Christie: Science and math teachers should be paid more than gym teachers. Agree?

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should science/math teachers be paid more than gym teachers?

  • Yes

  • No

  • Undecided


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Fenixgoon

Lifer
Jun 30, 2003
32,049
10,822
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I disagree with paying science and math teachers more than phys. ed teachers, regardless of what the supply & demand might be (Also, I disagree that there is really a lack of competent science/math majors to fill up the vacant positions. Even if there is such a shortage, due to low-pay, I think the remedy should be an overall increase in base pay for all teachers, regardless of subject). What you are basically doing when you go down that line is lining up all the subject in the order of importance, and funding them accordingly. But who's going to judge which subject is more important, and by what standard? It might start out with just phys. ed, but then what about tech. ed, home-economics, or even English? Who needs to read "Heart of Darkness" or Shakespeare in this day and age when you are bound to earn so much more and "contribute" more if you major in finance or engineering? Some might say, "Creativity helps to stim...." Really? Prove it. How are you going to prove it. That's right. Quantitatively. But can you really measure the worth of education quantitatively? Look back on the great teachers you had in the past, and try to quantitatively measure the impact they had on you. Can you do it? I highly doubt it.

Sounds a bit like black or white logic, doesn't it?

I do agree that there has to be a priority when it comes to funding, such as books, before expensive stadiums, but paying teachers differently according to the subject they teach I don't think is the answer. We should be promoting an atmosphere conducive to teaching, and I don't think this will happen if phys. ed teachers are treated more as 2nd class teachers than they are now. If they get paid less, does it also mean they have less of a voice too in school affairs? Some of you want more performance-based pay, and while I do agree that teachers need to be held more accountable, the problem is, there is no one effective way to measure teacher's performance. And performance-based pay can be quite a thorny issue in education because having teachers compete against each other for more pay can have disasterous effects. Those teachers could be putting their heads together to find more effective ways to teach the students, and be sharing their lesson plans, instead of refusing to share their insight and working alone just because they want more pay.

What we need to do is start demanding more from phys. ed teachers. As someone mentioned, they should be placed in charge of health classes, and if the quality of education they provide is poor, they should be forced to take additional classes to be up to date on the latest findings. And if there is more demand for science/math classes than phys. ed classes, hire one, not two phys. ed teachers, but don't decrease their pay.

Also, many teachers seem to give up teaching not because of low-pay (even though it is a part of the problem) but because they are sick and tired of uncooperative administrators and parents, who are often obstacles in their efforts to help the students.

society already deems math and science more important on account of the demand for those types of jobs and the level of pay they command.

there's a reason math/science/engineer types make fun of all the liberal arts kids who cant get a job.
 

Baptismbyfire

Senior member
Oct 7, 2010
330
0
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Just some musings.

Yeah, I agree that we can't overlook the whole supply-demand thing, but aren't we making a bit of an assumption when we assume that a science/math major who can make big bucks in his field will also be a good teacher? (actually one of the key arguments against raising teacher's pay) Vice versa. There is also no guarantee that an excellent science/math teacher would otherwise have been successful if he originally chose to work for a company instead.

You can't just assume that those with the highest GPA or the most knowledge/experience will be the best teachers. Hell, some of the best teachers I have had wouldn't survive in their field due to their social ineptness and other traits that would have been considered as "faults" in their industry. And some of the smartest people I have met are incapable of clearly explaining to the layman what's going on inside their heads, and did not exactly have the personality suitable to becoming a teacher.

Teaching is not just about smarts. You could even argue that teachers are not the smartest bunch out there, but more goes into teaching than just your intellect or your money-earning potential, especially when you consider the fact that a teacher can radically change a student's life on many levels, not just intellect. There is a reason why teaching is still held to be a calling by some.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,896
7,922
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I think this is somewhere where we can listen to supply and demand. If there is a shortage of science teachers (I haven't really heard that there is), then pay them more to attract more teachers.

^ Not a bad idea.
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,153
0
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This to some degree is fine, but paying by merit quickly turns into paying by who can game the system best. How do you purpose we evaluate merit? Grades? Standardized tests? Who gets along with the administration best?

I see way to many people where I work only do what makes them look good to the detriment of their actual job to be all gungho about changing pay to merit based systems. There's a lot of much greater problems that need to be addressed with the education system.

It's a very good point, and one I've raised before myself in other teacher pay threads:

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?p=32212641&highlight=merit#post32212641

There is no perfect system. Broadly, I suggest that a combination approach is best: standardized test results being a factor, professional evaluations being another, above a certain grade level, student questionnaires/evaluations another, observations of school administrators being another. The professional evaluations would be from people hired by the district who do not work at the school, are done on random days, more than once yearly. The evaluations can get at things like whether the teacher is "teaching the test" in order to game the system, etc. The otuside evaluator would presumably collate all the information and make the final yearly merit determination.
 

CitizenKain

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2000
4,480
14
76
Economics actually teaches us that the more you pay public school teachers, the more incompetent people will apply to become teachers.

That is some amazing critical thinking you have there.

Economics actually teaches us that the more you pay (Insert Job Here), the more incompetent people will apply to become (Insert Job Here).
 

Perryg114

Senior member
Jan 22, 2001
768
4
81
Only if unions are involved. All they care about is how long you been in the union. The person who has been there the longest gets the perks and joice of jobs in most unions. That person may have a room temperature IQ but they been there the longest to they are top dog.

Perry

That is some amazing critical thinking you have there.

Economics actually teaches us that the more you pay (Insert Job Here), the more incompetent people will apply to become (Insert Job Here).
 

JS80

Lifer
Oct 24, 2005
26,271
7
81
That is some amazing critical thinking you have there.

Economics actually teaches us that the more you pay (Insert Job Here), the more incompetent people will apply to become (Insert Job Here).

Governmental economics =/= market economics

Get educated first before you make statements making it sound like you know what you're talking about.
 

Perryg114

Senior member
Jan 22, 2001
768
4
81
You can't reward excellence because it will segregate smart from dumb and what if the resulting demographics does not have the proper racial mix. Well we can't actually be fair and ignore race, handicap, cultural lack of values, etc. Here is a short story by Kurt Vonnegut taking equality to extremes. Somehow, I don't think we are that far off from this world he speaks of. This is what being PC will get you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Bergeron

Perry
 

Ninjahedge

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2005
4,149
1
91
Thank the unions. Good teacher? We don't care. GREAT teacher? We don't care. Highly educated teacher? We don't care. Teacher who gets results? We don't care.

You have not seen it from behind the lines.

w/o the union, we would have more of a problem negotiating salary (btw, I have family in teaching, Science and Math AAMOF!), keeping worthy people on and the whole lot.

Government jobs like this play favorites. In the school where my XX taught, they actually hired a guy in with no teaching experience to do a science class because he had "real world experience in the field. He performed miserably.

BUT, he was a friend of the Department Chairman. If he WANTED to stay, he would have (we have had teachers that, in chemestry, would fall asleep in class and the kids would go wandering the halls and lighting things on fire). But he was one of the Old Boys with favorites. The ones that were NOT the admins favorites, the ones that actually won state awards, would have gotten the political axe.

So please spare us from the Usual "unions are at fault" BS. Until they find a way to protect talent, tenure is all they have....




OT: Gym teachers should be paid less, but still respected. they have to deal with a bunch of adolescents running around and try to keep them well behaved. Good luck. They have a tough job, but not as tough as the Math/Science and some other advanced areas,

We do need a draw, but we also have to watch out for "merit pay". You get stuck with a class of malcontents, good luck getting them to sit STILL for 42 minutes, nevermind teach them anything. OTOH, get a group of AP students with parents willing to pay for tutors on the side... well, you have award material there.....
 

JS80

Lifer
Oct 24, 2005
26,271
7
81
You can't reward excellence because it will segregate smart from dumb and what if the resulting demographics does not have the proper racial mix. Well we can't actually be fair and ignore race, handicap, cultural lack of values, etc. Here is a short story by Kurt Vonnegut taking equality to extremes. Somehow, I don't think we are that far off from this world he speaks of. This is what being PC will get you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Bergeron

Perry

Even if you could kill the union and somehow implement a merit policy, it would eventually just turn into a political shit show and/or gaming of the system implemented to "measure" merit.
 

Fenixgoon

Lifer
Jun 30, 2003
32,049
10,822
136
Even if you could kill the union and somehow implement a merit policy, it would eventually just turn into a political shit show and/or gaming of the system implemented to "measure" merit.

thats why i hate current test standards and metrics. they dont (cant) measure the quality of a teacher.

a friend of mine teaches and has to pass a certain percentage of her class. that makes no damn sense. if the students are failing, they should not pass. but thanks to whatever metrics are in place (NCLB, etc.) she has to pass failing students. WTF.
 

Demo24

Diamond Member
Aug 5, 2004
8,356
9
81
thats why i hate current test standards and metrics. they dont (cant) measure the quality of a teacher.

a friend of mine teaches and has to pass a certain percentage of her class. that makes no damn sense. if the students are failing, they should not pass. but thanks to whatever metrics are in place (NCLB, etc.) she has to pass failing students. WTF.


Yup, my mother is a teacher and it is extremely frowned upon to fail any student. She doesn't even teach one of the core subjects (teaches drafting).

In my system coaches can often make as much as administrators, all while teaching some of the easiest classes offered. If you think teaching 'health' is a good use for them, damn you have a lot of misconceptions considering they usually just hand you a book, talk about what the book says, and hand out a test made by the people who wrote the book. One did nothing buy coach baseball and 'teach' drivers ed (which he shared with another coach, so hardly a full schedule). Only a few coaches actually taught a class of any significance or difficulty, and the irony is they usually coached less 'important' sports like soccer, or track. Football had like 10 coaches or something ridiculous.

Sure sports are important, but no reason to be given such priority over normal academics. And yes there were academic requirements, although I have seen at times coaches/administrators put pressure on teachers to make sure certain students made that requirement.
 

CitizenKain

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2000
4,480
14
76
Governmental economics =/= market economics

Get educated first before you make statements making it sound like you know what you're talking about.

No no, I want to here how paying people less money will get more talented people working in a field.
Not that you are smart enough to do so.