Chrysler tech center workers may have lost jobs to H-1B contractors

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: neodyn55
Don't tar all H1 holders with the same feather. I know lots that get paid well above market wage for the jobs they do.

Of course, all of them have studies here at either the undergraduate or graduate level.

By means of a blanket ban, you would be ridding these people as well.

That's true...but we'd also be opening up jobs for Americans...assuming that those jobs aren't then offshored.

 

[OutHouse]

Originally posted by: Atreus21
I sympathize with the workers who were laid off. But like it or not, lower wages to employees means the company can lower prices on products in order to be competitive, which means the consumer will save money. I don't say all employees should be paid dirt. I say that companies, just like consumers, will look for the lowest price for a product (in this case labor), and that's a good thing.

OMG you cant be this dumb.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: SkoorbFace it, H1Bs are a non-issue. They represent a pitiful percentage of workers and most of them are well educated and a net gain for this country, quite unlike the magnitudes more numerous people without highschool degrees who come in illegally. They should be the real target of immigration concern.

But they're also taking up nice middle class jobs--the ones that we as Americans covet and highly value. Our public policy should be to have American citizens fill these jobs and to work to train enough (but not an oversupply) of Americans to fill these jobs if there is a real, actual shortage.

Americans first!

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
[.To start with they only brought in the illegal Mexican workers to pick the fruit and vegtables because they were willing to work so much cheaper (because of the strong dollar and difference in the cost of living between Mexico/US). People turned a blind eye to it because it meant cheaper food.

Then the border states got greedy and started hiring them to mow their lawns, nanny their kids, clean their pools, etc. They got away with that so they started using them to do other undesireable jobs at low wages and the whole thing snowballed into the problem we have now.

Is anybody surprised that now we have educated people wanting to stay here? I know I'm not and if you are you shouldn't be, it was only a matter of time. Until WE are willing to tackle the WHOLE problem all I can say is:

Welcome to my nightmare
I think you're gonna like it
I think you're gonna feel that you belong
We sweat laugh and scream here
'cuz life is just a dream here
You know inside you feel right at home here
Welcome to my nightmare
Welcome to my breakdown
Yeah

:roll: @ quoting Alice Cooper

This isn't about educated people wanting to stay, in fact the guest workers aren't doing anything wrong, it's Chrysler. The guest workers are probably as confused and anxious about this as anybody.

 

[Atreus21]

Originally posted by: Citrix

Originally posted by: Atreus21
I sympathize with the workers who were laid off. But like it or not, lower wages to employees means the company can lower prices on products in order to be competitive, which means the consumer will save money. I don't say all employees should be paid dirt. I say that companies, just like consumers, will look for the lowest price for a product (in this case labor), and that's a good thing.

OMG you cant be this dumb.

What's dumb about it?

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

Originally posted by: SkoorbFace it, H1Bs are a non-issue. They represent a pitiful percentage of workers and most of them are well educated and a net gain for this country, quite unlike the magnitudes more numerous people without highschool degrees who come in illegally. They should be the real target of immigration concern.

But they're also taking up nice middle class jobs--the ones that we as Americans covet and highly value. Our public policy should be to have American citizens fill these jobs and to work to train enough (but not an oversupply) of Americans to fill these jobs if there is a real, actual shortage.

Americans first!

Just because a global company employs Americans, thus increasing payroll, thus raising prices on its product, doesnt mean people will buy it anyway "because the company employs Americans". Please. People may care if something is MADE in America, but realistically no one gives a rat's ass who makes it.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
[.To start with they only brought in the illegal Mexican workers to pick the fruit and vegtables because they were willing to work so much cheaper (because of the strong dollar and difference in the cost of living between Mexico/US). People turned a blind eye to it because it meant cheaper food.

Then the border states got greedy and started hiring them to mow their lawns, nanny their kids, clean their pools, etc. They got away with that so they started using them to do other undesireable jobs at low wages and the whole thing snowballed into the problem we have now.

Is anybody surprised that now we have educated people wanting to stay here? I know I'm not and if you are you shouldn't be, it was only a matter of time. Until WE are willing to tackle the WHOLE problem all I can say is:

Welcome to my nightmare
I think you're gonna like it
I think you're gonna feel that you belong
We sweat laugh and scream here
'cuz life is just a dream here
You know inside you feel right at home here
Welcome to my nightmare
Welcome to my breakdown
Yeah

:roll: @ quoting Alice Cooper

This isn't about educated people wanting to stay, in fact the guest workers aren't doing anything wrong, it's Chrysler. The guest workers are probably as confused and anxious about this as anybody.

I don't know, but it takes two to tango. I personally think the majority of the guest workers want to stay and that enables Chrysler to pull this stunt.

Obviously if they had no guest workers wanting to stay here they couldn't do what they're doing, no??

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
[.To start with they only brought in the illegal Mexican workers to pick the fruit and vegtables because they were willing to work so much cheaper (because of the strong dollar and difference in the cost of living between Mexico/US). People turned a blind eye to it because it meant cheaper food.

Then the border states got greedy and started hiring them to mow their lawns, nanny their kids, clean their pools, etc. They got away with that so they started using them to do other undesireable jobs at low wages and the whole thing snowballed into the problem we have now.

Is anybody surprised that now we have educated people wanting to stay here? I know I'm not and if you are you shouldn't be, it was only a matter of time. Until WE are willing to tackle the WHOLE problem all I can say is:

Welcome to my nightmare
I think you're gonna like it
I think you're gonna feel that you belong
We sweat laugh and scream here
'cuz life is just a dream here
You know inside you feel right at home here
Welcome to my nightmare
Welcome to my breakdown
Yeah

:roll: @ quoting Alice Cooper

This isn't about educated people wanting to stay, in fact the guest workers aren't doing anything wrong, it's Chrysler. The guest workers are probably as confused and anxious about this as anybody.

I don't know, but it takes two to tango. I personally think the majority of the guest workers want to stay and that enables Chrysler to pull this stunt.

Obviously if they had no guest workers wanting to stay here they couldn't do what they're doing, no??

Of course they want to stay but the question is should they be able too. I don't believe so since they are not needed.

 

[piasabird]

Just replace everyone with Mexicans. It is the Liberals that want open borders right along with a lot of Republicans. Why do they want open borders? They want to fire Americans and hire replacements. I dont see this as just a republican or democratic problem. This is an Anti-American-Worker problem.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
[.To start with they only brought in the illegal Mexican workers to pick the fruit and vegtables because they were willing to work so much cheaper (because of the strong dollar and difference in the cost of living between Mexico/US). People turned a blind eye to it because it meant cheaper food.

Then the border states got greedy and started hiring them to mow their lawns, nanny their kids, clean their pools, etc. They got away with that so they started using them to do other undesireable jobs at low wages and the whole thing snowballed into the problem we have now.

Is anybody surprised that now we have educated people wanting to stay here? I know I'm not and if you are you shouldn't be, it was only a matter of time. Until WE are willing to tackle the WHOLE problem all I can say is:

Welcome to my nightmare
I think you're gonna like it
I think you're gonna feel that you belong
We sweat laugh and scream here
'cuz life is just a dream here
You know inside you feel right at home here
Welcome to my nightmare
Welcome to my breakdown
Yeah

:roll: @ quoting Alice Cooper

This isn't about educated people wanting to stay, in fact the guest workers aren't doing anything wrong, it's Chrysler. The guest workers are probably as confused and anxious about this as anybody.

I don't know, but it takes two to tango. I personally think the majority of the guest workers want to stay and that enables Chrysler to pull this stunt.

Obviously if they had no guest workers wanting to stay here they couldn't do what they're doing, no??

Of course they want to stay but the question is should they be able too. I don't believe so since they are not needed.

I don't think they should be able to either.... but why should I get all excited about it? At least these people can speak English, are educated, and are doing jobs that don't compete directly with me. :shocked:

As far as I'm concerned I'd rather we brought in 12 million of these people and sent the 12 million illegals that are uneducated and speak liitle to no English back home.

Or we could do the sane thing and send them all back and then let in the best of the best as we need them.

 

[blackangst1]

I find it interesting how many of you are against LEGAL immigration.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: Atreus21
I sympathize with the workers who were laid off. But like it or not, lower wages to employees means the company can lower prices on products in order to be competitive, which means the consumer will save money. I don't say all employees should be paid dirt. I say that companies, just like consumers, will look for the lowest price for a product (in this case labor), and that's a good thing.

The consumer will save money?

False.

You're only considering the front end costs and ignoring the back-end costs. What about the costs to the taxpayers of having to pay unemployment benefits, welfare, health care, and education costs for unemployed and underemployed Americans and their families?

Wouldn't it make more sense for an American to get paid more money than the illegal, increasing the price of cars a little bit in exchange for having lower taxes or more money for the government to invest in other areas?

Which is cheaper for Americans?

Pay a slightly lower price for a vehicle and end up paying:

Health care -- for the unemployed/underemployed American and the H-1B worker's families. Also, unemployment benefits for the unemployed American, the costs of educating the unemployed American's children (because he can no longer pay the high taxes he used to), and possibly welfare.

OR

Pay a slightly higher amount for a vehicle.

Hmmm...which is really cheaper?

That doesn't even take into account the huge social costs of having unemployed and underemployed Americans, the costs of potential criminal activity, and the costs that Americans suffer from living in fear of losing their jobs. (I wonder how much that costs us in terms of Prozac, Valium, high blood pressure, associated medical costs, and the negative effects it has on children?)

It's very depressing that so few Americans "get it" and that so few Americans understand simple, real world economics. When you increase the supply of labor relative to demand, wages and standard of living fall. Are Americans going to need a big dose of Marxist ideology until they figure it out? Will global labor arbitrage pull Marx out of his grave?

Thought for Labor Day: Conservative Dogma Pulling Marx Out of His Grave

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Admittedly, I didn't read the article. Why did the company hire them if not for lower wages? ]Because at the time there was a shortage of Americans qualified to do the job. Now qualified Americans are being laid off and the guest workers are being kept on because they are cheaper.

You believe that crap? There never was a shortage and if there was one, then either wages needed to increase (market forces at work) and/or Americans would train to enter the field and get those high wages. (Ever wonder why so many people climb all over each other in the struggle to get into medical school?)

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Admittedly, I didn't read the article. Why did the company hire them if not for lower wages?

Because at the time there was a shortage of Americans qualified to do the job. Now qualified Americans are being laid off and the guest workers are being kept on because they are cheaper

You believe that crap? There never was a shortage and if there was one, then either wages needed to increase (market forces at work) and/or Americans would train to enter the field and get those high wages. (Ever wonder why so many people climb all over each other in the struggle to get into medical school?)

You have the quoting sequence all fucked up

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: Atreus21
I still stick to the fact that forcing prices down is part of capitalism, simply because that's the nature of competition. Yes, it will force Americans out of business and out of work, but that only means they need to reallocate to another profession.

Would you like fries with that?

Note that the cost of "reallocating to another profession" could be high. Can you imagine how difficult and expensive it would be to invest yet more time and money gambling on further college education after you already have children to take care of and a mortgage to pay (and possibly student loans)? Yes, it is gambling. After all, what if you obtain more college education and can't find a job in the field? (We already have boatloads of unemployed and underemployed-involuntarily-out-of-field MBAs, lawyers, and even PhD scientists.)

Sorry, I'm right in the middle of a rudimentary micro-economics class, so all this is fresh on my mind, and I'm thinking in terms of the basics. I think my teacher told me a statistic, interestingly, that people who were forced to reallocate after being laid off by cheaper wage employees were found to have better incomes in their new job. Of course, that's just on the word of my teacher. I don't have a source.

I don't buy it. Over the past couple years our nation's economy has not created enough jobs to keep up with population growth. (We need about 150,000 new jobs every month merely to keep pace.) Here's a link to a list of links to commentary on the nation's monthly jobs reports:

http://outsourcing.yuku.com/topic/366

Perhaps you need to leave the academy and explore the real world? I used to support pure laissez-faire capitalism too until I had to confront the reality of the job market in the real world along with the tremendous oversupply of practitioners in my professional field. (That's impossible! It's impossible to have advanced degrees and not be able to easily find a job in the field! Our economists and politicians say it's so! Education is the solution to our economic problems!)

Personally, I've accepted the fact that capitalism is ruthless, and that it has to be. Comparitive advantage means we should do what we do best, and others should do what they do best.

But...does comparative advantage apply when capital can freely move across borders or is what we're seeing in the case of global labor arbitrage a case of absolute advantage? Is comparative advantage an absolute or does it rely on certain conditions and assumptions? Has the notion of comparative advantage become, in essence, a religious dogma?

Does Comparative Advantage apply to Offshoring? Statement for US-China Commission Hearing, May 19, 2005

What's your major? It's easy and comfortable to be a smug college student until the reality of the employment market hits, but do you really feel certain that you'll find a decent job in your field and that you won't be slinging french fries?

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Just because a global company employs Americans, thus increasing payroll, thus raising prices on its product, doesnt mean people will buy it anyway "because the company employs Americans". Please. People may care if something is MADE in America, but realistically no one gives a rat's ass who makes it.

You raise a good point. If businesses that operate in the U.S. are forced, by law, to hire Americans, then they'll offshore the work. That's why we also need tariffs.

The choice is -- merge your economy and labor market with the billions of impoverished people in the world and allow the American standard of living to average out with that of the billions of impoverished people in the world, essentially transforming the nation into an impoverished third world country, or -- erect barriers to global labor arbitrage to prevent Americans from joining the third world.

 

[ZeGermans]

DEY TUK UR JERBS!

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Just because a global company employs Americans, thus increasing payroll, thus raising prices on its product, doesnt mean people will buy it anyway "because the company employs Americans". Please. People may care if something is MADE in America, but realistically no one gives a rat's ass who makes it.

You raise a good point. If businesses that operate in the U.S. are forced, by law, to hire Americans, then they'll offshore the work. That's why we also need tariffs.

The choice is -- merge your economy and labor market with the billions of impoverished people in the world and allow the American standard of living to average out with that of the billions of impoverished people in the world, essentially transforming the nation into an impoverished third world country, or -- erect barriers to global labor arbitrage to prevent Americans from joining the third world.

The other problem with forcing companies to employ Americans and only operate within our borders (which, of course, will NEVER EVER happen at this point) is you would see hyperinflation like weve never seen before.

Then we'd REALLY be fucked.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

The other problem with forcing companies to employ Americans and only operate within our borders (which, of course, will NEVER EVER happen at this point) is you would see hyperinflation like weve never seen before.

Then we'd REALLY be fucked.

There would be some inflation as wages increase and unemployed and underemployment decrease. Prices and wages would then equilibrate to American free market levels. What's wrong with having an internal American free market?

I think we'd be better off this way because it's hard to consume more than you produce and at least this way Americans would be producing instead of borrowing, selling off hard assets to foreigners, and consuming. In reality there is no free lunch--the wealth has to be produced before it can be consumed.

The issue is--do we pay for our consumption by doing the work needed to produce the wealth we consume--or do we borrow money now while paying back the loans by exchanging hard assets (land, real estate, business ownership)?

Another issue is--who benefits from all of this? Americans can "compete" and produce goods and services that other nations will purchase just as soon as they are willing to work for third world wages. In the third world a small amount of people own the capital and take a very large amount of workers' contributions to the act of production as profit and wealth for themselves, paying their employees low wages. So, would that be good for Americans? Would it be good for Americans to work for third world wages and to be happy with only a small portion of their contribution to the act of production while the small percentage of Americans who own the businesses become even wealthier?

Obviously, my answer is that we'd be better off having higher wages, less unemployment and underemployment, consequent higher prices, and a more equal distribution of wealth than we would be to have lower prices and a third world standard of living while having a tiny percentage of Americans living like kings.

It's also worth mentioning that with a healthier economy comes lower taxes as a result of having more people paying middle class amounts of taxes.

These issues will all play out over the next several decades. As anyone who's read my commentary before knows, my prediction is the following:

The nation's population will explode towards third world levels, the prices of natural resources (land, clean air, clean water, ore, minerals, etc.) will increase, global labor arbitrage will continue to rack the nation's labor market, the politicians, the economists, the pundits, and the media will continue to peddle education (for jobs that no longer exist) as the solution to our economic problems to the masses as though it were an opiate, and the masses will gleefully consume the opiate. The United States will have then transformed itself into a third world country. Our contemporaries will then fondly remember the middle class of their youth from the Seventies, Eighties, and Nineties and wonder how it all fell apart. Historians will speak of the United States as we now speak of the Roman Empire. The Chinese, having lowered their population and having acquired a better understanding of economics and international trade, will then have the world's largest middle class and will be the world's new economic superpower.

 

[ericlp]

Originally posted by: BoberFett

I say what's good for the goose is good for the gander. If we can allow millions of Mexicans into the US to do construction, then we can allow millions of Indians here to do white collar jobs.

My best friend is a carpenter and has been scrounging for work the last couple years. He repeatedly gets outbid by contractors who have teams of Mexicans working for fast food wages. So a couple of white collar workers get replaced by Indians and I'm supposed to care? Boo-fucking-hoo. Cry me a river. Stop voting for politicians who pander to the illegals and the corporations and maybe I'll be sympathetic. America is getting exactly what it votes for.

But then again, what do I know? I'm just an RPB.[/quote]

Damn,

Something I agree with you on. But it's not just that. It goes down to these white trash idiot's that buy crap from Walmart and Target that get 90% of the goods made in China. Everyone wants a CHEAP america so everyones vote is cheap...

You want to make a real difference? Stop buying crap that is made overseas. Hahaha, Tho I think it's kinda too late. I mean, look at apple, dell, gateway, intel, AMD, Seagate, etc...etc... all made well most of it all made in China....

Oh well........

Stop buying Chrysler auto products, easy for me cause I don't own one.

Personally, I could really care less about this since I got out sourced from my job and nothing was done. I mean....... I care... but what can you do??? Move on and apply for a stock boy or check out @ walmart I guess.

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: blackangst1
If the workers who were laid off were union, then I applaud it.

I would do the same if they weren't importing the replacements.

:thumbsup:

 

[rchiu]

If American really need laws to protect their employment from measly 65,000 per year H1B visa holders, (quota as of 2007), there is something wrong with the competitiveness with this country. If that Chrysler tech worker is really skilled, she shouldn't have to rely on union and shouldn't have any problem finding another job. When I decided to leave my tech job last year, I got two offers within 2~3 weeks. There is no shortage of tech jobs out there.

I went through H1B visa to get my Green card, it is the most common way for highly educated people (I have 2 masters myself) to immigrate to this country. And no, company don't just bring us here. I was here since 1990 for school and most of my friends from outside of the US all study here, we only start using H1B after graduation to get a job. We go through the same interview process, and we have much less opportunities as 80% of the company won't deal with people who needs sponsorship.

So start fearmongering against H1B which in arguably jump started the silicon valley and helped this country a great deal.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: rchiu
If American really need laws to protect their employment from measly 65,000 per year H1B visa holders, (quota as of 2007), there is something wrong with the competitiveness with this country. If that Chrysler tech worker is really skilled, she shouldn't have to rely on union and shouldn't have any problem finding another job. When I decided to leave my tech job last year, I got two offers within 2~3 weeks. There is no shortage of tech jobs out there.

I went through H1B visa to get my Green card, it is the most common way for highly educated people (I have 2 masters myself) to immigrate to this country. And no, company don't just bring us here. I was here since 1990 for school and most of my friends from outside of the US all study here, we only start using H1B after graduation to get a job. We go through the same interview process, and we have much less opportunities as 80% of the company won't deal with people who needs sponsorship.

So start fearmongering against H1B which in arguably jump started the silicon valley and helped this country a great deal.

The only reason you were given an H1B visa is because there is/was a shortage of qualified workers. This is still the case in many fields but they shouldn't be used to replace Americans because they work cheaper which is the situation in this case.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: piasabird
Just replace everyone with Mexicans. It is the Liberals that want open borders right along with a lot of Republicans. Why do they want open borders? They want to fire Americans and hire replacements. I dont see this as just a republican or democratic problem. This is an Anti-American-Worker problem.

BINGO!!! Close the damn borders down to keep shit like this from happening.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: blackangst1
I find it interesting how many of you are against LEGAL immigration.

I'm against letting workers into this country on a visa and then firing the US workers simply because they can be replaced with the cheaper foreign labor. If there is truely a shortage of workers, fine, but to simply bring them in to replace others ---> BULLSHIT. Anyone who "applauds" this is a prick and I hope those pricks end with the same fate that they applaud.