Christie: Science and math teachers should be paid more than gym teachers. Agree?

[AyashiKaibutsu]

I think teacher pay needs to be based on merit and value. It's past time that the teacher's unions acquiese to this.

This to some degree is fine, but paying by merit quickly turns into paying by who can game the system best. How do you purpose we evaluate merit? Grades? Standardized tests? Who gets along with the administration best?

I see way to many people where I work only do what makes them look good to the detriment of their actual job to be all gungho about changing pay to merit based systems. There's a lot of much greater problems that need to be addressed with the education system.

 

[the DRIZZLE]

very very true, but that's why i made my post. clumping unions into one giant group of "unions" isn't quite fair because many are in vastly different positions inside their industries. i completely agree that the teachers union isn't doing our educational system any favors. i don't even see why public unions exist since the fact government(at least ours) itself is the agreement of union between peoples under certain guidelines.

Agreed. I still haven't found a compelling reason for public sector unions for white collar workers. I think there are some valid arguments why blue collar worker government workers should have unions.

 

[mattpegher]

I don't totally agree with that. Gym teachers also quite often teach health class as well. Considering how obesity is destroying the country and leading cause of health issues, I would say a good gym teacher is just as valuable as a good math teacher. I can live without being a great math student, but I can't live without good health. Good health precedes everything, can't do anything without it. And sadly the only place most kids will ever learn about good health is in school.

First the science teacher should be teaching health, not the PE teacher. So many over-simplifications and outright fallacies are taught by the PE teachers regarding health that it should just be taken away from them.

 

[AyashiKaibutsu]

Agreed. I still haven't found a compelling reason for public sector unions for white collar workers. I think there are some valid arguments why blue collar worker government workers should have unions.

Teachers are hired by the administrators of schools. They need to have some footing to negotiate fair wages and what not. They get paid like shit even with unions and have a lot of shit dumped on them. My ex-wife is a teacher and after not joining the union at the first school she taught at the first thing she did at the second was join one. It immediately proved useful as the school started trying to dick around with her pay checks. If she didn't have a union to help her she'd probably have had to hire a lawyer (not feasible for her).

 

[classy]

Again you are missing the point. It doesn't matter how important PE or health education is. A science teacher is worth more because they have better alternatives to teaching than a PE teacher.

Better alternatives to what?

Living healthy is all about good habits. A health teacher isn't going to change that one bit. That is completely up to the parents. Do you really think your average middle school kid doesn't know eating fruits and vegetables is a whole lot healthier than junk food?

Huh, that is the same for any subject under the sun. If parents don't set the proper enviroment at home, the kid will fail regardless of the subject.



I guest coming from my background, playing sports all of my life, I was an all star high school football player and sectional 200m track champ. I believe in physcial fitness, something that is sorely lacking in todays schools. We have more fat and totally unfit kids now more than ever. And I hate to say it, but looking at Christie who is a complete fat slob, of course he would down play any excercise.

And most teachers regardless of subject teach based on a curriculum established by a board or book nowadays. While I can see the point where one may involved better skills, that is inherently individualized.

My gym teacher taught me how to drive, sex education, drug and alcohol education, and how to build my body. Thats was 20 some years ago, but I can't say today a math teacher is worth more.

Can you?

From the CDC
http://www.cdc.gov/healthyyouth/obesity/facts.htm

Childhood obesity has more than tripled in the past 30 years.

Children and adolescents who are obese are at greater risk for bone and joint problems, sleep apnea, and social and psychological problems such as stigmatization and poor self-esteem.

Overweight and obesity are associated with increased risk for many types of cancer, including cancer of the breast, colon, endometrium, esophagus, kidney, pancreas, gall bladder, thyroid, ovary, cervix, and prostate, as well as multiple myeloma and Hodgkin’s lymphoma.

Schools play a particularly critical role by establishing a safe and supportive environment with policies and practices that support healthy behaviors. Schools also provide opportunities for students to learn about and practice healthy eating and physical activity behaviors.

 

[the DRIZZLE]

Better alternatives to what?



Huh, that is the same for any subject under the sun. If parents don't set the proper enviroment at home, the kid will fail regardless of the subject.



I guest coming from my background, playing sports all of my life, I was an all star high school football player and sectional 200m track champ. I believe in physcial fitness, something that is sorely lacking in todays schools. We have more fat and totally unfit kids now more than ever. And I hate to say it, but looking at Christie who is a complete fat slob, of course he would down play any excercise.

And most teachers regardless of subject teach based on a curriculum established by a board or book nowadays. While I can see the point where one may involved better skills, that is inherently individualized.

My gym teacher taught me how to drive, sex education, drug and alcohol education, and how to build my body. Thats was 20 some years ago, but I can't say today a math teacher is worth more.

Can you?

From the CDC
http://www.cdc.gov/healthyyouth/obesity/facts.htm

You don't think a chemistry major has better employment prospects coming out of school than a physical education major?

edit: Those thing you mention are basic life skills. As important as they are there is no shortage of people who could teach those things.

 

[JEDIYoda]

where would Stephen Hawking be without his Presidential Fitness Medal?

Hawking is hugely overrated! If he was able to get around like the rest of us and was bound to his apparatus he would not be anything special...truth hurts get over it!

 

[child of wonder]

Not only should they be paid more, schools should stop funding any sporting activities. Only academic activities should receive any funding -- Speech, Debate, Math League, Knowledge Bowl, etc.

Now, schools should be allowed to have sporting activities available to students, but the costs will be paid 100% by the students and parents. They can hold fund raisers, bake sales, or whatever they like to raise the money but I do not want one single cent of my taxes going towards a football stadium or hockey rink UNLESS the school manages to properly fund science, math, music, etc. programs and still has money left over.

School is for learning, not playing sports.

 

[classy]

Not only should they be paid more, schools should stop funding any sporting activities. Only academic activities should receive any funding -- Speech, Debate, Math League, Knowledge Bowl, etc.

Now, schools should be allowed to have sporting activities available to students, but the costs will be paid 100% by the students and parents. They can hold fund raisers, bake sales, or whatever they like to raise the money but I do not want one single cent of my taxes going towards a football stadium or hockey rink UNLESS the school manages to properly fund science, math, music, etc. programs and still has money left over.

School is for learning, not playing sports.

Yeah....................................okay

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

In my HS, the football coach was my math teacher for trig and calc.

 

[AyashiKaibutsu]

Yeah....................................okay

It's a little off the wall, but there is some point to it. The highschool I went to had some 2 or 3 story tall awesome looking concrete bleachers, ultra nice fields, etc and no history or science books written past the 80s.

 

[her209]

fat guy doesn't value gym teachers, film at 11.

I came in this thread to post this.

 

[IronWing]

Not only should they be paid more, schools should stop funding any sporting activities. Only academic activities should receive any funding -- Speech, Debate, Math League, Knowledge Bowl, etc.

Now, schools should be allowed to have sporting activities available to students, but the costs will be paid 100% by the students and parents. They can hold fund raisers, bake sales, or whatever they like to raise the money but I do not want one single cent of my taxes going towards a football stadium or hockey rink UNLESS the school manages to properly fund science, math, music, etc. programs and still has money left over.

School is for learning, not playing sports.

Agreed. I voted against the last two school bond issues and school tax increases based on this issue. The bulk of the additional funding was to support sports. If the school board had asked for more money for instruction or non-sports infrastructure improvements, I would have gladly backed paying more but until they get their priorities straight, forget it.

 

[classy]

Teachers should be paid based on years of service and merit. If we start picking which teachers are more important, we run the risk of not having "good" teachers. Its a silly and quite frankly stupid notion.

 

[the DRIZZLE]

Teachers should be paid based on years of service and merit. If we start picking which teachers are more important, we run the risk of not having "good" teachers. Its a silly and quite frankly stupid notion.

You continue to miss the point. It's not about some teachers being more "important" than others. It's about accepting the reality that the market price for a decent PE teach is not the same as the market price for a science teacher. Why do think there's an over supply of some types of teachers and shortages in others?

 

[Zebo]

Not only should they be paid more, schools should stop funding any sporting activities. Only academic activities should receive any funding -- Speech, Debate, Math League, Knowledge Bowl, etc.

Now, schools should be allowed to have sporting activities available to students, but the costs will be paid 100% by the students and parents. They can hold fund raisers, bake sales, or whatever they like to raise the money but I do not want one single cent of my taxes going towards a football stadium or hockey rink UNLESS the school manages to properly fund science, math, music, etc. programs and still has money left over.

School is for learning, not playing sports.

Leaning is playing sports, dweeb. If you can make a month of wrestling practice you can make it through anything life has to offer. You also learn teamwork and other important social skills. Athletics is at least as important as book learning IMO.

All the high end private schools, the types parents spend 40K a year on understanding the value of a good education, athletics are MANDATORY in addition to the arts/music and academics to create a well rounded student. And FYI teachers at these schools do not vary to much in salary debunking the myth science command more.

 

[Zebo]

You continue to miss the point. It's not about some teachers being more "important" than others. It's about accepting the reality that the market price for a decent PE teach is not the same as the market price for a science teacher. Why do think there's an over supply of some types of teachers and shortages in others?

Says who? Unemployed scientists are a dime a dozen these days. Actually unemployed all fields because everyone goes to college.

 

[Infohawk]

I think this is somewhere where we can listen to supply and demand. If there is a shortage of science teachers (I haven't really heard that there is), then pay them more to attract more teachers.

 

[the DRIZZLE]

Says who? Unemployed scientists are a dime a dozen these days. Actually unemployed all fields because everyone goes to college.

Scientists and Engineers are still better positioned than others. I can't speak to private high schools but I can tell you that at the university level there are substantial discrepancies in professors salaries even within related fields. For example finance professors command a 30% premium to economics professors because they are generally more sought after in the financial sector.

I agree with you that sports are important to personal development and that wrestling toughens you up but that doesn't necessarily mean they should be tax payer funded. My wrestling program in high school got almost no money from the school. The school payed the coaches and for transportation and that was it. We hosted a few tournaments that payed for everything else.

 

[child of wonder]

Leaning is playing sports, dweeb. If you can make a month of wrestling practice you can make it through anything life has to offer. You also learn teamwork and other important social skills. Athletics is at least as important as book learning IMO.

All the high end private schools, the types parents spend 40K a year on understanding the value of a good education, athletics are MANDATORY in addition to the arts/music and academics to create a well rounded student. And FYI teachers at these schools do not vary to much in salary debunking the myth science command more.

Team work and other important social skills can be learned through many different ways not involving sports.

High schools are too focused on sports when their main goal is to educate kids to prepare them for the real world. No job is going to hire someone because they know how to execute a button hook pattern or can hit a ball far.

I would agree that sports can be a healthy activity socially and physically. However, the costs for organized sports should come out of the pockets of the students and parents of students participating in the activity. Now THAT would be a valuable lesson for the kids -- to find ways to earn money to pay for their sporting activities. They'd learn about work ethic, business skills, and financial planning.

 

[Zebo]

Team work and other important social skills can be learned through many different ways not involving sports.

High schools are too focused on sports when their main goal is to educate kids to prepare them for the real world. No job is going to hire someone because they know how to execute a button hook pattern or can hit a ball far.

I would agree that sports can be a healthy activity socially and physically. However, the costs for organized sports should come out of the pockets of the students and parents of students participating in the activity. Now THAT would be a valuable lesson for the kids -- to find ways to earn money to pay for their sporting activities. They'd learn about work ethic, business skills, and financial planning.

I don't understand. If you recognize it as important then it should be funded like academics. Either you fund both or neither.

I question the whole top down education approach anyway and vouchers are the solution to this problem, among others. If you lived in a area where football is king you can send you child to the football school. If you see no value in sporting activities, send your child to the totally academic school. etc.

 

[MotF Bane]

Teachers should be paid based on years of service and merit. If we start picking which teachers are more important, we run the risk of not having "good" teachers. Its a silly and quite frankly stupid notion.

Uh, no. Seniority is a poor reason to pay one teacher more than another.

 

[cubby1223]

why do we even need gym teachers?

put the kids in an outdoor field or gymnasium; give them a ball... if a kid stops moving, prod them with a stick.

Uhhh, in your first sentence you say we need no one to teach gym, then in the second sentence you say the solution is to have someone there to teach gym

 

[davmat787]

Junior and Senior High level athletics can also be a motivator for students to perform better in the classroom. At least when I was in school, you had to have a minimum GPA and attendance record to be on a team. Would be shocked if this was any different now. In college we often hear of the academically ineligible player. Some students have to go the JuCo route to get their grades up to NCAA standards.

 

[Baptismbyfire]

I disagree with paying science and math teachers more than phys. ed teachers, regardless of what the supply & demand might be (Also, I disagree that there is really a lack of competent science/math majors to fill up the vacant positions. Even if there is such a shortage, due to low-pay, I think the remedy should be an overall increase in base pay for all teachers, regardless of subject). What you are basically doing when you go down that line is lining up all the subject in the order of importance, and funding them accordingly. But who's going to judge which subject is more important, and by what standard? It might start out with just phys. ed, but then what about tech. ed, home-economics, or even English? Who needs to read "Heart of Darkness" or Shakespeare in this day and age when you are bound to earn so much more and "contribute" more if you major in finance or engineering? Some might say, "Creativity helps to stim...." Really? Prove it. How are you going to prove it. That's right. Quantitatively. But can you really measure the worth of education quantitatively? Look back on the great teachers you had in the past, and try to quantitatively measure the impact they had on you. Can you do it? I highly doubt it.

Sounds a bit like black or white logic, doesn't it?

I do agree that there has to be a priority when it comes to funding, such as books, before expensive stadiums, but paying teachers differently according to the subject they teach I don't think is the answer. We should be promoting an atmosphere conducive to teaching, and I don't think this will happen if phys. ed teachers are treated more as 2nd class teachers than they are now. If they get paid less, does it also mean they have less of a voice too in school affairs? Some of you want more performance-based pay, and while I do agree that teachers need to be held more accountable, the problem is, there is no one effective way to measure teacher's performance. And performance-based pay can be quite a thorny issue in education because having teachers compete against each other for more pay can have disasterous effects. Those teachers could be putting their heads together to find more effective ways to teach the students, and be sharing their lesson plans, instead of refusing to share their insight and working alone just because they want more pay.

What we need to do is start demanding more from phys. ed teachers. As someone mentioned, they should be placed in charge of health classes, and if the quality of education they provide is poor, they should be forced to take additional classes to be up to date on the latest findings. And if there is more demand for science/math classes than phys. ed classes, hire one, not two phys. ed teachers, but don't decrease their pay.

Also, many teachers seem to give up teaching not because of low-pay (even though it is a part of the problem) but because they are sick and tired of uncooperative administrators and parents, who are often obstacles in their efforts to help the students.