the cooperation of foreign intelligence services, and on keeping even basic information about the system secret from the public, foreign officials and nearly all members of Congress charged with overseeing the CIA's covert actions.

The existence and locations of the facilities -- referred to as "black sites" in classified White House, CIA, Justice Department and congressional documents -- are known to only a handful of officials in the United States and, usually, only to the president and a few top intelligence officers in each host country.

The CIA and the White House, citing national security concerns and the value of the program, have dissuaded Congress from demanding that the agency answer questions in open testimony about the conditions under which captives are held. Virtually nothing is known about who is kept in the facilities, what interrogation methods are employed with them, or how decisions are made about whether they should be detained or for how long.

While the Defense Department has produced volumes of public reports and testimony about its detention practices and rules after the abuse scandals at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison and at Guantanamo Bay, the CIA has not even acknowledged the existence of its black sites. To do so, say officials familiar with the program, could open the U.S. government to legal challenges, particularly in foreign courts, and increase the risk of political condemnation at home and abroad.

But the revelations of widespread prisoner abuse in Afghanistan and Iraq by the U.S. military -- which operates under published rules and transparent oversight of Congress -- have increased concern among lawmakers, foreign governments and human rights groups about the opaque CIA system. Those concerns escalated last month, when Vice President Cheney and CIA Director Porter J. Goss asked Congress to exempt CIA employees from legislation already endorsed by 90 senators that would bar cruel and degrading treatment of any prisoner in U.S. custody.

Although the CIA will not acknowledge details of its system, intelligence officials defend the agency's approach, arguing that the successful defense of the country requires that the agency be empowered to hold and interrogate suspected terrorists for as long as necessary and without restrictions imposed by the U.S. legal system or even by the military tribunals established for prisoners held at Guantanamo Bay.

The Washington Post is not publishing the names of the Eastern European countries involved in the covert program, at the request of senior U.S. officials. They argued that the disclosure might disrupt counterterrorism efforts in those countries and elsewhere and could make them targets of possible terrorist retaliation.

The secret detention system was conceived in the chaotic and anxious first months after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, when the working assumption was that a second strike was imminent.

Since then, the arrangement has been increasingly debated within the CIA, where considerable concern lingers about the legality, morality and practicality of holding even unrepentant terrorists in such isolation and secrecy, perhaps for the duration of their lives. Mid-level and senior CIA officers began arguing two years ago that the system was unsustainable and diverted the agency from its unique espionage mission.

"We never sat down, as far as I know, and came up with a grand strategy," said one former senior intelligence officer who is familiar with the program but not the location of the prisons. "Everything was very reactive. That's how you get to a situation where you pick people up, send them into a netherworld and don't say, 'What are we going to do with them afterwards?' "

It is illegal for the government to hold prisoners in such isolation in secret prisons in the United States, which is why the CIA placed them overseas, according to several former and current intelligence officials and other U.S. government officials. Legal experts and intelligence officials said that the CIA's internment practices also would be considered illegal under the laws of several host countries, where detainees have rights to have a lawyer or to mount a defense against allegations of wrongdoing.

Host countries have signed the U.N. Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, as has the United States. Yet CIA interrogators in the overseas sites are permitted to use the CIA's approved "Enhanced Interrogation Techniques," some of which are prohibited by the U.N. convention and by U.S. military law. They include tactics such as "waterboarding," in which a prisoner is made to believe he or she is drowning.

[...]
 

JTWill

Senior member
Feb 2, 2005
327
0
0
We could go by strict adherence of the Geneva conventions......Sumarily execute each and everyone of them taken under arms....At least this way we could put an end to all this silly speculation as to how we treat prisoners.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,808
6,362
126
There are too many who are willing to throw away all that makes their lives the greatest to live in history. Fortunetly some within the CIA see the danger and are attempting to back away from the edge. Hopefully they succeed in turning things around.
 

3chordcharlie

Diamond Member
Mar 30, 2004
9,859
1
81
Originally posted by: ntdz
Who cares? I mean, seriously.

Yeah, that's a fine country you've got there. Really nice and free, protecting liberty and human rights.

Maybe instead of 'enemy combatants' Bush could just redefine 'person' as 'citizen of America' and then apply the Geneva convention accordingly. Of course some exceptions would have to be made for Arabs that had American citizenship, but those are just details.
 

Strk

Lifer
Nov 23, 2003
10,197
4
76
Originally posted by: JTWill
We could go by strict adherence of the Geneva conventions......Sumarily execute each and everyone of them taken under arms....At least this way we could put an end to all this silly speculation as to how we treat prisoners.

Where in the Geneva Conventions does it allow summary executions?


 

Pabster

Lifer
Apr 15, 2001
16,986
1
0
Originally posted by: ntdz
Who cares? I mean, seriously.

The left is more concerned with the well-being and safety of those plotting to kill us, assisting those who are, and the ones doing it. Sure makes you wonder, doesn't it?
 

Strk

Lifer
Nov 23, 2003
10,197
4
76
Originally posted by: Pabster
Originally posted by: ntdz
Who cares? I mean, seriously.

The left is more concerned with the well-being and safety of those plotting to kill us, assisting those who are, and the ones doing it. Sure makes you wonder, doesn't it?

Concerned about well-being and safety, eh? It's not like there might be other reasons not to do it...... Oh right, the Army has one:

Experience indicates that the use of force is not necessary to gain the cooperation of sources for interrogation. Therefore, the use of force is a poor technique, as it yields unreliable results, may damage subsequent collection efforts, and can induce the source to say whatever he thinks the interrogator wants to hear. However, the use of force is not to be confused with psychological ploys, verbal trickery, or other nonviolent and noncoercive ruses used by the interrogator in questioning hesitant or uncooperative sources.

That doesn't really have any concern for well being in it, only effectiveness.
 

Forsythe

Platinum Member
May 2, 2004
2,825
0
0
Originally posted by: ntdz
Who cares? I mean, seriously.

Look how far you've fallen from the basis of what your country was born on.
You, my friend, should care.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Originally posted by: Pabster
Originally posted by: ntdz
Who cares? I mean, seriously.

The left is more concerned with the well-being and safety of those plotting to kill us, assisting those who are, and the ones doing it. Sure makes you wonder, doesn't it?
It makes tiny, hate-filled minds wonder. Healthy, civilized people understand and support abstract concepts like basic decency and fundamental human rights.

What I do wonder about is the growing number of self-proclaimed Republicans who seem to endorse America's adoption of more and more Soviet-style atrocities. Secret prisons, KGB-style detention and interrogation, state propaganda and disinformation, closed government -- so many characteristics of "those evil commies" are now cheered by the BushCo flock. They are becoming what they claimed to hate.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
5
0
Originally posted by: Strk
Originally posted by: JTWill
We could go by strict adherence of the Geneva conventions......Sumarily execute each and everyone of them taken under arms....At least this way we could put an end to all this silly speculation as to how we treat prisoners.

Where in the Geneva Conventions does it allow summary executions?

/taps sarcasm meter

 

Forsythe

Platinum Member
May 2, 2004
2,825
0
0
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Originally posted by: Strk
Originally posted by: JTWill
We could go by strict adherence of the Geneva conventions......Sumarily execute each and everyone of them taken under arms....At least this way we could put an end to all this silly speculation as to how we treat prisoners.

Where in the Geneva Conventions does it allow summary executions?

/taps sarcasm meter

I'm not sure it's sarcasm. I mean, there are several on the forum, and some in this thread that surely would defend if they did so.
 

Jave

Member
Jul 28, 2004
153
0
0
Originally posted by: ntdz
Who cares? I mean, seriously.

It looks all good, when you are not at the receiving end. Every nation wants or wanted to do things like this at some point of time but we always stressed humanity and rule of law. And I do not want to lose this right.
 

Czar

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
28,510
0
0
Originally posted by: Genx87
Throw out the moral surpremacy hogwash, war is hell.

morals are your identiy, they are the ones which define you from which you are trying to prevent, trying to fight against
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,500
6
81
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
The CIA and the White House, citing national security concerns and the value of the program, have dissuaded Congress from demanding that the agency answer questions in open testimony about the conditions under which captives are held. Virtually nothing is known about who is kept in the facilities, what interrogation methods are employed with them, or how decisions are made about whether they should be detained or for how long.

While the Defense Department has produced volumes of public reports and testimony about its detention practices and rules after the abuse scandals at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison and at Guantanamo Bay, the CIA has not even acknowledged the existence of its black sites. To do so, say officials familiar with the program, could open the U.S. government to legal challenges, particularly in foreign courts, and increase the risk of political condemnation at home and abroad.
The "official" reason given for keeping this program cloaked in the deepest possible secrecy is the Bush-adminstration shibboleth, "national security". The real reason is bolded in black, above: The Bushies know that if the details of this program see the light of day, there will be hell to pay both politically and legally.

Cheney should brought up on charges as a war criminal for being the creator of this system and for so assiduously defending it.
 

Pabster

Lifer
Apr 15, 2001
16,986
1
0
Originally posted by: shira
Cheney should brought up on charges as a war criminal for being the creator of this system and for so assiduously defending it.

Thanks for identifying yourself as a card-carrying member of the extreme left.

War Criminal? You guys really have lost it.

 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
So ntdz, Genx87 and Pabster (big surprise) don't give two sh!ts that we're operating a secret prison system around the world with absolutely no oversight and there is little doubt torture is the M.O.

And yet you three don't care.

Well, disregarding the fact that America should be better than our enemies and that the moral framework in which our country is supposed to operate should not be tossed away so easily. Disregarding that important concept for a moment, the main issue with imprisoning people without a trial and keeping them indefinitely is that there is a 100% certainty that a completely innocent person will be put through that process.

It happens all the time inside the U.S. and that's with a trial and the full judicial process operating with full transparency.
 

RightIsWrong

Diamond Member
Apr 29, 2005
5,649
0
0
But, but, but......they is turrurists!! They ain't human like me and you. They is bad and they wunt to kill you and yer momma!! GWB even told me so.
 

Pabster

Lifer
Apr 15, 2001
16,986
1
0
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
So ntdz, Genx87 and Pabster (big surprise) don't give two sh!ts that we're operating a secret prison system around the world with absolutely no oversight and there is little doubt torture is the M.O.

And yet you three don't care.

Can you please show me where I ever said "I don't care" ?

Before stuffing your foot in your mouth... think and listen.

I'm simply stating that the leftists have become pre-occupied with the health and safety of the people who are trying to kill us, rather than our troops. Does that make sense? Of course not, but that's how desperate they've become.
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
Originally posted by: Pabster
Can you please show me where I ever said "I don't care" ?

Before stuffing your foot in your mouth... think and listen.

I'm simply stating that the leftists have become pre-occupied with the health and safety of the people who are trying to kill us, rather than our troops. Does that make sense? Of course not, but that's how desperate they've become.
It's self-evident in your posts in this thread and others. And just who are these "leftists" you're constantly railing about who don't care about the troops? Are they the amorphous and vague threat that Limbaugh is always referring to? Is that the only sort of lame response you have left when presented with evidence that America is steadily dismantling our moral framework so we can sink to the bottom along with the terrorists we're fighting?

You're like a human macro "Blah blah blah leftists bad. Blah blah blah liberals."
 

azazyel

Diamond Member
Oct 6, 2000
5,872
1
81
Originally posted by: Pabster
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
So ntdz, Genx87 and Pabster (big surprise) don't give two sh!ts that we're operating a secret prison system around the world with absolutely no oversight and there is little doubt torture is the M.O.

And yet you three don't care.

Can you please show me where I ever said "I don't care" ?

Before stuffing your foot in your mouth... think and listen.

I'm simply stating that the leftists have become pre-occupied with the health and safety of the people who are trying to kill us, rather than our troops. Does that make sense? Of course not, but that's how desperate they've become.


How can they kill us when they are locked up in some unknown prison being tortured?
 

galperi1

Senior member
Oct 18, 2001
523
0
0
Originally posted by: Pabster
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
So ntdz, Genx87 and Pabster (big surprise) don't give two sh!ts that we're operating a secret prison system around the world with absolutely no oversight and there is little doubt torture is the M.O.

And yet you three don't care.

Can you please show me where I ever said "I don't care" ?

Before stuffing your foot in your mouth... think and listen.

I'm simply stating that the leftists have become pre-occupied with the health and safety of the people who are trying to kill us, rather than our troops. Does that make sense? Of course not, but that's how desperate they've become.

Talk about being short-sighted. What has incited the most violence against the US troops? Hmm.. could it be Abu Graib... hmmm could it be torture....how about other acts that are at the level of the terrorists that they can use as propoganda?

I support our troops enough to realize that stupid s**t like this is what causes more violence against our troops than it prevents.

It is you who is not supporting our troops. While there are fringe elements of different religions that hate us in small numbers and will probably always be the case, we can effectively minimize their recruiting activities by acting in such a manner that we do not stoop to the level of our enemies.

 

ntdz

Diamond Member
Aug 5, 2004
6,989
0
0
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
So ntdz, Genx87 and Pabster (big surprise) don't give two sh!ts that we're operating a secret prison system around the world with absolutely no oversight and there is little doubt torture is the M.O.

And yet you three don't care.

Well, disregarding the fact that America should be better than our enemies and that the moral framework in which our country is supposed to operate should not be tossed away so easily. Disregarding that important concept for a moment, the main issue with imprisoning people without a trial and keeping them indefinitely is that there is a 100% certainty that a completely innocent person will be put through that process.

It happens all the time inside the U.S. and that's with a trial and the full judicial process operating with full transparency.

You don't have to have a trial if you capture a combatant assossiated with a country, why should have to have a trial for one that is assossiated with a terrorist group? I don't see the difference.