CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style Attack on Los Angeles

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Does this change the mind of any of you anti-waterboarding types??

Or would you rather have seen a few skyscrapers in LA fall as well??

How long until the CIA is forced to declassify the papers Cheney is talking about at which point we will get the whole story instead of just one side (the side that is against Waterboarding)
link
The Central Intelligence Agency told CNSNews.com today that it stands by the assertion made in a May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo that the use of ?enhanced techniques? of interrogation on al Qaeda leader Khalid Sheik Mohammed (KSM) -- including the use of waterboarding -- caused KSM to reveal information that allowed the U.S. government to thwart a planned attack on Los Angeles.

Before he was waterboarded, when KSM was asked about planned attacks on the United States, he ominously told his CIA interrogators, ?Soon, you will know.?

According to the previously classified May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo that was released by President Barack Obama last week, the thwarted attack -- which KSM called the ?Second Wave?-- planned ? ?to use East Asian operatives to crash a hijacked airliner into? a building in Los Angeles.?

KSM was the mastermind of the first ?hijacked-airliner? attacks on the United States, which struck the World Trade Center in New York and the Pentagon in Northern Virginia on Sept. 11, 2001.

After KSM was captured by the United States, he was not initially cooperative with CIA interrogators. Nor was another top al Qaeda leader named Zubaydah. KSM, Zubaydah, and a third terrorist named Nashiri were the only three persons ever subjected to waterboarding by the CIA. (Additional terrorist detainees were subjected to other ?enhanced techniques? that included slapping, sleep deprivation, dietary limitations, and temporary confinement to small spaces -- but not to water-boarding.)

This was because the CIA imposed very tight restrictions on the use of waterboarding. ?The ?waterboard,? which is the most intense of the CIA interrogation techniques, is subject to additional limits,? explained the May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo. ?It may be used on a High Value Detainee only if the CIA has ?credible intelligence that a terrorist attack is imminent?; ?substantial and credible indicators that the subject has actionable intelligence that can prevent, disrupt or deny this attack?; and ?[o]ther interrogation methods have failed to elicit this information within the perceived time limit for preventing the attack.??

The quotations in this part of the Justice memo were taken from an Aug. 2, 2004 letter that CIA Acting General Counsel John A. Rizzo sent to the Justice Department?s Office of Legal Counsel.

Before they were subjected to ?enhanced techniques? of interrogation that included waterboarding, KSM and Zubaydah were not only uncooperative but also appeared contemptuous of the will of the American people to defend themselves.

?In particular, the CIA believes that it would have been unable to obtain critical information from numerous detainees, including KSM and Abu Zubaydah, without these enhanced techniques,? says the Justice Department memo. ?Both KSM and Zubaydah had ?expressed their belief that the general US population was ?weak,? lacked resilience, and would be unable to ?do what was necessary? to prevent the terrorists from succeeding in their goals.? Indeed, before the CIA used enhanced techniques in its interrogation of KSM, KSM resisted giving any answers to questions about future attacks, simply noting, ?Soon you will know.??

After he was subjected to the ?waterboard? technique, KSM became cooperative, providing intelligence that led to the capture of key al Qaeda allies and, eventually, the closing down of an East Asian terrorist cell that had been tasked with carrying out the 9/11-style attack on Los Angeles.

The May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo that details what happened in this regard was written by then-Principal Deputy Attorney General Steven G. Bradbury to John A. Rizzo, the senior deputy general counsel for the CIA.

?You have informed us that the interrogation of KSM?once enhanced techniques were employed?led to the discovery of a KSM plot, the ?Second Wave,? ?to use East Asian operatives to crash a hijacked airliner into? a building in Los Angeles,? says the memo.

?You have informed us that information obtained from KSM also led to the capture of Riduan bin Isomuddin, better known as Hambali, and the discover of the Guraba Cell, a 17-member Jemaah Islamiyah cell tasked with executing the ?Second Wave,?? reads the memo. ?More specifically, we understand that KSM admitted that he had [redaction] large sum of money to an al Qaeda associate [redaction] ? Khan subsequently identified the associate (Zubair), who was then captured. Zubair, in turn, provided information that led to the arrest of Hambali. The information acquired from these captures allowed CIA interrogators to pose more specific questions to KSM, which led the CIA to Hambali?s brother, al Hadi. Using information obtained from multiple sources, al-Hadi was captured, and he subsequently identified the Garuba cell. With the aid of this additional information, interrogations of Hambali confirmed much of what was learned from KSM.?

A CIA spokesman confirmed to CNSNews.com today that the CIA stands by the factual assertions made here.

In the memo itself, the Justice Department?s Bradbury told the CIA?s Rossi: ?Your office has informed us that the CIA believes that ?the intelligence acquired from these interrogations has been a key reason why al Qa?ida has failed to launch a spectacular attack in the West since 11 September 2001.?
BTW I got the link via drudge and don't know much about the source, but I am sure we will see follow up stories in the near future.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
3,321
126
I understand your thought but let me ask this.....

Whose CIA...Bushes? saying that waterboarding caused KSM to reveal information that allowed the U.S. government to thwart a planned attack on Los Angeles.

Pretty convenient if you ask me...lol..
Take that one with a grain of salt!!
 

EXman

Lifer
Jul 12, 2001
20,079
15
81
Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
I understand your thought but let me ask this.....

Whose CIA...Bushes? saying that waterboarding caused KSM to reveal information that allowed the U.S. government to thwart a planned attack on Los Angeles.

Pretty convenient if you ask me...lol..
Take that one with a grain of salt!!

:roll: That was leaked years ago by the CIA.

Not to mention KSM has worse coming to him and he deserves it.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
More sources:
MSNBC
Just a bit of the article
President Obama?s national intelligence director told colleagues in a private memo last week that the harsh interrogation techniques banned by the White House did produce significant information that helped the nation in its struggle with terrorists.

?High value information came from interrogations in which those methods were used and provided a deeper understanding of the al Qa?ida organization that was attacking this country,? Adm. Dennis C. Blair, the intelligence director, wrote in a memo to his staff last Thursday.

Admiral Blair sent his memo on the same day the administration publicly released secret Bush administration legal memos authorizing the use of interrogation methods that the Obama White House has deemed to be illegal torture. Among other things, the Bush administration memos revealed that two captured Qaeda operatives were subjected to a form of near-drowning known as waterboarding a total of 266 times.
This is Obama's man, not Bush's.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,888
55,145
136
Still waiting for you to explain how KSM's interrogators went back in time to foil a plot in 2002 when he wasn't captured until 2003.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Still waiting for you to explain how KSM's interrogators went back in time to foil a plot in 2002 when he wasn't captured until 2003.
Read the article again, specifically the last part. And then compare that information to the one in your article.

You article suggest that the plot was given up, but does not say that we actually foiled it.

So it possible that the post 9-11 attack was given up by the bad guys, but at that time we had no idea who they were and what they were doing.

By waterboarding KSM we were able to identify them and bring their little group down.

Also, the dating in your article is a little vague. Says 'spring of 2003' which means the details and existence of the plot may have only come to light AFTER KSM was caught.

The 2002 claim by Bush may have been due to confusion, or perhaps another plot, not really sure. But the one way to find out is for the CIA to declassify the memos :)
 

frostedflakes

Diamond Member
Mar 1, 2005
7,925
1
81
Nobody's going to convince me that torture (or "enhanced interrogation," however people want to sugarcoat it) is right. But who knows, maybe it was justified if it lead to information that saved lives. It doesn't sound like this article supports that premise, though. With all the negative press surrounding enhanced techniques lately, it seems like the people who support this policy are desperately trying to justify their position, but are not coming up with much convincing evidence. Sorry, but I need more than "just trust us, we've stopped plenty of big attacks using information obtained from torture."

It's definitely a tough issue, though. Like I said, depending on its effectiveness, I'm willing to concede that the ends may justify the means. I do not envy the people who have to make these decisions and balance our morals and ideals with the safety of Americans.
 

First

Lifer
Jun 3, 2002
10,518
271
136
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Still waiting for you to explain how KSM's interrogators went back in time to foil a plot in 2002 when he wasn't captured until 2003.
Read the article again, specifically the last part. And then compare that information to the one in your article.

You article suggest that the plot was given up, but does not say that we actually foiled it.

So it possible that the post 9-11 attack was given up by the bad guys, but at that time we had no idea who they were and what they were doing.

By waterboarding KSM we were able to identify them and bring their little group down.

Also, the dating in your article is a little vague. Says 'spring of 2003' which means the details and existence of the plot may have only come to light AFTER KSM was caught.

The 2002 claim by Bush may have been due to confusion, or perhaps another plot, not really sure. But the one way to find out is for the CIA to declassify the memos :)

rofl. You are so sad it is beyond words. :laugh:
 

EXman

Lifer
Jul 12, 2001
20,079
15
81
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Still waiting for you to explain how KSM's interrogators went back in time to foil a plot in 2002 when he wasn't captured until 2003.
The 2002 claim by Bush may have been due to confusion, or perhaps another plot, not really sure. But the one way to find out is for the CIA to declassify the memos :)

1st Bush never got confussed or mispoke...

Declassifing memos is no sweat! Hurting the country by letting our enemies know what or how we do something is cool as long as you can take down some aspect of the old Bush administration. Screw America we have GOP to tar and feather!!! :roll:
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,888
55,145
136
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Still waiting for you to explain how KSM's interrogators went back in time to foil a plot in 2002 when he wasn't captured until 2003.
Read the article again, specifically the last part. And then compare that information to the one in your article.

You article suggest that the plot was given up, but does not say that we actually foiled it.

So it possible that the post 9-11 attack was given up by the bad guys, but at that time we had no idea who they were and what they were doing.

By waterboarding KSM we were able to identify them and bring their little group down.

Also, the dating in your article is a little vague. Says 'spring of 2003' which means the details and existence of the plot may have only come to light AFTER KSM was caught.

The 2002 claim by Bush may have been due to confusion, or perhaps another plot, not really sure. But the one way to find out is for the CIA to declassify the memos :)

Man, you're really conducting some mental gymnastics here.

We knew exactly who they were as we arrested the leader of the cell planning the attack in February of 2002, and the rest of the cell was later arrested. Furthermore there is no confusion whatsoever that this was an identical plot, as this information was put out by the Bush administration itself that they broke up KSM's plot specifically in 2002.




 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Originally posted by: EXman
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Still waiting for you to explain how KSM's interrogators went back in time to foil a plot in 2002 when he wasn't captured until 2003.
The 2002 claim by Bush may have been due to confusion, or perhaps another plot, not really sure. But the one way to find out is for the CIA to declassify the memos :)

1st Bush never got confussed or mispoke...

Declassifing memos is no sweat! Hurting the country by letting our enemies know what or how we do something is cool as long as you can take down some aspect of the old Bush administration. Screw America we have GOP to tar and feather!!! :roll:

You sound a lot like those who defend crimes by the police against suspects, by saying 'ya, good idea, put the heroes who protect us in jail and defend ths scum!!'

Sometimes, it's really clear how surprising it is we can even keep our democracy, with all the people who are so clueless about how it works.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Originally posted by: frostedflakes
Nobody's going to convince me that torture (or "enhanced interrogation," however people want to sugarcoat it) is right. But who knows, maybe it was justified if it lead to information that saved lives. It doesn't sound like this article supports that premise, though. With all the negative press surrounding enhanced techniques lately, it seems like the people who support this policy are desperately trying to justify their position, but are not coming up with much convincing evidence. Sorry, but I need more than "just trust us, we've stopped plenty of big attacks using information obtained from torture."

It's definitely a tough issue, though. Like I said, depending on its effectiveness, I'm willing to concede that the ends may justify the means. I do not envy the people who have to make these decisions and balance our morals and ideals with the safety of Americans.

The price of rights is less perfect security. Pick.

We have means we can use - and means we should not.

I'm willing to have an increased risk of attacks in exchange for clean hands on torture.

Then again, I support a lot of policies that would do far more to reduce the risk of attacks than any torture, not that that's the point.
 

her209

No Lifer
Oct 11, 2000
56,336
11
0
Maybe they [the CIA] willl release the tapes of the waterboarding. Whoops!
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Originally posted by: her209
Maybe they [the CIA] willl release the tapes of the waterboarding. Whoops!

Obstruction of Justice: the crime of taking actions to prevent the legitimate investigation of crime, including the destuction of evidence, unless you are the CIA.
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,500
6
81
What people seem to forget here is that even if torturing a suspect produces information that ends up saving innocent lives, torture still isn't justified. Torture is NEVER justified because the real world benefits cannot possibly be known ahead of time, since we cannot possibly know ahead of time what the torture subject knows. But the costs are very well known and very high.

Torture debases what America stands for. It makes the distance between "us" and "them" smaller. It makes many of "us" despise ourselves. It makes it easier for "them" to find willing subjects to attack us.

So you cannot just count attacks prevented or lives saved. You must also count how many additional attacks occurred and how many additional lives were lost as a direct consequence of the fact that we torture.

And you must also consider that the "end" of saving lives or preventing attacks is not sufficient to justify any means. If we knew that kidnapping and gang-raping the innocent daughters of Al Qaeda members would force Al Qaeda to capitulate, thereby saving many thousands of American lives, would such rapes be justified?
 

theflyingpig

Banned
Mar 9, 2008
5,616
18
0
It is foolish to try to justify torture to the public. They will not stand for it, and it puts the US in a bad position politically. It is best to just lie and say that the US will never torture anyone, ever, and do it in secret. As long as the public is convinced that the government is firmly against torture of any kind, they won't go poking around where they don't belong. Obama is playing this game well. I am pleased with his performance so far.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,748
6,319
126
Originally posted by: theflyingpig
It is foolish to try to justify torture to the public. They will not stand for it, and it puts the US in a bad position politically. It is best to just lie and say that the US will never torture anyone, ever, and do it in secret. As long as the public is convinced that the government is firmly against torture of any kind, they won't go poking around where they don't belong. Obama is playing this game well. I am pleased with his performance so far.

No
 

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,518
42
86
Originally posted by: shira
What people seem to forget here is that even if torturing a suspect produces information that ends up saving innocent lives, torture still isn't justified.

We all agree, Republican, Democrat, independent, the Obama Administration, even the Bush Administration, that torture is never justified.

The subject matter at debate is what defines torture, and whether individuals who were given the tough task of protecting the nation should be retroactively prosecuted when the new political culture redefines the word :roll:
 

theflyingpig

Banned
Mar 9, 2008
5,616
18
0
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: theflyingpig
It is foolish to try to justify torture to the public. They will not stand for it, and it puts the US in a bad position politically. It is best to just lie and say that the US will never torture anyone, ever, and do it in secret. As long as the public is convinced that the government is firmly against torture of any kind, they won't go poking around where they don't belong. Obama is playing this game well. I am pleased with his performance so far.

No

You can deny this as much as you want, but it is what is going to happen. Don't worry though, you will never hear about it, so you can sleep well at night.
 

EXman

Lifer
Jul 12, 2001
20,079
15
81
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: EXman
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Still waiting for you to explain how KSM's interrogators went back in time to foil a plot in 2002 when he wasn't captured until 2003.
The 2002 claim by Bush may have been due to confusion, or perhaps another plot, not really sure. But the one way to find out is for the CIA to declassify the memos :)

1st Bush never got confussed or mispoke...

Declassifing memos is no sweat! Hurting the country by letting our enemies know what or how we do something is cool as long as you can take down some aspect of the old Bush administration. Screw America we have GOP to tar and feather!!! :roll:

You sound a lot like those who defend crimes by the police against suspects, by saying 'ya, good idea, put the heroes who protect us in jail and defend ths scum!!'

Sometimes, it's really clear how surprising it is we can even keep our democracy, with all the people who are so clueless about how it works.

Look you arrogant partisan ass you quote yourself in your own sig so it is hard to take you seriously. But I think your assumptions know no bounds. Why do you think KSM desrves more than he is getting? And don't give us some foolish pseudo-idealistic drivel.

Originally posted by: Craig234
The price of rights is less perfect security. Pick.


And the rights you say we give away for security are often given up freely for more perceived personal economic security. I bet those are hardcore policies you support too. I'll not even try to one up your bad anology or assumption either you can cornor the market on those.
 

NeoV

Diamond Member
Apr 18, 2000
9,504
2
81
as far as stating 'official policy' - of course you can't say you are going to torture someone.

that said, in some dark prison with a captured operative that you believe has knowledge that could save lives - let these people do what they have to do - including going 'Jack Bauer' on their ass if they won't talk.

If you have some idiot 19 year military kid with his camera phone around - then you are an idiot to even slightly mis-treat someone in custody.
 

Vette73

Lifer
Jul 5, 2000
21,503
9
0
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Still waiting for you to explain how KSM's interrogators went back in time to foil a plot in 2002 when he wasn't captured until 2003.
Read the article again, specifically the last part. And then compare that information to the one in your article.

You article suggest that the plot was given up, but does not say that we actually foiled it.

So it possible that the post 9-11 attack was given up by the bad guys, but at that time we had no idea who they were and what they were doing.

By waterboarding KSM we were able to identify them and bring their little group down.

Also, the dating in your article is a little vague. Says 'spring of 2003' which means the details and existence of the plot may have only come to light AFTER KSM was caught.

The 2002 claim by Bush may have been due to confusion, or perhaps another plot, not really sure. But the one way to find out is for the CIA to declassify the memos :)

Man, you're really conducting some mental gymnastics here.

We knew exactly who they were as we arrested the leader of the cell planning the attack in February of 2002, and the rest of the cell was later arrested. Furthermore there is no confusion whatsoever that this was an identical plot, as this information was put out by the Bush administration itself that they broke up KSM's plot specifically in 2002.


:thumbsup: