Christie: Science and math teachers should be paid more than gym teachers. Agree?

[BlahBlahYouToo]

Meh, my public school Gym teachers were actually pretty good in elementary and middle school. We played dodgeball before it was banned, had a curriculum of sports, a rope swing, square dancing, basic obstacle courses, ran a mile around a field several times a year. In middle school we had a timed run once a month and to pass you had to do better than the last run.

It helps if it's done right, more money could attract more talent. Not entirely with Christie on this one.

why was dodgeball banned? i bet a kid got hurt (or a fat kid's feelings got hurt) and the parents raised a stink.
i loved it as a kid.

 

[the DRIZZLE]

Not all unions are like this FNE. When I was a union millwright we were quite rough on people who couldn't cut it. I've seen people fired on their first day of work more than once for not being up to snuff. Contractors that hired us, mostly ran by millwrights, didn't want to waste their money and reputation on shitty workers.

IMO there is a huge difference between unions with monopoly power and unions without monopoly power. When unions have to compete with non union labor they usually produce higher quality workers at a competitive cost. When you have unions with no competition like public school teachers it just breeds incompetence.

 

[Howard]

The mind and body work best in unison to pit one against the other is a false choice.

It took me a while to realize that this was actually two sentences.

 

[irishScott]

why was dodgeball banned? i bet a kid got hurt (or a fat kid's feelings got hurt) and the parents raised a stink.
i loved it as a kid.

Pretty much. We were all pissed when it got banned, they told us they were "afraid of us getting hurt", I actually talked back to the teacher asking how someone got hurt throwing the light half-air squishy balls we were using for it at the time. Never got an answer.

They also banned Red Rover, but that was more legit as a kid actually got sent to the hospital when it got a little rough.

 

[nageov3t]

why was dodgeball banned? i bet a kid got hurt (or a fat kid's feelings got hurt) and the parents raised a stink.
i loved it as a kid.

dodgeball made me want to go to school with a trench coat and a semi-automatic.

fortunately, my useless gym teacher was also super, super lazy... he was never able to make it past the first page of the attendance list, and since my last name starts with a V, I just cut gym almost every day.

 

[the DRIZZLE]

I don't totally agree with that. Gym teachers also quite often teach health class as well. Considering how obesity is destroying the country and leading cause of health issues, I would say a good gym teacher is just as valuable as a good math teacher. I can live without being a great math student, but I can't live without good health. Good health precedes everything, can't do anything without it. And sadly the only place most kids will ever learn about good health is in school.

Again you are missing the point. It doesn't matter how important PE or health education is. A science teacher is worth more because they have better alternatives to teaching than a PE teacher.

 

[Spikesoldier]

what so all the incompetent teachers with the longest tenure can snatch up the higher paying jobs meant to attract 'better' talent? GL

 

[PokerGuy]

This is pretty much a little snapshot of why unions are a big problem in education. They can't even admit something that should be basic logic to everyone: you have to pay more to get good teachers in certain subjects than others. Only the idiot union mentality could say that they should all be paid the same.

 

[HomerJS]

you know conservatives don't believe all that sciency stuff

 

[Zebo]

If you can do derivatives and balance chemical equations that may get you a job but if you have good health you're a millionaire. I'll take the gym class first. Too bad Chirsty didn't. He won't make 60.

 

[mchammer187]

I don't totally agree with that. Gym teachers also quite often teach health class as well. Considering how obesity is destroying the country and leading cause of health issues, I would say a good gym teacher is just as valuable as a good math teacher. I can live without being a great math student, but I can't live without good health. Good health precedes everything, can't do anything without it. And sadly the only place most kids will ever learn about good health is in school.

Living healthy is all about good habits. A health teacher isn't going to change that one bit. That is completely up to the parents. Do you really think your average middle school kid doesn't know eating fruits and vegetables is a whole lot healthier than junk food?

 

[DrPizza]

I also question why high school teachers need tenure at all. At the university level there is the academic freedom argument but high school teacher don't do research so that doesn't apply.

Actually, in the area of science, tenure can be very important. I'll give you a simple example: Let's say you find yourself teaching in a district where there are some religious people who don't believe in evolution. Shouldn't be hard to find such a district. All it would take is the right combination of people on the school board, and an excellent biology teacher could find him or herself out of a job because the facts disagree with (it could even be a minority of people) some of the people's views in the community. An excellent biology teacher would NOT omit something as important as evolution from the curriculum.

Thus, the reality is, in biology, tenure protects teachers to actually be able to teach biology, rather than religion.

 

[JS80]

What is throwing money at science and math teachers going to do? Attract better talent?

Economics actually teaches us that the more you pay public school teachers, the more incompetent people will apply to become teachers. So the correct answer is, teachers should not be paid more in absolute terms - in fact they should all get pay cuts.

 

[AppaTheBison]

As a country we're falling behind NOT because of the school system, but the student quality and parental influence on importance of education. Being in the American school system from pre-school to medical school, I've noticed quite a few things.

I remember in elementary school, the learning pace was very slow because the teachers had to keep diverting attention to the black and latino (there were many, I grew up in a poor neighborhood) students who were really slow and couldn't adequately answer the teacher's questions. I remember this distinctly because I would win all the prizes for answering questions.

By the end of 3rd grade, I was able to complete all the math questions being taught to me in 7th grade. This was because my parents provided me with a lot of study material at home. Now my parents are not the crazy "study or die" kind, and they were poor so could not afford to send me to private school. They just encouraged me to learn, and they even bought me a Super Nintendo when I didn't want one.

This same slow pace of learning kept happening until I finally arrived at high school and could fill my schedule with AP courses. Taking 5 AP courses a year, FINALLY I felt like I was learning at a proper pace. It should have happened long ago. Now guess what the difference was? There was now not a single black student, and only a handful of latino students in the AP classes.

Fast forward to Medical school, there are only a few blacks and latinos in my class. When we compared our MCAT test scores, they scored WELL BELOW the white and asian students. This country is going to keep falling in science/math as the black and latino population grows. What scares me is that I can't even think of a solution to the problem, their IQ is inherently lower.

 

[Howard]

Economics actually teaches us that the more you pay public school teachers, the more incompetent people will apply to become teachers. So the correct answer is, teachers should not be paid more in absolute terms - in fact they should all get pay cuts.

So those who desire to teach and have less regard to financial compensation are the best teachers, whereas those who put financial compensation first would not be the best teachers?

 

[mchammer187]

As a country we're falling behind NOT because of the school system, but the student quality and parental influence on importance of education. Being in the American school system from pre-school to medical school, I've noticed quite a few things.

I remember in elementary school, the learning pace was very slow because the teachers had to keep diverting attention to the black and latino (there were many, I grew up in a poor neighborhood) students who were really slow and couldn't adequately answer the teacher's questions. I remember this distinctly because I would win all the prizes for answering questions.

By the end of 3rd grade, I was able to complete all the math questions being taught to me in 7th grade. This was because my parents provided me with a lot of study material at home. Now my parents are not the crazy "study or die" kind, and they were poor so could not afford to send me to private school. They just encouraged me to learn, and they even bought me a Super Nintendo when I didn't want one.

This same slow pace of learning kept happening until I finally arrived at high school and could fill my schedule with AP courses. Taking 5 AP courses a year, FINALLY I felt like I was learning at a proper pace. It should have happened long ago. Now guess what the difference was? There was now not a single black student, and only a handful of latino students in the AP classes.

Fast forward to Medical school, there are only a few blacks and latinos in my class. When we compared our MCAT test scores, they scored WELL BELOW the white and asian students. This country is going to keep falling in science/math as the black and latino population grows. What scares me is that I can't even think of a solution to the problem, their IQ is inherently lower.

That statement is pretty laughable. If you really believe that than you really shouldn't be in medical school if you truly believe what you are saying.

I'm not saying that genetics plays no factor in intelligence it most certainly can determine our potential when dealing with the extremes of intelligence (IE 160+ IQ) but it certainly is not the reason why they don't perform as well in school which anyone of average intelligence can certainly excel at.

 

[Ausm]

Not all unions are like this FNE. When I was a union millwright we were quite rough on people who couldn't cut it. I've seen people fired on their first day of work more than once for not being up to snuff. Contractors that hired us, mostly ran by millwrights, didn't want to waste their money and reputation on shitty workers.

You got that right FNE doesn't know shit about Unions.

 

[nageov3t]

As a country we're falling behind NOT because of the school system, but the student quality and parental influence on importance of education. Being in the American school system from pre-school to medical school, I've noticed quite a few things.

I remember in elementary school, the learning pace was very slow because the teachers had to keep diverting attention to the black and latino (there were many, I grew up in a poor neighborhood) students who were really slow and couldn't adequately answer the teacher's questions. I remember this distinctly because I would win all the prizes for answering questions.

By the end of 3rd grade, I was able to complete all the math questions being taught to me in 7th grade. This was because my parents provided me with a lot of study material at home. Now my parents are not the crazy "study or die" kind, and they were poor so could not afford to send me to private school. They just encouraged me to learn, and they even bought me a Super Nintendo when I didn't want one.

This same slow pace of learning kept happening until I finally arrived at high school and could fill my schedule with AP courses. Taking 5 AP courses a year, FINALLY I felt like I was learning at a proper pace. It should have happened long ago. Now guess what the difference was? There was now not a single black student, and only a handful of latino students in the AP classes.

Fast forward to Medical school, there are only a few blacks and latinos in my class. When we compared our MCAT test scores, they scored WELL BELOW the white and asian students. This country is going to keep falling in science/math as the black and latino population grows. What scares me is that I can't even think of a solution to the problem, their IQ is inherently lower.

I see you've recently returned from a trip to

I hope your purchases serve you well.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Not all unions are like this FNE. When I was a union millwright we were quite rough on people who couldn't cut it. I've seen people fired on their first day of work more than once for not being up to snuff. Contractors that hired us, mostly ran by millwrights, didn't want to waste their money and reputation on shitty workers.

This is normally the case for contracted union tradesmen however, I've seen union tradesmen that work in the oil, gas, chemical, and paper industries that drag their feet so they can work overtime or purposely forget something so they can get an after hours or weekend call out.

 

[1prophet]

where would Stephen Hawking be without his Presidential Fitness Medal?

Stephen Hawking didn't have a choice in the matter regarding his body and did the best with what he had left, his mind.

 

[Corporate Thug]

Science/Math are more important that PE. Mastery of the subjects is far more difficult than teaching someone how to do a proper pullup or pushup.

 

[the DRIZZLE]

Actually, in the area of science, tenure can be very important. I'll give you a simple example: Let's say you find yourself teaching in a district where there are some religious people who don't believe in evolution. Shouldn't be hard to find such a district. All it would take is the right combination of people on the school board, and an excellent biology teacher could find him or herself out of a job because the facts disagree with (it could even be a minority of people) some of the people's views in the community. An excellent biology teacher would NOT omit something as important as evolution from the curriculum.

Thus, the reality is, in biology, tenure protects teachers to actually be able to teach biology, rather than religion.

That's a legitimate concern but that kind of interference is limited to a few subjects like evolution and maybe the reading of certain literary works. There are other means to deal with that without giving everyone tenure. For example you could protect them from being fired for teaching anything that is in the state approved curriculum. It's not a binary issue. You could give teachers more protection than the typical employee in an at will state without giving them the insane level of protection that they have now.

 

[mattpegher]

Yep. Talent goes where the money is, that's basic.



Absolutely.

This is a concept that we in america and arguably in the world just dont get. If you want good teachers, pay them enough to recruit the talent. Same goes for Engineers, Scientist and all intellectual persuits. We need to take back some of the diversion of money from the financial sector and the business types who are getting fat while the country loses its greatest assets.

 

[bfdd]

IMO there is a huge difference between unions with monopoly power and unions without monopoly power. When unions have to compete with non union labor they usually produce higher quality workers at a competitive cost. When you have unions with no competition like public school teachers it just breeds incompetence.

very very true, but that's why i made my post. clumping unions into one giant group of "unions" isn't quite fair because many are in vastly different positions inside their industries. i completely agree that the teachers union isn't doing our educational system any favors. i don't even see why public unions exist since the fact government(at least ours) itself is the agreement of union between peoples under certain guidelines.

 

[JS80]

So those who desire to teach and have less regard to financial compensation are the best teachers, whereas those who put financial compensation first would not be the best teachers?

Not necessarily. The thesis is that overall, public school teaching positions generally attracts an incompetent pool of talent (implying that the competent ones go into the private sector), so increasing the compensation level for teachers will cause more incompetent people to try even harder to overcome the hurdles to becoming one. Of course you get the outliers like DrPizza and other various good teachers you may have personally experienced, but overall due to the benefits and general lack of skill that is required to become a teacher, as such is the talent pool that seek it. Similar to moral hazard or some auxilliary to it.

Looking back the great teachers I had were ones that were trust fund babies and had successful spouses.