CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style Attack on Los Angeles

[sapiens74]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: sapiens74
So pretending like your drowning someone, but they don't really drown is torture?

Didn't we do this in High School?

No, you didn't do it in high school unless you went to Khmer Rouge High or something. You really think the Spanish Inquisition got people to confess to crimes that could lead them to being burned alive using a frat boy prank?

If Terrorist saw the toilets in my old school they would have been happy with the water boarding...

 

[trooper11]

Originally posted by: Harvey

Sorry to learn that you're reading challenged. I have no idea what you're trying to prove by twisting my words, but I'll try once more to lay it out for you.

its so enjoyable to have such a civil conversation :roll:

i didnt mean to twist your words, that was not my intention, simply to understand. you want to insult me, fine, if it makes you feel better.

If you still can't grasp it, I'll make it real simple:

1. Cheney devious. Cheney lies. Cheney motives not to be trusted.

2. Truth good. Complete truth completely good. Complete truth trusted.

I'm afraid I won't be able to make it any more clear for you than that unless the powers that be enable the Braille function.

My only point was that my own comments had nothing to do with Cheney himself becuase Im more interested in seeing any info they can release. I dont care about his motives or anyone elses as long as there is factual info to follow. I dont care why someone whats info to be released as long as said info is factual, Ill make up my own mind after that.

I was also trying to point out that there is no way I can make asumptions about this whole situation by only looking at the memos that have been released so far, its like getting half a book and then guessing at the ending, its just not satisfying. thats just a general point, nothing directed at you in particular.

 

[dainthomas]

Originally posted by: her209

Originally posted by: trooper11
notice my post again, I did mention that there are guidelines in place. i clearly asked which set of guidelines we should follow....

but lets look beyond the guidelines out there. what SHOULD the line be?

Let's say after water boarding the suspect, he/she still does not talk. What should the interrogator try next?

The iron maiden!!!

:music:air guitar:music:

 

[heyheybooboo]

I shouldn't ... but :laugh: at *Khmer Rouge High*

Their football team has a big *G* on the side of their helmets ....

" Genociders "

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Hambali, the leader of the group, was caught on August 11 2003. Well after KSM had been caught.

Zubair, another member, was caught at the same time.

There is certainly confusion on this whole bit due to the White House claim of breaking up that plot in 2002, but beyond that claim all the other information we have suggests that what we learned from KSM did in fact help in capturing these guys.

BTW if you have proof that these guys were arrested before KSM please post it.

Assuming of the above is true, it still doesn't matter. I'll remind you yet again of John McCain's words:

It's not about them. It's about us and what kind of country we are.

You don't defeat evil by becoming the evil you seek to defeat. END OF DISCUSSION!

The vast majority of public communications from experienced intel ops, including experienced, successful senior interrogators, is that torture does not work, and any "info" obtained through torture is unreliable. Torture victims will say anything to stop the torture.

No matter what timeline you postulate, no matter what "facts" you think was obtained, you have nothing to prove that any good info would not have been obtained by means other than torture.

Japanese torturers were executed for waterboarding. "Just following orders" was NOT an excuse for German torturers at Nuremburg. One of Pol Pot's waterboard setups is on display at the Cambodian Genocide Museum.

The newly released Senate report states that the guidelines developed by the Bushwhackos, were derived from studying Chineses and North Korean methods. The significant difference is that those methods were explicitly intended to obtain FALSE confessions for propoganda purposes. Our guys were too stupid too figure out that the same methods would NOT be valid to obtain truth.

Responsiblity goes all the way to the top.

Bush and Cheney have both acknowledged approving not only the general parameters, but each action in each case, act by act, and Ronald Dumbsfeld actively pushed for the use of torture.

Your ridiculous defenses of the Bushwhacko criminals suggest you didn't read my previous post about Philip Zelikow, an attorney and a former under secretary of state to Condoleezza Wright, said that, in 2005, he wrote a memo disputing "THE memos" by John Yoo, Jay Bybee and Steven Bradbury, the attorneys who wrote the opinions supporting torture, and their boss, Alberto Gonzales. Full segment.

He further says his superiors tried to destroy every copy of his contrary memo. From the transcript:

MADDOW: Rather than just disagreeing with you or saying that they thought that you were wrong and the Office of Legal Counsel memos that you were rebutting were correct, why do you think they tried to destroy every copy of the memo that they knew existed? And how did you find out that they did try to destroy copies of the memo?

ZELIKOW: Well, I found out because I was told. I mean, we're trying to collect these and destroy them, and you have a copy, don't you? But I -- the -- I know copies that were retained in my building, and as I mentioned, Secretary Rice understood what I was doing on her behalf. I was her agent in these matters. And the -- so I think copies still exist.

If you're going to continue defending the indefensible, you make yourself complicit in their crimes. :|

 

[trooper11]

Originally posted by: Craig234

As 'give em hell Harry' Truman said, he never gave any Republicans hell - he just told the truth about them, and they thoguht it felt like hell.

my point still stands though: trying to use the media for either side to define the groups just doesnt seem accurate. Media on both sides can get down right brutal and incite everything from anger to violence....

unfortunately, the names on both sides are tarnished largely becuase of the politcal firestorsm that come out of the media. the terms liberal and conservative have stereotypical meanings now, depending on your point of view. I dont feel being a conservative is some black mark, but i do feel those that represent me have dropped the ball in a big way.

I think you ask a very good question that for each of us, there's consideration to be done about that, but this is not a new topic. You think Amnesty International doesn't have definitions ready for use, that the UN commisions that deal with torture can't quickly come up with good definitions? The problem is building the political support to approve them.

And thats fine, if we want to just say follow the Geneva convention, etc, then we have guidelines and the debate is only wether those guidelines go too far or not far enough.

 

[WHAMPOM]

"Ti-Tii-Tiiiimmmmmmmmeeeeeeee Wa-Wa-Waaaaarrrrrrrppppppp!" :brokenheart:Revisionist history.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Lothar

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon
So who did they capture with this foiled plot?

I'm not prepared to read the entire thread, but did ProfJohn(or anyone of the other torture belivers) address this point?
I don't remember the government arresting or seizing anyone over this foiled plot either.

The government arrested the entire cell related to this plot. As I mentioned earlier in the thread though, they did this more than 9 months BEFORE KSM was captured. His information on the subject obtained through torture gave literally zero help towards thwarting this plot.

You are not right on the time frame.

Hambali, the leader of the group, was caught on August 11 2003. Well after KSM had been caught.

Zubair, another member, was caught at the same time.

There is certainly confusion on this whole bit due to the White House claim of breaking up that plot in 2002, but beyond that claim all the other information we have suggests that what we learned from KSM did in fact help in capturing these guys.

BTW if you have proof that these guys were arrested before KSM please post it.

Yet another link from the White House itself that explicitly, and repeatedly states the leader of the cell was arrested in February 2002.

Hambali was not the leader of the cell plotting the attack, he helped KSM recruit the cell that was going to carry out the attack. I'm sorry, but your confusion appears to come from you having your facts wrong.

 

[jpeyton]

Torture also provided us with false intel that led us to war with Iraq.

4,200 lives, $1 trillion and counting...

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Torture also provided us with false intel that led us to war with Iraq.

4,200 lives, $1 trillion and counting...

No, the EX-Traitor In Chief and his criminal gang of traitors, murderers, torturerers, war criminals and war profiteers did that. The false info from torture was just part of the smokescreen they concocted to sell it to Congress, the American people and the world.

We know how well that turned out.

 

[Pens1566]

Sounds like some folks need to read "The One Percent Doctrine" to find out exactly what kind of "credible" info we received from tortured captives ....