You seem to be under the impression that filthy news out of the US about who we really are is somehow going to cause the insanity of hate that is directed at us now to somehow become greater than it already is. 'Now dear, I know that you're all upset about my affair, but I just wanted you to know I was sleeping with two other women, and not one." You damn cowards amaze me. You may face death, but show you fucked up somewhere, no way. God damn denial.
You seem to be under the impression that filthy news out of the US about who we really are is somehow going to cause the insanity of hate that is directed at us now to somehow become greater than it already is. 'Now dear, I know that you're all upset about my affair, but I just wanted you to know I was sleeping with two other women, and not one." You damn cowards amaze me. You may face death, but show you fucked up somewhere, no way. God damn denial.
Destroying evidence makes you glad? If the tapes don't exist anymore how do you suppose those who committed these crimes be brought to justice? They won't. You speak out of both sides of your mouth, wanting justice on one side, while gladly appraising the destruction of it on the other.
The neocon(euphemism for fascist) think, "We will believe no evil of George Bush, not even with ten times the evidence that would condemn any other man, we after all have our biases to uphold." explains alot now does it not?
Lemon law
Lifer
- Nov 6, 2005
- 20,984
- 3
- 0
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To palehorse74,
The depths of your convoluted logic in this single post strains all belief. Of course thing can get worse in the mid-east and GWB&co seem to be doing everything to make things worse.
Its not only a risk I am unwilling to take, its dumb dumb dumb and you are dumber if you endorse it.
Prior to 911, many in the mideast were not happy with our one sided support of Israel. But the US still was looked as the a possible peacebroker. But still all US citizens had a resultant bulleye on their back. After the occupation of Iraq, that bulleyes has become much darker and better defined because of GWB. So that bulleyes has become much worse which is a risk we should not have allowed. And you are being intellectually dishonest in not acknowledging that fact that things are much worse now because of GWB.
And while I don't doubt your dedication as a soldier, the fact is that the guns, bullet, and force you advocate will just lead to a scenario you foresee where we will be in Iraq forever making no progress pursuing the military options of Bush plan A. I have already laid out my plan B of diplomacy in countless other threads. If you missed them, I am not surprised that you are blind to all the things the military can't do.
But learn you this, when you are in a hole, quit digging it deeper. It only makes things worse. As 4.5 years in Iraq has shown and 5.5 years in Afghanistan has shown.
If the tapes were destroyed to avoid prosecution then water-boarding is torture/illegal and all this talk about is it or isn't it is moot?
Let me get this straight - Bush (or one of his people) said "Yeah, go ahead" when talking about water-boarding, but at the time knew it was illegal? So, if you disagree with a law, you can break it? As long as you think the law is wrong?
Let me get this straight - Bush (or one of his people) said "Yeah, go ahead" when talking about water-boarding, but at the time knew it was illegal? So, if you disagree with a law, you can break it? As long as you think the law is wrong?
palehorse
Lifer
- Dec 21, 2005
- 11,521
- 0
- 76
I've already stated on several occasions that I believe invading Iraq was a mistake - one of many made by the current Administration.
That said, I don't see it as the root cause of the wide-spread hatred of the West. As I said to Lemon, that bullseye on our back has been there for a long time; and the compunding hatred we see and hear is the culminating backlash of 40+ years of foreign policy. In other words, it's not "all Bush's fault;" as so many of the intellectually dishonest fanatics here love to claim. He's nothing more than the most convenient, or most recent, target.
Get over yourself Moonbeam. You're not a prophet, an enlightened one, or the judge and jury responsible for pointing out the flaws everyones' psyche. Calling men like me a coward is nothing more that YOUR special way of getting back at everyone who stuffed you into trashcans back in High School... get over it, and get over yourself.
palehorse
Lifer
- Dec 21, 2005
- 11,521
- 0
- 76
Well, with all the super-duper lawyers running around, I'm sure they'll find a way to hang some people for this debacle; and you guys can all raise a toast to them at the coffee shops when they do.
Like I said, I hope they catch and properly punish everyone involved. I just won't lose any sleep over the missing tapes themselves, as their destruction may ultimately save lives - including my own.
I wouldn't expect you to understand...
palehorse
Lifer
- Dec 21, 2005
- 11,521
- 0
- 76
I don't endorse it, and disagree with much of what this Administration has done. However, rather than obsessing with the futile fantasy of hanging Bush from the nearest tree, I focus all of my energy on fixing what we've borken, and planning for the future.
I do not believe that parading Bush&Co. out in front of the Hague will have the great healing effects you believe it would. In fact, I think the entire process would become a show that would only distract the world from the real problems we're facing on the ground.
I also doubt it would ever happen, so why waste your time screaming yourself hoarse about it?
You dumbass. 9/11 took place prior to our invasion of Iraq. Claiming that there were only a handful of haters, at that point, is just plain ignorant.
OK, we agree. Now what?
I never said they weren't worse now; but they were pretty damn bad before he stepped into office as well - which is something many/most of you seem to ignore. A lot of you give the impression that all of our troubles began sometime during 2003. That is why you are the ones who are being intelliectually dishonest. You're so obsessed with the Blame Game that you completely ignore the real roots of our problems - which are are actually the sum total of 40+ years of screwed up foreign policy.
You didn't "lay out" jack sh*t. You, along with everyone else, merely make grandois statements like "we should do teh diplomacy thang." Not once have you been able to articulate just how that would work, or how its ANY different than our current diplomatic efforts throughout Iraq and the rest fo the world.
What? Do you honestly think that Rice twiddles her thumbs all day long, and that nobody, anywhere, is working toward diplomatic solutions to the same problems!?
Again, if that's what you think, then you're being intellectually dishonest again!
We have made great progress in both theaters; and, as some of us have known all along, our efforts were always known to be a very longterm project. I understand how much of the American-mini-series-sitcom-all-gets-resolved-in-less-than-two-hours crowd can't comprehend this - the "I want it NOW!" folks - but this was going to be a 10-20 year mission from the get-go!
Folks like me have been saying as much since day one!
Strap in folks... we're in it for the long haul. You had damn well get used to that idea. Want my advice? Become a soldier, or a diplomat, and actually chip in for a change...
palehorse
Lifer
- Dec 21, 2005
- 11,521
- 0
- 76
Perhaps they realized that the legality of the water-boarding could change with the political winds, and they didn't want to be at the receiving end of a witch-hunt when that happened.
Imagine that!
I think his legal advisors probably told him that all would be OK, and that it fell into such a legal gray area, that nothing would ever come from it. I'm pretty sure that's why any of them went along with it.
After all, we still don't know whether or not it's actually illegal. Most of us simply agree that it's immoral, and more than likely illegal.
Hence the gray area I mentioned...
Actually, yes, you can. Civil disobedience is actually encouraged if/when you make a stand against laws you feel are unjust. (See also : the founding of the USA, Rosa Parks, and many other examples of those who stood up against established rules and laws). You may also want to read a certain famous essay titled Civil Disobedience...
Now, that said, this wont always work out in your favor, as you run the risk of standing up for the wrong laws, or for the wrong reasons. You may also fail to convince "the people" to change the laws as you see fit... which usually means you'll end up in jail. (DOH!)
I don't think that's the case here with Bush, but I thought you should learn a little about your duties as a moral American.
Lemon law
Lifer
- Nov 6, 2005
- 20,984
- 3
- 0
Can anyone believe palehorse74 when he says--Perhaps they realized that the legality of the water-boarding could change with the political winds, and they didn't want to be at the receiving end of a witch-hunt when that happened.
The entire spirit of the Geneva convention clearly outlaws that kind of morally bankrupt behavior. And any attempts to justify it comes straight out of Orwellian satire in the form of black is white or all are equal but some are more equal than others. There is not a dime's worth of difference between the people who were in charge of Nazi Germany and GWB&co.
And in terms of the former, all their carefully crafted legal justifications for human depravity
did not last more than a few milliseconds at the Hague.
People like Gonzales or Attington may seek to come up with these convoluted logic conclusions but all the while they know they are wrong and must hide what they are doing.
But the truth still comes out and world condemnation follows. Its not a matter of changing political winds, its a matter of how long they can get away with violating existing and lasting human standards.
My advice is to become a diplomat and not a soldier. And while palehorse74 claims to not endorse the policies of GWB, he is still a small but useful cog in perpetuating those policies.
Another popular Nazi war criminal defense under the generic heading of the good German defense that also did not last more than a few milliseconds at the Hague.
Lets face the facts, a military can win wars and occupy territory, but it can't win hearts and minds of an occupied people. And palehorse74 just gives us another there is light at the end of the tunnel because he knows no other rationale. The most recent historical precedent for an Iraqi occupation was the British one that lasted about 17 years in the 1920 and 1930, and ultimately the Brits gave up after accomplishing nothing. And quite clearly palehorse74 has learned nothing from Vietnam.
The entire spirit of the Geneva convention clearly outlaws that kind of morally bankrupt behavior. And any attempts to justify it comes straight out of Orwellian satire in the form of black is white or all are equal but some are more equal than others. There is not a dime's worth of difference between the people who were in charge of Nazi Germany and GWB&co.
And in terms of the former, all their carefully crafted legal justifications for human depravity
did not last more than a few milliseconds at the Hague.
People like Gonzales or Attington may seek to come up with these convoluted logic conclusions but all the while they know they are wrong and must hide what they are doing.
But the truth still comes out and world condemnation follows. Its not a matter of changing political winds, its a matter of how long they can get away with violating existing and lasting human standards.
My advice is to become a diplomat and not a soldier. And while palehorse74 claims to not endorse the policies of GWB, he is still a small but useful cog in perpetuating those policies.
Another popular Nazi war criminal defense under the generic heading of the good German defense that also did not last more than a few milliseconds at the Hague.
Lets face the facts, a military can win wars and occupy territory, but it can't win hearts and minds of an occupied people. And palehorse74 just gives us another there is light at the end of the tunnel because he knows no other rationale. The most recent historical precedent for an Iraqi occupation was the British one that lasted about 17 years in the 1920 and 1930, and ultimately the Brits gave up after accomplishing nothing. And quite clearly palehorse74 has learned nothing from Vietnam.
palehorse
Lifer
- Dec 21, 2005
- 11,521
- 0
- 76
I CAN! :Q oh, wait...
"clearly"?!? really?! I hardly think the ambiguous language used in the GC's is as black-and-white as you make it out to be. After all, this particular method has been debated for years now - let alone the dozens of other "harsh techniques" that are also debated from time to time.
In fact, we just had a thread discussing this very fact! Very few people could agree on what exactly defines, or is considered, "torture." Therefore, I believe you are really stretching the truth when you claim that it's so damn "clearly" spelled out in any law or international agreement.
gee, the Bush = Hitler argument... that's new! :roll:
...after they slaughtered roughly six million innocent civilians and LOST the war. Hmmm...
Again, you act as though the laws governing water-boarding were so clearly spelled out. They were most certainly not, and I still contend that bush's advisors explained as much to him before he decided to authorize its use.
Why thank you. I believe that I'm a pretty decent "cog" too!
Let's assume that your Bush-Nazi analogy is even remotely accurate, for just a moment... How many regular german soldiers stood trial in the Hague?
"no other rationale"?! seriously?! I've never proposed that the military option should be the only one employed! In fact, I've always believed that diplomacy should go hand-in-hand with a security provided by the military. In the case of Iraq, the two options must be performed simultaneously. Neither one would be effective on its own.
And, using a little common sense, even you must agree that security comes first -- hence, our current strategy in Iraq.
then again, as I asked you before, do you honestly believe that Bush&Co. are just sitting back on their hands waiting for the military to do its thing?! Is Rice just twiddling her thumbs until she receives some sort of :thumbsup: from the military Generals? Are our diplomats (the largest deployed State Dept. contingent in the world) just drafting internal memos and explaining Far Side jokes with their Iraqi counterparts?!
Or rather, do you more honestly believe that we are reaching out to everyone at a diplomatic level; and that we are, in fact, pushing the Iraqi parlaiment to work harder and faster...?
Do you honestly believe that we are entirely focused on a military success? Really?!
Please tell me that you're not that ignorant...
If your only problem is that you believe current diplomacy is being handled poorly, then you have to first admit that we are, in fact, also already using diplomacy as a means to solve the problems -- it's just that you believe someone else could do it better.
right?
Once you've admitted that we are already employing both options, simultaneously, I'd like you to tell us, specifically, what you would do differently.
good luck!
How about the fact that this is an administration of TRAITORS and MURDERERS that goes all the way to your TRAITOR IN CHIEF who has done everthing they can to destroy and hide evidence and has used the power of their offices block those investigations?
How about your TRAITOR IN CHIEF claiming "executive privilege" and hiding behind "signing statements" to hold himself and his criminal cabal above the Constitution and any other laws and immune from any warrants for information or from prosecution for their crimes?
Are YOU willing to speak up against such arrogance and illegality and in favor of turning over all remaining documents and information? :roll:
.
.
:clock:
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:clock:
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:clock:
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< crickets >
Pabster -- Still waiting...
How about your TRAITOR IN CHIEF claiming "executive privilege" and hiding behind "signing statements" to hold himself and his criminal cabal above the Constitution and any other laws and immune from any warrants for information or from prosecution for their crimes?
Are YOU willing to speak up against such arrogance and illegality and in favor of turning over all remaining documents and information? :roll:
.
.
:clock:
.
.
:clock:
.
.
:clock:
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.
< crickets >
How about your TRAITOR IN CHIEF claiming "executive privilege" and hiding behind "signing statements" to hold himself and his criminal cabal above the Constitution and any other laws and immune from any warrants for information or from prosecution for their crimes?
Are YOU willing to speak up against such arrogance and illegality and in favor of turning over all remaining documents and information? :roll:
.
.
:clock:
.
.
:clock:
.
.
:clock:
.
.
< crickets >
Hey, dick head. The only reason I waste my time on your worthless ass is because I love the truth and think you have that capacity too. And how would you know if I am any of those things. I don't claim it so you must see them in me. I am a figment of your imagination, whatever you think you know about me.
And your psyche isn't flawed, it's your moral values that are bent by an allegiance to form over substance. The ban on torture can be nothing other than absolute and the destruction of evidence of torture is also a crime. You believe that if you hide the truth you somehow hide its reality whereas the reality exposed is always better than the reality imagined, no matter how bad it is. And he who has the courage to face his own evil becomes less evil. People of character believe in responsibility, consequences, no. Hide the truth and you shelter the wrongdoers from their consequence and paying that debt is the only way to redemption. You sell yourself and the truth short and that's what disgusts me. I think it's you who is back in high school with your trash cans and your fantasies. I ask you to be better and to understand you can never hide from yourself.
Throckmorton
Lifer
- Aug 23, 2007
- 16,830
- 3
- 0
Moonbeam may seem crazy but he has a better understanding of what liberty means than most people on this forum. Some of you people need to stop watching "24" and reading The Prince and start watching Star Trek and reading Thucydides.
After the incident of outing or supposedly outing an undercover informant, I dont think the White House or its staff is on too friendly a term with the FBI or the CIA.
Remember we are expecting these people to intercept and capture Al Qaeda Plots to kill Americans. So I dont see this action as being a good idea. We want protection but we dont want it to be messy. Maybe you want to live in land of utopia?
Remember we are expecting these people to intercept and capture Al Qaeda Plots to kill Americans. So I dont see this action as being a good idea. We want protection but we dont want it to be messy. Maybe you want to live in land of utopia?
db
Lifer
- Dec 6, 1999
- 10,575
- 292
- 126
"The CIA's Destroyed Interrogation Tapes and the Saudi-Pakistani 9/11 Connection":
"Zubaydah laid out details of how he and the al Qaeda hierarchy had been supported at high levels inside the Saudi and Pakistan governments.
"He named two other Saudi princes, and also the chief of Pakistan's air force, as his major contacts. Moreover, he stunned his interrogators, by charging that two of the men, the King's nephew, and the Pakistani Air Force chief, knew a major terror operation was planned for America on 9/11.
"... All four identified by Zubaydah are now dead.
"...Why does Bush, and the CIA, continue to protect the Saudi Royal family and the Pakistani military...?
"...because the Bush administration desperately needs Pakistani and Saudi help, not only to keep Afghanistan from spinning completely out of control, but also as counterweights to the growing power of Iran. The Sunni governments in Riyadh and Islamabad have as much to fear from a resurgent Iran as does the Bush administration.... And now the cover-up is enhanced by the CIA's destruction of Zubaydah's interrogation tapes."
Link
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