Christians Attack College - Push for new Law in Ohio called Academic 'Bill of Rights' 2-12-05

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SuperTool

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
14,000
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Originally posted by: digitalsm
Originally posted by: SuperTool
Originally posted by: digitalsm
Originally posted by: SuperTool
So if a professor is a KKK member, the university shouldn't be able to deny him promotion or tenure based on his political beliefs?
And we are going to have rightwing hacks check professor's curriculums to make sure they include "other viewpoints?"

Again I point toward the Vice President of the ACLU on this matter.

But Ill comment none the less. Your comment about the KKK, is stupid at best. And it really wouldnt be any different from a liberal prof who thinks religious people are facists, or compares people to Nazis.

:roll:
Yes it would be very different. Thinking someone is a facist or nazi is not the same as wanting someone dead.

Hate, is hate. Its something "liberals" have failed to grasp.
All hate isn't the same. I hate olives != Hitler hates Jews.
I might add, alot of you self described liberals should look up the word liberal, because alot of you are way off track, and its no wonder the GOP so successfully turned "liberal" into a "bad" word that Kerry had to run away from.

You should be more conserned about GOP running away from conservatism, the idea, than Kerry running away from "Liberal," the word. I am a proud liberal I might add.
I am for tolerance of other's ideas, even though most rightwingers are misguided. But I am against forcing professors to teach those ideas because some politicians are affraid the students will vote against them.
 

aidanjm

Lifer
Aug 9, 2004
12,411
2
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Originally posted by: SuperTool
I am for tolerance of other's ideas

I am sorry, but in the class-room, I will not "tolerate" stupid beliefs, or ideas without merit. I will seek to rip those beliefs to shreds, actually.
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
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Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Riiiiight Cad, it's quite clear what side of the aisle Horowitz sits on. Have you checked out Frontpagemag.com lately? Don't play stupid with me.

Then don't play stupid and dismiss the law as trying to "muzzle college professors"

CsG
Clearly, this is a conservative "fix" to a conservative "issue," which is why I simply don't trust it. Furthermore, there is no need for legislation when we already have a free marketplace of ideas. If conservatives really feel they're not adequately represented on college campuses, then more of them should choose teaching as a career. Problem solved. The last thing we need is legislation that mandates how professors can or can't teach their classes or what they can or cannot say.
 

aidanjm

Lifer
Aug 9, 2004
12,411
2
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Originally posted by: digitalsm
Originally posted by: aidanjm
Originally posted by: BlinderBomber
We don't need government interfereing in education... what we DO need to do is understand why there are more liberal professors than conservative ones? How does this happen? The country, over the long haul, has seemed to be pretty balanced between liberals and conservatives, so why are there so many more liberals in academia?

THOSE are the questions we should be addressing, not trying to legislate the problem away.

It's no great mystery, it's simply the case that intelligent people are more likely to hold liberal, than conservative, opinions.

Wow I didnt realise liberals were elitests... Damn all this time, liberals point fingers calling republicans elitests, pot meet kettle.

:r;

Not sure how a simnple statement of fact can be construed as elitist.
 

digitalsm

Diamond Member
Jul 11, 2003
5,253
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Originally posted by: aidanjm
Originally posted by: digitalsm
Originally posted by: aidanjm
Originally posted by: BlinderBomber
We don't need government interfereing in education... what we DO need to do is understand why there are more liberal professors than conservative ones? How does this happen? The country, over the long haul, has seemed to be pretty balanced between liberals and conservatives, so why are there so many more liberals in academia?

THOSE are the questions we should be addressing, not trying to legislate the problem away.

It's no great mystery, it's simply the case that intelligent people are more likely to hold liberal, than conservative, opinions.

Wow I didnt realise liberals were elitests... Damn all this time, liberals point fingers calling republicans elitests, pot meet kettle.

:r;

Not sure how a simnple statement of fact can be construed as elitist.

In your warped reality. Its actually pretty even. The reason you dont see conservatives in academia, is because conservatives are usually very capitalistic, and go off into the private sector were they can make 10 times as much money, with the same education.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
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Well this is idiotic. People have gone to colleges forever without the government dictating what may be said or not. Now the "party of less government" types are arguing for more government interference, or outright blackmail.

Cry me a river, build a bridge and get over it.

Unless someone is outright attacked STFU.
 

MisterCornell

Banned
Dec 30, 2004
1,095
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I fail to see how this is in any way limiting political discourse on campus. Rather it seems that this law will enhance it, by protecting those with unpopular opinions from the wrath of teaching faculty who suppress any contrary opinions.

I welcome this law :thumbsup:
 

cquark

Golden Member
Apr 4, 2004
1,741
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Originally posted by: MisterCornell
I fail to see how this is in any way limiting political discourse on campus. Rather it seems that this law will enhance it, by protecting those with unpopular opinions from the wrath of teaching faculty who suppress any contrary opinions.

I welcome this law :thumbsup:

Professors already have to look over their shoulders at DMCA-wielding software companies and bible-thumping creationists. Do you really think subjecting any material that someone out there might consider controversial to government review will enhance free speech?
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
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Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Well this is idiotic. People have gone to colleges forever without the government dictating what may be said or not. Now the "party of less government" types are arguing for more government interference, or outright blackmail.

Cry me a river, build a bridge and get over it.

Unless someone is outright attacked STFU.

:thumbsup:

That's what I'm saying! ;)

If you are too embarassed by your political or religious beliefs to defend them in an open forum like the U.S. higher education system that is no reason for the government to get involved and censor professors in their own classrooms.

This seems to be SOP for the Bush and his Christian Taliban. They use the same tactic against doctors counseling women on their reporductive options. It's censorship plain and simple because they know their beliefs can't stand up to scrutiny. So they want to limit the free expression of beliefs to protect their indefensible dogma.



 

MisterCornell

Banned
Dec 30, 2004
1,095
0
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Professors in Science classes shouldn't be making political pronouncements about the War in Iraq. That creates a hostile environment for students who may happen to support it.

If you are too embarassed by your political or religious beliefs to defend them in an open forum like the U.S. higher education system that is no reason for the government to get involved and censor professors in their own classrooms.

None of you people have any power of my life. The Prof. controls your grade, and if you piss them off by arguing with them in class when they start bitching about Republicans/conservatives, then there's a good chance your grade may be in jeapordy. People pay so much for college. The least they deserve is an honest education without being fscked over for their political beliefs.
 

SuperTool

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
14,000
2
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Originally posted by: MisterCornell
Professors in Science classes shouldn't be making political pronouncements about the War in Iraq. That creates a hostile environment for students who may happen to support it.
No it doesn't. You are making that up.
If you are too embarassed by your political or religious beliefs to defend them in an open forum like the U.S. higher education system that is no reason for the government to get involved and censor professors in their own classrooms.

None of you people have any power of my life. The Prof. controls your grade, and if you piss them off by arguing with them in class when they start bitching about Republicans/conservatives, then there's a good chance your grade may be in jeapordy. People pay so much for college. The least they deserve is an honest education without being fscked over for their political beliefs.

Just because a professor is b!tching about Republicans, doesn't necessarily mean you will get fscked over for your political beliefs.
 

aidanjm

Lifer
Aug 9, 2004
12,411
2
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Originally posted by: MisterCornell
I fail to see how this is in any way limiting political discourse on campus. Rather it seems that this law will enhance it, by protecting those with unpopular opinions from the wrath of teaching faculty who suppress any contrary opinions.

I welcome this law :thumbsup:

This is not about protecting those with "unpopular opinions", it is about protecting those with uninformed, moronic opinions.

I.e.,

"I am a moron and cannot defend my beliefs on <evolutionary theory, intelligent design, etc.> however I DEMAND that my uninformed, moronic opinions be treated with respect and be given equal air-time in the academic arena."



 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
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Originally posted by: MisterCornell
None of you people have any power of my life. The Prof. controls your grade, and if you piss them off by arguing with them in class when they start bitching about Republicans/conservatives, then there's a good chance your grade may be in jeapordy. People pay so much for college. The least they deserve is an honest education without being fscked over for their political beliefs.
As I've said in previous posts, if a professor is dinging your grade strictly because of your ideological or political stances, then we have a different sort of problem and there should be disciplinary action against that professor. If you're simply too intimidated to openly discuss things in the classroom setting, then that's a personal problem on your part.
 

aidanjm

Lifer
Aug 9, 2004
12,411
2
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Originally posted by: MisterCornell
Professors in Science classes shouldn't be making political pronouncements about the War in Iraq. That creates a hostile environment for students who may happen to support it.

Grow up.

Originally posted by: MisterCornell
If you are too embarassed by your political or religious beliefs to defend them in an open forum like the U.S. higher education system that is no reason for the government to get involved and censor professors in their own classrooms.

None of you people have any power of my life. The Prof. controls your grade, and if you piss them off by arguing with them in class when they start bitching about Republicans/conservatives, then there's a good chance your grade may be in jeapordy. People pay so much for college. The least they deserve is an honest education without being fscked over for their political beliefs.

Success in academia in part involves demonstrating that you can play the game. That means structuring your arguments appropriately, formatting your references, citations appropriately, demonstrating familiarity with the relevant literature, demonstrating some critical thinking skills, and so on. These are the things that determine a grade, not an individual's political opinion.
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
Originally posted by: MisterCornell
Professors in Science classes shouldn't be making political pronouncements about the War in Iraq. That creates a hostile environment for students who may happen to support it.

If you are too embarassed by your political or religious beliefs to defend them in an open forum like the U.S. higher education system that is no reason for the government to get involved and censor professors in their own classrooms.

None of you people have any power of my life. The Prof. controls your grade, and if you piss them off by arguing with them in class when they start bitching about Republicans/conservatives, then there's a good chance your grade may be in jeapordy. People pay so much for college. The least they deserve is an honest education without being fscked over for their political beliefs.

There has been no evidence presented of professors conspiring against people they disagree with. This is all about students who know very well their beliefs won't survive scrutiny, so they demand an end to all discussion.

This is the antithesis of education.

 

aidanjm

Lifer
Aug 9, 2004
12,411
2
0
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Originally posted by: MisterCornell
None of you people have any power of my life. The Prof. controls your grade, and if you piss them off by arguing with them in class when they start bitching about Republicans/conservatives, then there's a good chance your grade may be in jeapordy. People pay so much for college. The least they deserve is an honest education without being fscked over for their political beliefs.
As I've said in previous posts, if a professor is dinging your grade strictly because of your ideological or political stances, then we have a different sort of problem and there should be disciplinary action against that professor. If you're simply too intimidated to openly discuss things in the classroom setting, then that's a personal problem on your part.

Papers are almost always marked twice anyway, at the undergraduate level, by a teacher's assistant and the lecturer, for example. Then they compare grades and identify discrepancies. Very high and very low scoring papers are also usually examined on more than one occasion. If you have a problem with your assessment, you can always ask for it to be re-marked, or ask the lecturer to explain why you received the markt hat you did.

 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
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Originally posted by: aidanjm
Papers are almost always marked twice anyway, at the undergraduate level, by a teacher's assistant and the lecturer, for example. Then they compare grades and identify discrepancies. Very high and very low scoring papers are also usually examined on more than one occasion. If you have a problem with your assessment, you can always ask for it to be re-marked, or ask the lecturer to explain why you received the markt hat you did.
Maybe where you went to school, but that's not been my experience. TAs grade the papers and hand them over to the instructor, never to be heard from again. I've never had input into what a student's final grade should be. What you described would be the ideal case, but it's not what is practiced at any of the schools I've attended.
 

SuperTool

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
14,000
2
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Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Originally posted by: aidanjm
Papers are almost always marked twice anyway, at the undergraduate level, by a teacher's assistant and the lecturer, for example. Then they compare grades and identify discrepancies. Very high and very low scoring papers are also usually examined on more than one occasion. If you have a problem with your assessment, you can always ask for it to be re-marked, or ask the lecturer to explain why you received the markt hat you did.
Maybe where you went to school, but that's not been my experience. TAs grade the papers and hand them over to the instructor, never to be heard from again. I've never had input into what a student's final grade should be. What you described would be the ideal case, but it's not what is practiced at any of the schools I've attended.

See, TA's grade the papers, not the prof, so this BS that the prof has some vandetta against students who don't agree with his politics and he is going to reduce their grades is far fetched.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
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Originally posted by: SuperTool
See, TA's grade the papers, not the prof, so this BS that the prof has some vandetta against students who don't agree with his politics and he is going to reduce their grades is far fetched.
No, because homework typically makes up 5-10% of the total grade. The prof grades papers (essay, term papers, et cetera) and exams, which make up the rest. Plus, almost every class has some sort of class participation/attendance/hand-waving portion that would allow the professor to drop you a letter grade even if he did decide to grade you fairly on everything else.
 

aidanjm

Lifer
Aug 9, 2004
12,411
2
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Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Originally posted by: aidanjm
Papers are almost always marked twice anyway, at the undergraduate level, by a teacher's assistant and the lecturer, for example. Then they compare grades and identify discrepancies. Very high and very low scoring papers are also usually examined on more than one occasion. If you have a problem with your assessment, you can always ask for it to be re-marked, or ask the lecturer to explain why you received the markt hat you did.
Maybe where you went to school, but that's not been my experience. TAs grade the papers and hand them over to the instructor, never to be heard from again. I've never had input into what a student's final grade should be. What you described would be the ideal case, but it's not what is practiced at any of the schools I've attended.

I guess you're going to the wrong schools then. I don't think it is appropriate for a TA to have input re: a student's final grade (other than through the marking of assessment pieces like essays or lab reports).
 

spunkz

Golden Member
Jul 16, 2003
1,467
0
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Originally posted by: aidanjm
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Originally posted by: aidanjm
Papers are almost always marked twice anyway, at the undergraduate level, by a teacher's assistant and the lecturer, for example. Then they compare grades and identify discrepancies. Very high and very low scoring papers are also usually examined on more than one occasion. If you have a problem with your assessment, you can always ask for it to be re-marked, or ask the lecturer to explain why you received the markt hat you did.
Maybe where you went to school, but that's not been my experience. TAs grade the papers and hand them over to the instructor, never to be heard from again. I've never had input into what a student's final grade should be. What you described would be the ideal case, but it's not what is practiced at any of the schools I've attended.

I guess you're going to the wrong schools then. I don't think it is appropriate for a TA to have input re: a student's final grade (other than through the marking of assessment pieces like essays or lab reports).

i've had classes with and without TA grading and also where the TA collaborates with the prof. it all depends on how much time the professor is able to put into the class, but there most definately are cases where the professor grades by him/herself.
 

Ldir

Platinum Member
Jul 23, 2003
2,184
0
0
Originally posted by: digitalsm

Its simple, provide multiple viewpoints. AKA, provide diversity.

Diversity comes from many different classes with many different professors.
 

Ldir

Platinum Member
Jul 23, 2003
2,184
0
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Originally posted by: cquark
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
No, you obviously have missed the point if you think it's to "muzzle college professors". Try reading the link.
CsG
Here, Cad, are the very first words from your own link:

While Colorado Professor Ward Churchill declares his undying hatred for the United States to 1,000 cheering students in Boulder, in Ohio, four courageous state senators led by Larry Mumper have filed Senate Bill 24, modeled on the Academic Bill of Rights, to ensure that educational standards are restored to college campuses and diverse viewpoints flourish.
Even in Horowitz's attempt to frame the issue, he shows his bias loud and clear. It's quite clear what this legislation is designed to do.

In the final paragraph, he even lists specific professors he wants to silence.

I also thought the title "A Campaign of Lies" was more than a bit ironic, given how they're attempting to sell the bill to the public as a "bill of rights" when no provision grants new rights and many eliminate existing rights. It reminds me of the recording industry's favorite acronym: DRM (Digital Rights Management.)

When did conservatives become such cry-babies? They have all the power, but all they do is whine about how abused they are. They are becoming fascists who act entitled to never hear diverse ideas. "Woe is us. Them damn LIBERALS keep saying things I do not want to hear. They must be silenced. I support freedom of Repuglican speech only."


--------------------
Bush Apologists of America (BAA): pulling the wool over America's eyes since 1980
 

Ldir

Platinum Member
Jul 23, 2003
2,184
0
0
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Well this is idiotic. People have gone to colleges forever without the government dictating what may be said or not. Now the "party of less government" types are arguing for more government interference, or outright blackmail.

Cry me a river, build a bridge and get over it.

Unless someone is outright attacked STFU.

:thumbsup:

That's what I'm saying! ;)

If you are too embarassed by your political or religious beliefs to defend them in an open forum like the U.S. higher education system that is no reason for the government to get involved and censor professors in their own classrooms.

This seems to be SOP for the Bush and his Christian Taliban. They use the same tactic against doctors counseling women on their reporductive options. It's censorship plain and simple because they know their beliefs can't stand up to scrutiny. So they want to limit the free expression of beliefs to protect their indefensible dogma.

:thumbsup:

Diversity is the last thing they want. They want everyone indoctrinated in their black and white Father Knows Best ideology.