Chrysler to file for bankruptcy

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,133
38
91
Considering they almost went bankrupt in the 1980s, I think this was inevitable.

This was a headline on CNN.com
Here one from MSNBC:http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30489906/

DETROIT - Talks between Chrysler LLC's lenders and the Treasury Department to reduce the automaker's $6.9 billion in secured debt and keep it out of bankruptcy protection have disintegrated, a person familiar with the talks said early Thursday.

Chrysler's fate was in the hands of about 40 hedge funds that hold about 30 percent of its debt. Although four banks holding 70 percent of the debt had agreed to erase it for $2 billion, the hedge funds were holding out for a better deal.

To entice the hedge funds into going along with the banks, the government on Wednesday afternoon added $250 million to the $2 billion that the banks had settled for and gave the hedge funds a 6 p.m. deadline to work it out, two people briefed on the talks said.

All of the people spoke to The Associated Press on condition of anonymity because the negotiations were private.

Michigan Gov. Jennifer Granholm, speaking in Lansing at a news conference about the swine flu, had urged them to consider Chrysler's 54,000 employees.

"On behalf of Michigan, on behalf of the thousands of people who will be affected if this company is forced into bankruptcy, I am publicly asking these hedge funds to not be greedy but to do what the banks have done and what everyone else around the table has done ? take the concessions," she said.

'One shot'
But several of the funds came back with their own different counterproposals, leaving the Treasury Department to bargain with 46 funds, the person said. Treasury extended the deadline into the evening, but when it appeared there was no central authority to negotiate with, decided to end talks around midnight.

"This is the one shot when everybody had a chance to say yes or no," the person said. "You had 46 different people here, and they said no."

The collapse of the talks means Chrysler will almost certainly head for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection, unless a deal can be salvaged by the government's deadline of 11:59 p.m. Thursday. Others briefed on the negotiations said that in order for Chrysler to get a deal without bankruptcy, it needs to get 100 percent of its creditors to sign on.

But bankruptcy doesn't mean the end of the company. The people said plan B is for Chrysler to file for Chapter 11 with funding help from the government. Under the bankruptcy law that Chrysler would file under, a judge would decide how much creditors would get, but is likely to go with any settlement agreed to by the majority of the creditors, the people said.

If it files for bankruptcy, Chrysler would continue operating and Fiat would still sign on as a partner on Thursday, the people said. The government already has promised to back Chrysler's warranties in an effort to allay customers' fears that the automaker wouldn't be around to honor them.

The government in March rejected Chrysler's restructuring plan and gave it 30 days to make another effort, including a tie-up with Fiat. The company, which has borrowed $4 billion from the federal government and needs billions more, faces a Thursday night deadline to cut labor costs, slash debt and take on a partner if it wants more aid. President Barack Obama said Wednesday night while the lender talks were still ongoing that he was "very hopeful" that deals can be worked out to keep Chrysler LLC a viable automaker, and more hopeful than he was a month ago that the company will stay in business.

On Sunday, the Canadian Auto Workers ratified concessions to the automaker, and the United Auto Workers in the United States reached a tentative cost-cutting deal that members overwhelmingly ratified Wednesday night.

The UAW agreement, which will take effect May 4, meets Treasury requirements for continued loans to Chrysler Corp., and includes commitments from Fiat to manufacture a new small car in one of Chrysler's U.S. facilities and to share key technology with Chrysler.

"This has been a challenging time filled with anxiety and uncertainty for our membership," said UAW President Ron Gettelfinger. "Our members have responded by accepting an agreement that is painful for our active and retired workers, but which helps preserve U.S. manufacturing jobs and gives Chrysler a chance to survive."

Meanwhile, the Fiat partnership means Chrysler CEO Robert Nardelli could be out of a job. In an April e-mail to employees, he said that if the deal is finalized, Chrysler would be run by a new board appointed by the government and Fiat. The new board, Nardelli wrote, would pick a CEO "with Fiat's concurrence."

Sergio Marchionne, CEO of the Italian automaker, told reporters earlier this month that he could run Chrysler. Obama said Wednesday that Fiat's management "has actually done a good job transforming their industry."
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
:thumbsup: Good to see the creditors standing up to the whitehouse and telling them to get bent (re 29cents on the dollar).

This is what should have happened last fall.
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,133
38
91
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
:thumbsup: Good to see the creditors standing up to the whitehouse and telling them to get bent (re 29cents on the dollar).

This is what should have happened last fall.

With car companies' revenues in free-fall, I'd be curious to see what they get in a firesale.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
:thumbsup: Good to see the creditors standing up to the whitehouse and telling them to get bent (re 29cents on the dollar).

This is what should have happened last fall.

With car companies' revenues in free-fall, I'd be curious to see what they get in a firesale.

Obviously there were some creditors who believe they will get more than what the whitehose was trying to force on them.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
51,953
44,819
136
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
:thumbsup: Good to see the creditors standing up to the whitehouse and telling them to get bent (re 29cents on the dollar).

This is what should have happened last fall.

All major creditors agreed to the deal, the hedge funds are throwing a wrench into the machine in the hopes they can recover more out of bankruptcy, by picking over it's bones in liquidation, or even getting the gov to cover the bond defaults one way or another.

Once it goes into Chapter 11 the odds that litigation will collapse the whole shebang increase drastically.

 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,133
38
91
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
:thumbsup: Good to see the creditors standing up to the whitehouse and telling them to get bent (re 29cents on the dollar).

This is what should have happened last fall.

With car companies' revenues in free-fall, I'd be curious to see what they get in a firesale.

Obviously there were some creditors who believe they will get more than what the whitehose was trying to force on them.

We will see. But with the entire industry at overcapacity and hemmoraging money, I can't imagine there being many takers. Worse, Fiat was going to replace Chrysler technology with their own. Maybe they're trying to sell to Indians or Chinese?
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: K1052
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
:thumbsup: Good to see the creditors standing up to the whitehouse and telling them to get bent (re 29cents on the dollar).

This is what should have happened last fall.

All major creditors agreed to the deal, the hedge funds are throwing a wrench into the machine in the hopes they can recover more out of bankruptcy, by picking over it's bones in liquidation, or even getting the gov to cover the bond defaults one way or another.

Once it goes into Chapter 11 the odds that litigation will collapse the whole shebang increase drastically.


And they are legally able to do just what they are doing. They didn't have to take the raw deal and they didn't. Just because some of them bent over for the whitehouse doesn't mean that others should just take it too. Let the process work and stop messing with the private sector already. There is a reason we have things like BK in our system - let it work.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
I am shocked, shocked I tell you! Too big to fail!

Honestly though as stupid an idea as it was to prop up these auto makers. At least we arent going to repeat the mistake more than once.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
:thumbsup: Good to see the creditors standing up to the whitehouse and telling them to get bent (re 29cents on the dollar).

This is what should have happened last fall.

With car companies' revenues in free-fall, I'd be curious to see what they get in a firesale.

Obviously there were some creditors who believe they will get more than what the whitehose was trying to force on them.

We will see. But with the entire industry at overcapacity and hemmoraging money, I can't imagine there being many takers. Worse, Fiat was going to replace Chrysler technology with their own. Maybe they're trying to sell to Indians or Chinese?

At the prices these guys will be selling for a competitor may take the opportunity to take them out at a cheap cost. Integrate technoligies they like and bury the rest.
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,133
38
91
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
:thumbsup: Good to see the creditors standing up to the whitehouse and telling them to get bent (re 29cents on the dollar).

This is what should have happened last fall.

With car companies' revenues in free-fall, I'd be curious to see what they get in a firesale.

Obviously there were some creditors who believe they will get more than what the whitehose was trying to force on them.

We will see. But with the entire industry at overcapacity and hemmoraging money, I can't imagine there being many takers. Worse, Fiat was going to replace Chrysler technology with their own. Maybe they're trying to sell to Indians or Chinese?

At the prices these guys will be selling for a competitor may take the opportunity to take them out at a cheap cost. Integrate technoligies they like and bury the rest.

Why? What asstes does Chrysler have, except Jeep, that others would want?
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
51,953
44,819
136
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: K1052
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
:thumbsup: Good to see the creditors standing up to the whitehouse and telling them to get bent (re 29cents on the dollar).

This is what should have happened last fall.

All major creditors agreed to the deal, the hedge funds are throwing a wrench into the machine in the hopes they can recover more out of bankruptcy, by picking over it's bones in liquidation, or even getting the gov to cover the bond defaults one way or another.

Once it goes into Chapter 11 the odds that litigation will collapse the whole shebang increase drastically.


And they are legally able to do just what they are doing. They didn't have to take the raw deal and they didn't. Just because some of them bent over for the whitehouse doesn't mean that others should just take it too. Let the process work and stop messing with the private sector already. There is a reason we have things like BK in our system - let it work.

There is certainly no guarantee that the funds will recover more than they were offered in the deal depending what happens. They're gambling that they will mostly at the expense of the company and majority credit holders.

The government already saved a bunch of hedge funds and banks by keeping the CDS dam from breaking and wreaking disaster on anything it touched and in part it seems like the funds are now betting on the gov to cover them in any event (even if they actively cause it). Congress isn't that stupid and might just get the initiative to legislate hedge funds out of existence or put them under as much regulation/oversight as legally possible.



 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: Dari


Why? What asstes does Chrysler have, except Jeep, that others would want?

The name and ability to eliminate your competition for good.
Could be your competitor buys them for pennies on the dollar, keeps the brand, the lines, and competes against you. Or you can buy the company for pennies on the dollar, take what you like and close the rest down shrinking the market.

Or you could utilize their facilities for your own production. Some of these factories probably cost more to build than would cost to acquire the entire company and workforce.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: K1052
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: K1052
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
:thumbsup: Good to see the creditors standing up to the whitehouse and telling them to get bent (re 29cents on the dollar).

This is what should have happened last fall.

All major creditors agreed to the deal, the hedge funds are throwing a wrench into the machine in the hopes they can recover more out of bankruptcy, by picking over it's bones in liquidation, or even getting the gov to cover the bond defaults one way or another.

Once it goes into Chapter 11 the odds that litigation will collapse the whole shebang increase drastically.


And they are legally able to do just what they are doing. They didn't have to take the raw deal and they didn't. Just because some of them bent over for the whitehouse doesn't mean that others should just take it too. Let the process work and stop messing with the private sector already. There is a reason we have things like BK in our system - let it work.

There is certainly no guarantee that the funds will recover more than they were offered in the deal depending what happens. They're gambling that they will mostly at the expense of the company and majority credit holders.

The government already saved a bunch of hedge funds and banks by keeping the CDS dam from breaking and wreaking disaster on anything it touched and in part it seems like the funds are now betting on the gov to cover them in any event (even if they actively cause it). Congress isn't that stupid and might just get the initiative to legislate hedge funds out of existence or put them under as much regulation/oversight as legally possible.

There are contracts in place and it's arrogant and more than a tad over-reaching for the whitehouse to demand everyone take a bath(less than 30 cents on the dollar) just because they say so. The statement from the whitehouse is absurd as well. These people have every right to not take the deal and here we have the whitehouse basically trying to publicly shame and bully them for exercising their rights.
 

boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
18,883
641
126
You guys do realize that the initial filing will be Chapter 11 correct? With no one willing or able to finance the bankruptcy, the government will be funding this. I guess I don't have to tell you who the government is. IMO, the chances of this going sour and ending up being a Chapter 7 are near 100%. What then, are the ramifications of that?

I bring up the Chapter 11 question because some of you sound like you think they are going directly to liquidation. Maybe you're just ahead of me on this.

The wrinkle in this is the Credit Default Swap angle. These will have to be paid. My question is where is the money coming from for those? Are the taxpayers indirectly paying for these? In other words who is responsible for paying off these bond holders and are they on the government dole?

Probably showing my ignorance here, but I honestly don't know.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
51,953
44,819
136
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

There are contracts in place and it's arrogant and more than a tad over-reaching for the whitehouse to demand everyone take a bath(less than 30 cents on the dollar) just because they say so. The statement from the whitehouse is absurd as well. These people have every right to not take the deal and here we have the whitehouse basically trying to publicly shame and bully them for exercising their rights.

You're right, it's the hedge funds funeral and they have every legal right to it (but it's unfortunate everyone else involved has to pay the tab).
 

TheoPetro

Banned
Nov 30, 2004
3,499
1
0
Originally posted by: boomerang
You guys do realize that the initial filing will be Chapter 11 correct? With no one willing or able to finance the bankruptcy, the government will be funding this. I guess I don't have to tell you who the government is. IMO, the chances of this going sour and ending up being a Chapter 7 are near 100%. What then, are the ramifications of that?

I bring up the Chapter 11 question because some of you sound like you think they are going directly to liquidation. Maybe you're just ahead of me on this.

The wrinkle in this is the Credit Default Swap angle. These will have to be paid. My question is where is the money coming from for those? Are the taxpayers indirectly paying for these? In other words who is responsible for paying off these bond holders and are they on the government dole?

Probably showing my ignorance here, but I honestly don't know.

Agree 100%

I dont understand why a bankruptcy judge (barring any political pressure) would allow them to go into a CH11. IMO they are not a sustainable business in this environment and I dont know how much the management of that company is willing to restructure. This seems like it will be one long tax drain for years to come.
 

LTC8K6

Lifer
Mar 10, 2004
28,520
1,575
126
What bankruptcy judge?

This isn't a normal bankruptcy. It will be managed by the government. The deals we already heard about will be made. This is just an excuse to make the deals with the UAW and FIAT and the government to get the shares that have already been talked about.

What's left will then go into a normal bankruptcy with a judge.

http://www.motorauthority.com/...ollowing-alliance.html
 

TheoPetro

Banned
Nov 30, 2004
3,499
1
0
Originally posted by: LTC8K6
What bankruptcy judge?

This isn't a normal bankruptcy. It will be managed by the government. The deals we already heard about will be made. This is just an excuse to make the deals with the UAW and FIAT and the government to get the shares that have already been talked about.

What's left will then go into a normal bankruptcy with a judge.

http://www.motorauthority.com/...ollowing-alliance.html

Isnt democracy at work beautiful to watch? When the shit hits the fan its just one big good ol boy network.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
51,953
44,819
136
Originally posted by: TheoPetro
Originally posted by: LTC8K6
What bankruptcy judge?

This isn't a normal bankruptcy. It will be managed by the government. The deals we already heard about will be made. This is just an excuse to make the deals with the UAW and FIAT and the government to get the shares that have already been talked about.

What's left will then go into a normal bankruptcy with a judge.

http://www.motorauthority.com/...ollowing-alliance.html

Isnt democracy at work beautiful to watch? When the shit hits the fan its just one big good ol boy network.

The creditors and other parties can (and will) still sue.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: K1052
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

There are contracts in place and it's arrogant and more than a tad over-reaching for the whitehouse to demand everyone take a bath(less than 30 cents on the dollar) just because they say so. The statement from the whitehouse is absurd as well. These people have every right to not take the deal and here we have the whitehouse basically trying to publicly shame and bully them for exercising their rights.

You're right, it's the hedge funds funeral and they have every legal right to it (but it's unfortunate everyone else involved has to pay the tab).

We already poured our money down the drain - no need to pour more down the drain like the whitehouse wants.
 

Budmantom

Lifer
Aug 17, 2002
13,103
1
81
Originally posted by: LTC8K6
What bankruptcy judge?

This isn't a normal bankruptcy. It will be managed by the government. The deals we already heard about will be made. This is just an excuse to make the deals with the UAW and FIAT and the government to get the shares that have already been talked about.

What's left will then go into a normal bankruptcy with a judge.

http://www.motorauthority.com/...ollowing-alliance.html


Obama, he decides who wins and who(the tax payer) loses.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
51,953
44,819
136
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: BlahBlahYouToo
what happens to our $4B?

vaporized and likely more will be vaporized as well...

Terms of the loan gave the US gov priority over all other creditors. If Chrysler ends up getting liquidated they will be paid back first. Whatever is left goes to the other bondholders and the shareholders get nothing.