Chris Christie to sign New Jersey ban on gay conversion therapy

[LightPattern]

Can you be gay? Please choose to do so, now. There is nothing stopping you from choosing to be gay other than the fact you don't want to, right? Right? No, to you, it is natural, even if influenced by other forces in your past.

Well, you can choose to have gay experiences which you will then be influenced by. ♫ "I kissed a girl, and I liked it." ♫
I believe there are multiple factors, biological likely being the strongest of them. That doesn't mean choice isn't a factor whatsoever. (Please read that as intended, I'm not saying someone can "wish away the gay.")

Gay person wanting to be straight. Wooooooooow. To whoever originally posted this gem that Cerpin quoted, do you often think about wanting to be gay?

Honestly there was a point in Jr. High where I was disappointed in myself that I wasn't bi-sexual. I was all about being as open minded as humanly possible and was frustrated when I hit a barrier in one capacity.
I told this to my friends and they laughed at me at the time.. but I kept pressing the logic: your choice of mates would be doubled, more kinds of sex to enjoy, also just the open mental aspects of true emotional acceptance - as you pointed out, it's not really possible to fully understand the gay (or bi) perspective if you're not part of it.

That's not the same as wanting to be only attracted to the same sex I know. There aren't the same advantages to that, though having a different point of view from the majority can be rewarding in its own way.

Gay people can experience the same shame and doubt as the rest of us. You honestly think there aren't gay people that wish to be straight?

A couple results of a quick Google search:
http://oasisjournals.com/2005/11/i-dont-want-to-be-gay-why-cant-i-be-straight

http://forums.govteen.com/teen-2-teen-advice/326537-im-gay-but-i-want-straight.html

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081202184649AAkdLmF

Unexpected result of same search..
Some Gays Can Go Straight, Study Says
Looks highly relevant to the discussion, though off my topic here.​

Back on topic- I don't know of anyone who's gone through some kind of "conversion therapy" and had the hoped for result.
I've done biofeedback for other reasons, and it was completely voluntary.

 

[Retro Rob]

Ever been to prison?

Exactly.

 

[Incorruptible]

Incorruptible is always there to make sure we lower our standards to meet the standards of other countries. You are a true patriot.

Yeah, Keep spreading lies about me. I respect private property rights.

 

[nehalem256]

Bottled water containing arsenic is not allowed either.

You right. The correct analogy would be "fat acceptance" groups arguing for the ban of diet books because to quote the OP it "is damaging to young people because it tells them that it's not acceptable to be whoever they are".

Arsenic is a physical poison. Gay conversion therapy is not.

 

[zsdersw]

Exactly.

Homosexual sex that occurs among men or women in prison because they cannot have heterosexual sex does not change the gender that is the root of their sexual attraction.

 

[zsdersw]

Arsenic is a physical poison. Gay conversion therapy is not.

Gay conversion therapy is a product that, much more often than not, causes harm (physical harm, too) to those who buy and use it... just like arsenic in the hands of the average person.

 

[Texashiker]

It is no more special than a ban on, say, arsenic in drinking water.

Clean drinking water benefits all of society.

Banning gay conversion therapy targets a small segment of society.

 

[justoh]

Gay conversion therapy is a product that, much more often than not, causes harm (physical harm, too) to those who buy and use it... just like arsenic in the hands of the average person.

What harm could gay conversion therapy possibly cause? Certainly no more harm than whatever nonsense one would have to believe in order to be susceptible to buying the product. And if it's about children being sent there unwillingly, then those classes would be the least of their problems, even if some harm could be identified. banning these classes won't make their parents or society treat them any better.

 

[Retro Rob]

Homosexual sex that occurs among men or women in prison because they cannot have heterosexual sex does not change the gender that is the root of their sexual attraction.

I agree, but sexual conduct is also an indicator.

For instance, how can we call a man "straight", irregardless of his attraction, if he sleeps with other men?

We're just being woefully dishonest and ignorant if we do.

 

[OBLAMA2009]

What harm could gay conversion therapy possibly cause? Certainly no more harm than whatever nonsense one would have to believe in order to be susceptible to buying the product. And if it's about children being sent there unwillingly, then those classes would be the least of their problems, even if some harm could be identified. banning these classes won't make their parents or society treat them any better.

yeah i dont get this. why prevent treatment if someone wants it? ex-gays like gavin rosdale, lindsey lohan, anne heche, amber heard and julie cypher wouldnt be living the lives they live today without it

 

[nehalem256]

Homosexual sex that occurs among men or women in prison because they cannot have heterosexual sex does not change the gender that is the root of their sexual attraction.

Sounds to me like someone is trying to grasp at straws to define gay as some kind of special box that you cannot move into or out of.

Who appointed you as the one true arbiter of what constitutes a gay person?

Gay conversion therapy is a product that, much more often than not, causes harm (physical harm, too) to those who buy and use it... just like arsenic in the hands of the average person.

Wow. You honestly don't see any difference at all between putting poison in drinking water and trying to change your sexual orientation...

 

[nehalem256]

Lets put it this way zsdersw.

If you were stuck in prison with only women how long would it take you to start having vaginal intercourse with them?

 

[zinfamous]

Clean drinking water benefits all of society.

Banning gay conversion therapy targets a small segment of society.

Just like voter ID laws--targeting less than a single percentage point of an essentially non-perceivable problem...yet people think it's so important to our nation's freedom. (and yet, that has nothing to do with intruding on an individual's identity)

of course, this is a horseshit line of arguing because you will find endless hypocrisies trying to defend or reject something based on percentage of effect.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

You are prohibiting them from seeking professional help.

I am? Show me where I have done this, and I may cease to believe you live in your own universe.

It would be the same as banning gyms and food counseling for an obese person. Well I guess they might be able to get over the "problem" by themselves you are effectively telling them to stay the way they are.

This is, of course, an outright lie. Only in your divergent universe could banning a gym be tantamount to a prohibition to lose weight.

That's also with the notable distinction of gym's not being strictly harmful to the people that attend it.

The same way that an obese person might want to become thinner.

What a silly idea. You don't become gay because you listened to too much ABBA and Diana Ross like you become obese from too much food. Gay-ness is not an attribute of a person's corporeal image. Do you even think before you type?

People have many urges and desires and it is not uncommon for them to want to change them.

Are you particularly familiar with homosexual urges?

So where does the article say that people in NJ must "stay gay"? Or were you just lying out of your ass?

 

[zsdersw]

What harm could gay conversion therapy possibly cause? Certainly no more harm than whatever nonsense one would have to believe in order to be susceptible to buying the product. And if it's about children being sent there unwillingly, then those classes would be the least of their problems, even if some harm could be identified. banning these classes won't make their parents or society treat them any better.

As one example, it appears to have resulted in the formation of a cult.. and one woman losing her life: http://www.examiner.com/article/pol...rayer-group-tyler-deaton-plotted-to-kill-wife

Other than that gay conversion therapy leads, more often than not, to clinical depression, suicide attempts, and the need for lots more therapy and prescriptions down the road.

Gay conversion therapy is not the only harmful product that we regulate or ban. Chantix caused depression and suicidal tendencies in many people... and the manufacturer was forced to change how they market it to include such things in the "possible side effects may include..." section of their ads.

If gay conversion therapy businesses would include in their ads and promotional materials something like: "probable side effects may include depression, thoughts of suicide, and further therapy later in life" I'd say go for it.. offer whatever "therapy" you want.

 

[zsdersw]

For instance, how can we call a man "straight", irregardless of his attraction, if he sleeps with other men?

Obviously you're unaware of this thing called "pornography". Most gay porn stars are straight, and have female "fluffers". They have homosexual sex because they're paid (an awful lot) to do it, not because they want to do it anyway.

 

[thraashman]

Well, you can choose to have gay experiences which you will then be influenced by. ♫ "I kissed a girl, and I liked it." ♫
I believe there are multiple factors, biological likely being the strongest of them. That doesn't mean choice isn't a factor whatsoever. (Please read that as intended, I'm not saying someone can "wish away the gay.")


Honestly there was a point in Jr. High where I was disappointed in myself that I wasn't bi-sexual. I was all about being as open minded as humanly possible and was frustrated when I hit a barrier in one capacity.
I told this to my friends and they laughed at me at the time.. but I kept pressing the logic: your choice of mates would be doubled, more kinds of sex to enjoy, also just the open mental aspects of true emotional acceptance - as you pointed out, it's not really possible to fully understand the gay (or bi) perspective if you're not part of it.

That's not the same as wanting to be only attracted to the same sex I know. There aren't the same advantages to that, though having a different point of view from the majority can be rewarding in its own way.

Gay people can experience the same shame and doubt as the rest of us. You honestly think there aren't gay people that wish to be straight?

A couple results of a quick Google search:
http://oasisjournals.com/2005/11/i-dont-want-to-be-gay-why-cant-i-be-straight

http://forums.govteen.com/teen-2-teen-advice/326537-im-gay-but-i-want-straight.html

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081202184649AAkdLmF

Unexpected result of same search..
Some Gays Can Go Straight, Study Says
Looks highly relevant to the discussion, though off my topic here.​

Back on topic- I don't know of anyone who's gone through some kind of "conversion therapy" and had the hoped for result.
I've done biofeedback for other reasons, and it was completely voluntary.

Of course some gay people wish they were straight. When you have areas filled with people like nehalem who wants to limit their rights, it must be insanely difficult to be straight. I'm sure a lot of black people in Alabama in the 40's wished they were white, but it doesn't make them being black wrong.

 

[zsdersw]

Sounds to me like someone is trying to grasp at straws to define gay as some kind of special box that you cannot move into or out of.

Who appointed you as the one true arbiter of what constitutes a gay person?

Sounds to me like you lost the argument and are trying to divert onto something else.

Wow. You honestly don't see any difference at all between putting poison in drinking water and trying to change your sexual orientation...

There are differences, but there are also important similarities.

 

[Texashiker]

of course, this is a horseshit line of arguing because you will find endless hypocrisies trying to defend or reject something based on percentage of effect.

The law should not be used to protect a single special interest group.

Voting laws affect society as a whole.

This ban on gay therapy is like saying black males do not need to present ID to vote. We want to make sure black males can vote, so we need to pass special laws to protect them.

Black women would have a different set of rules for voting than black males.

Whites would have another set of rules.

Asians yet another set of laws.

Mexicans another set of laws.

Laws should protect all of society, and not a small segment.

 

[nehalem256]

I am? Show me where I have done this, and I may cease to believe you live in your own universe.

That is the whole point of the new NJ law. Which you support right?

This is, of course, an outright lie. Only in your divergent universe could banning a gym be tantamount to a prohibition to lose weight.

That's also with the notable distinction of gym's not being strictly harmful to the people that attend it.

A gym would be considered a "professional" method of weight loss.

What a silly idea. You don't become gay because you listened to too much ABBA and Diana Ross like you become obese from too much food. Gay-ness is not an attribute of a person's corporeal image. Do you even think before you type?

Are you particularly familiar with homosexual urges?

I was illustrating traits about themselves that people want to change.

Perhaps a "fear of heights" would be a better analogy has it is more mental trait.

So where does the article say that people in NJ must "stay gay"? Or were you just lying out of your ass?

The law bans seeking professional help to become straight. Clearly the purpose is so that people will "stay gay".

 

[nehalem256]

Sounds to me like you lost the argument and are trying to divert onto something else.

If a person is repeatedly choosing to have sex with people of the same sex that would seem to make them gay (or bi-sexual).

Just like if a person repeatedly chooses to eat meat they ain't a vegetarian.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Counseling for what? To change how you were born? What is there to explore?

Except that human sexuality is a spectrum not "you are this or that". People have different desires and expectations of themselves. I believe no one should be forced. It ought to be up to the individual to do as THEY see fit. It seems that you and the people who wish to force "conversion therapy" have much in common.

 

[zsdersw]

If a person is repeatedly choosing to have sex with people of the same sex that would seem to make them gay (or bi-sexual).

They can call themselves whatever they like, but let's have some make-believe and say it mattered at all what we.. as other people.. call them. If we're going to try to be accurate we have to eliminate significant factors such as: are they having same-sex sex because they're paid to? Are they having same-sex sex because they cannot interact with and potentially have sex with opposite-gender people?

Assumptions are usually the mothers of all fuck-ups... and assuming that sexual activity is always an indicator of their sexual attraction and, thus, their sexual orientation is stupidly ignorant. Sexual activity and attraction are sometimes diametrically opposed.

Just like if a person repeatedly chooses to eat meat they ain't a vegetarian.

Is David Duchovny an FBI agent because he played one on TV? Are these actors bad guys in real life because they repeatedly take villain roles in movies/TV shows? http://showtimeshowdown.com/?p=1838

 

[nehalem256]

Actually the more I think on the incidence of homosexuality in prison they more I think that completely refutes the whole "born this way" idea.

If supposedly straight men can learn to enjoy homosexual activity in certain environments then why can't supposedly gay men learn to enjoy heterosexual activity?

Maybe what homosexual activists really fear is that someone will figure out a way to make gay people enjoy heterosexual sex?

 

[nehalem256]

They can call themselves whatever they like, but let's have some make-believe and say it mattered at all what we.. as other people.. call them. If we're going to try to be accurate we have to eliminate significant factors such as: are they having same-sex sex because they're paid to?

How much exactly are they being paid?

I mean if you offered a vegetarian $10 to eat a steak and they accepted I doubt you would think they were too committed to being a vegetarian.

Are they having same-sex sex because they cannot interact with and potentially have sex with opposite-gender people?

That would make them bi-sexual with a preference for one gender or another.

Just like I prefer Pepsi, but will drink Coke if Pepsi is unavailable.