Church Audio

[Red Squirrel]

Figured this might be a good spot to ask this question. Long story short, I'm looking at sourcing out a brand new audio system for our church as our stuff got stolen (who steals from a Church? :\ )

Figured may as well do this right and use separate components (or is it better to go integrated?). I'm thinking:

- Mixer that is not amplified
- separate amplifier(s)
- separate equalizer?
- some kind of way to distribute audio to multiple speakers?

Speaker wise we have a left and right, and centre. We also have a couple smaller speakers throughout other areas so people outside auditorium can listen on too. We also need output for recording but most mixers seem to have that already so that's not a problem.

Typically we mostly need to mix microphones, but also cd player, computer, guitars etc.

For the 3 main speakers, I want the centre one to just be the left and right channels combined, same with the other speakers throughout, while the left/right remain as left/right. What's the best way to achieve this?

Overall, I'm open for other recommendations on making this a decent system. I never had to source something out like this before so doing research as I go. I will have to check the ohms of our speakers as well so I get a proper amp. Don't have a budget yet, mostly just looking at what's out there and different configurations. I'm in Canada, so I want to buy from a Canadian retail site.

 

[sdifox]

Ask Shania twain to donate :awe:

 

[sdifox]

Failing that can you put together a list of sources, destinations and hoe many mixes maximum at the same time. You should check if there is a local pro audio shop.

 

[DigDog]

when you say multiple speakers, do you mean separate audio tracks? i.d left + right + center (all 3 playing different music) or do you just want your regular stereo + adding mono instruments in the mix?
any mixer will do that. for example, http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Soundcraf...613097?hash=item33ae5c3ee9:g:AisAAOSwfZ1WbriV
also, mixers are never amplified. the maximum amount of aplification you can get from a mixer is zero (same volume going out as it went in). mixers attenuate, not amplify.

things that you plug in to your mixer, will each need their separate preamp. some have them built in (like a CD player), some require preamps, say, a bass guitar. the mixer "mixes" the various music, voices, instruments, into a stereo (2-channel) track which goes into an amplifier, and from there goes out to two or more speakers.

even with multiple speakers, you will still only get 2 channels (left + right).

i suggest you look at preamplified PA speakers(each speaker has its own amp inside), because they are water resistant, can chain (instead of sending a cable to two left speakers, for example, you send it to left speaker A, and from that to left speaker B), and are impossible to destroy. not the greatest sound, but imho worth it for your application.

 

[Red Squirrel]

The mixer we had was amplified, basically we had left/right coming out of the amp slots, and then a non amplified output (mono out if I recall) going to a separate amp for the centre speaker.

Typically we only use the centre speaker for speech, as it sounds better if it's just coming from a single source, but when there is music we may want to use the left/right as well. So basically what I want is left/right to be stereo, and the centre to just be a mono mix of left/right. We also have some smaller speakers (non powered) that we'd want to power as well. Probably use some kind of splitter? Also may want to use monitors, but I think those are usually self powered so they just need a signal out going to the stage, and not an amplified signal. Probably use an aux output for that.

The speakers are non amplified, one of them is fairly new, so we'll want to stick with those.

Though from a quality perspective, is it better to go separate, or integrated, like I can get a mixer board that has amplification + equalizer and other features, or get a "passive" mixer, with seperate EQ, amps etc. Any advantage/disadvantage to either way? The integrated would most likely be cheaper, but I kind of like the idea of picking out each component and building out the system.


Oh and as far as actual requirements probably helps to add that, at least off top of my head:

Inputs: Microphones, guitars, possibly some RCA connections. (we had 24 channels, but we can probably get away with less, I can't recall a single time we actually used every one)

Non amplified outputs:
- Record out
- a few powered speakers throughout building

Amplified outputs:
- right main speaker (right sound only)
- Centre main speaker (left + right)
- left main speaker (left sound only)
- Monitors, and other smaller auxiliary speakers, possibly.

Just browsing an A/V site, I found this device that looks interesting:

http://www.avshop.ca/sound-amp-pa-a...ll-mixers/art-mx225-5-zone-distribution-mixer

Is each zone basically a speaker? So I feed the left/right feeds into that, then I can control how much of the left/right goes into each zone's outputs, then those go to the amps? I could see this come in handy, as in some instances they may want a true stereo for like a movie or something, but in other instances, they might just wnat to mix everything to all speakers equally. This would allow us to distribute the left/right channels as required to the various speakers.

I'm probably overdoing this though, I'm more or less just in reasearch phase now, figured if I build this from ground up I'll make it good, depending on how much of a budget we get.

Looking at all the stuff on this site makes me want to upgrade my living room, while I'm at it.

 

[sdifox]

How many channel of input do you plan to use? Each channel is mono. Mixer with more than 2 channel out get expensive fast.

http://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=615816

On sale 16 channel mixer from monoprice, 220.

 

[Red Squirrel]

16 would probably be plenty. I totally forgot about Monoprice. Actually that mixer does have a mono out jack. Come to think of it, if I want to distribute left/right audio I'd do that with the balance on each individual channel anyway. So I probably need just the mixer, and 4 or more channel amp and I think I'm set. 4th channel would power the smaller aux speakers.

 

[DigDog]

as far as i know, mixers will output two channels. i have never seen a 3+ channel mixer, although professional mixers send out two copies of the same L+R mix, one to the recording/amp, the other to the monitors. i don't see how you can have a separate center channel.
there is a trick you can do with the aux channel to have a thrid channel.

i should feel ashamed because i used to work in audio, but i guess i just kept looking at the same machines all these years. maybe visit a BC Rich or other audio shop, they might have a solution for you.

regarding the amplification, mixers just bring the signal to line level. you will want more to drive the speakers. sorry about the mixup in weird terminology.

cable splitters and powered splitter boxes are viable as long as you are ok with having two speakers play the same mix.


all mixers have EQs. the image i linked has your typical EQ in each channel, which is bass eq, treble eq, mids eq, and mids frequency. will do the trick. i was just trying to say that consoles ("mixers") are quite cheap used (the market is flooded) and yet they are great professional models. it depends on your budget, but you can get a studio console for like, a grand.


regarding the channels, the signal path goes input, EQ/preamp etc, pan (send to left/right channel), then into the master, then out to left+right. the console i linked (not saying it's great, again. just showing you a price point) has Aux sends, which allows you to send individual channels to a second set of L+R; this might work for you if you attach the aux to the center speaker, however the master volume control will not work with this signal, you need to amp it with the gain knob in the channel.

btw, stereo channel (no Pan)mixers do exist, but are a different kind of product, generally DJ equipment. makes it more expensive and lower quality, but they still work.

 

[sdifox]

Op you must test the system with Carmina Burana :awe:

 

[Red Squirrel]

Been reading up more, I think I realized what I want, a LCR mixer. Left Centre Right. One that allows me to assign a channel to only output to one or more channels. Does this exist? For example, if I have a microphone on channel 1, I want to make it go only to the centre speaker. MAYBE I want to have it go to left/right but at a lower volume. Basically I want to be able to control this on a per channel basis, while the slider is the overall output volume of that channel. If there's music, I might want it's respective channel to go to left or right (that would take two inputs of course). Basically I want to be able to distribute the audio to the 3 outputs individually from each individual channel.

I know I can do that with aux, but I lose the ability to control it with the sliders as aux is usually pre slider.

Does this make sense, is this a common feature on some boards? What should I be searching or looking for to get that feature? Not sure if this might have a specific terminology.

Worse case, I will just go with regular left/right and mono output, where the mono is just a mix of the left/right. That's what we had before. Typically we only use the centre speaker for when preacher is talking as voice sounds better when it comes from one source, but it would be nice to be able to setup so when there is music, that vocals come only from centre, and accompanying music goes left/right. Because of how far apart left/right is, I could almost even consider those 1 channel rather than being stereo but I still want to treat them as stereo anyway. Basically I want to keep it versatile for various needs. Most of the time though we'll convert a stereo source to mono by plugging it into a single input and then it goes to L/R equally.

Also for monitors, I'm thinking it might just be easier to use powered monitors, then I don't have to worry about having amps that are used only for monitors. We don't use monitors often enough, but it's still nice to have the option. The way I had it setup is I had an aux output going back to the stage through the snake so I'll probably do the same.

I have not been given a budget yet, so at this point I'm still just looking at all the options to give myself a starting point.

 

[sdifox]

Been reading up more, I think I realized what I want, a LCR mixer. Left Centre Right. One that allows me to assign a channel to only output to one or more channels. Does this exist? For example, if I have a microphone on channel 1, I want to make it go only to the centre speaker. MAYBE I want to have it go to left/right but at a lower volume. Basically I want to be able to control this on a per channel basis, while the slider is the overall output volume of that channel. If there's music, I might want it's respective channel to go to left or right (that would take two inputs of course). Basically I want to be able to distribute the audio to the 3 outputs individually from each individual channel.

I know I can do that with aux, but I lose the ability to control it with the sliders as aux is usually pre slider.

Does this make sense, is this a common feature on some boards? What should I be searching or looking for to get that feature? Not sure if this might have a specific terminology.

Worse case, I will just go with regular left/right and mono output, where the mono is just a mix of the left/right. That's what we had before. Typically we only use the centre speaker for when preacher is talking as voice sounds better when it comes from one source, but it would be nice to be able to setup so when there is music, that vocals come only from centre, and accompanying music goes left/right. Because of how far apart left/right is, I could almost even consider those 1 channel rather than being stereo but I still want to treat them as stereo anyway. Basically I want to keep it versatile for various needs. Most of the time though we'll convert a stereo source to mono by plugging it into a single input and then it goes to L/R equally.

Also for monitors, I'm thinking it might just be easier to use powered monitors, then I don't have to worry about having amps that are used only for monitors. We don't use monitors often enough, but it's still nice to have the option. The way I had it setup is I had an aux output going back to the stage through the snake so I'll probably do the same.

I have not been given a budget yet, so at this point I'm still just looking at all the options to give myself a starting point.

maybe something like this

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/con...d=CJvL74u_48kCFQ2OaQod1nEPZQ&is=REG&A=details

 

[Red Squirrel]

I was thinking something like that at first, but realized what would be even better is if we can actually have various inputs go only to certain speakers, if we desire. So say there's a small band playing we might want to have the vocals go only to the centre speaker, and we might want the guitar to go on only left/right, or perhaps have some instruments to left and some to right.

We're looking at this mixer, it has tons of options:

https://www.long-mcquade.com/24925/...GP32X_-_32-Channel_Premium_Mixing_Console.htm

Not sure if that's over budget yet though, but I figure if we're doing this from ground up may as well get something more than what we need as it opens up more future options if we want to change stuff.

One option that looks interesting is the 4 group busses. I THINK those may do what I want. Each channel has a button to turn those on/off. So I could assign the centre speaker to one of those groups, then for any input that I wnat to send there I just turn on, and I can turn stereo on/off. If it's on, I can then pan to the speaker I want, as well. So I think I should be able to do the LCR setup that I want with this. someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Though I'm even thinking, we don't really NEED the left/right speakers to be true stereo, we might just make those mono. That reduces the amount of amp channels that we need.

For amp, I'm looking at this one:

https://www.long-mcquade.com/26490/...nsity_6000_Watt_4_Channel_Power_Amplifier.htm

I heard of that company before but never used their products, are they any good? I see them show up everywhere especially when looking at mixers so they seem to be decently big.

Though amps there's tons of options, so not really dead set on a specific one yet. Even the console, not sure if that will blow the budget or not. We still need to buy a computer and laptop because those were stolen too.

Also the particular mixer I linked to has an EQ for the stereo side, but it does not apply for the other outputs, so I probably want an EQ for the centre speaker. It's actually good that it's separate as accoustics will be different and I can adjust each EQ as required. So looking at something like this:

https://www.long-mcquade.com/1193/P...rocessors/ART_Pro_Audio/Single_31_band_EQ.htm


Think all this should work well? Any other brands you recommend? I've been talking with others at the church too throwing ideas around so think we're pretty much ok, but always nice to have more opinions. I know this type of equipment in general but not an expert either.

 

[sdifox]

Lulz you upped the budget in a hurry. How big is the space? The one you linked to only has 1 matrix out and 1 mono out. you need to figure out how many zones you want, it might just be simpler and easier to put one mix board per zone and just split the input signals and plug it in when needed.

 

[DigDog]

oh dear ..

ok, so what i omitted until now is .. do you really need the voice to only come out of the central speaker?

i'm saying, this would be the case *only* if the center speaker, and the left (or right) are very far away from each other.
in audio, because of human physiology, if you send a signal to BOTH the left and right channel, equally, then that sound will be perceived as coming from in front of you.

assuming you place the central speaker .. actually in the center .. then you should not really need a separate track.


i'm sure if i was there, and could see the place, i would be able to give you better advice ..

 

[Red Squirrel]

oh dear ..

ok, so what i omitted until now is .. do you really need the voice to only come out of the central speaker?

i'm saying, this would be the case *only* if the center speaker, and the left (or right) are very far away from each other.
in audio, because of human physiology, if you send a signal to BOTH the left and right channel, equally, then that sound will be perceived as coming from in front of you.

assuming you place the central speaker .. actually in the center .. then you should not really need a separate track.


i'm sure if i was there, and could see the place, i would be able to give you better advice ..

Yeah that's correct. The way we did it before is we only turned on the centre speaker during a speech and slightly turn the side ones as we still sometimes want it to come out, but very low. During music we'd have all 3 going at full power, but we had no way to control it so that a certain channel is louder, or only going to one speaker.

I find with speech, it sounds better if it's only coming mostly from the centre. I was JUST there like an hour ago, I should have checked here first, could have taken a pic.

The way it's configured is the ceiling is a typical church ceiling, so maybe 10 feet high at the walls and like 50 feet high at the centre. The centre speaker is hung from the centre, and the side speakers are on the wall on both sides, about 8 feet off the ground. If I had to guess they are about 50 feet apart.

Though I was discussing with someone else the possibility that we treat the two sides speakers as mono. Stereo is not really that practical because of how far they are. If someone is sitting right to the side a stereo track is going to not sound right. the side ones are mostly complimentary for when there is music while the centre covers the whole place and works well for speech.

And yeah that console I linked is quite expensive, so I'm not sure we're going with that price range but someone had suggested it.

 

[destrekor]

Op you must test the system with Carmina Burana :awe:

:thumbsup:

 

[sdifox]

Maybe a dmc is what you need. Very flexible. Couple it to an android table or computer.


http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/XR18

 

[Red Squirrel]

Not a fan of anything that requires a tablet/phone app etc... these things go out of date way too fast, and it tends to be very device specific, usually apple. So in 10 years from now when the ipad dies, it could be hard to find a replacement that is compatible.

Though I think I may have found what we can do. Since most if all of our inputs are mono anyway, instead of driving the left/right speakers as stereo, we can drive them as mono, hooked up to the "left" channel, then drive the centre speaker through the "right" channel. If we want to send something to centre we pan right, if we want it on the side we pan left, if we want to blend, we pan accordingly. Does this sound crazy? Would also be able to get away with using only 2 amp channels. The side speakers would be connected to some kind of splitter. We don't need as much power going to those anyway. We have other auxiliary speakers but they would just be hooked up to mono out or something equivalent and have a mix of everything.

 

[sdifox]

I give up. Everytime I give you a solution you change your requirement :biggrin: and that board can be controlled from a pc or mac.

 

[Red Squirrel]

I'm just throwing ideas around, I'm not dead set on anything yet.

 

[JeffMD]

How big is the space... do you have a high ceiling? do you have "wings" ? If any of this you may want to get a professional to take a look. I don't think I would want to throw this project at a anandtech forum post. Oh and toss a security system into the mix.

 

[Red Squirrel]

It's not a megachurch or anything like that so no need of getting a pro, I'd say it's maybe 50 (side to side) feet by 100 feet, but I'm just guestimating. Ceiling is 10ft or so at the sides and maybe close to 50 at the peek which goes down the middle front to back, centre speaker is at the peak. There are two rooms one on each side, where stage goes deeper between the two rooms. We are not touching the speakers though, just adding new amp and mixer.

Worse case we set it up the same way it was, but figure may as well take opportunity to get equipment that has features we did not have and set it up a different way than what we had, to give us better control.

I'm starting to lean towards making the two side speakers mono though as that will simplify a lot. Left/right channels on a mixer are only two channels, they don't HAVE to be treated as left/right, so might lean towards making "left" control the side speakers and "right" control centre. Talking with someone else who knows a lot about this stuff as well so I'm not really on my own here. I have a decent idea of what to do but always nice to get extra ideas.

And yeah we probably should look at a security system...not my call though, but I'm sure it will get talked about.