Chris Christie and the pension debacle.

[Mai72]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lldq4fQZfgw

http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ss...stie_on_pension_reform_during_shirk_week.html

Christie says the money just isn't there for teachers, police and fire fighters to collect their extravagant pensions when they retire. The unions have stated that they had enough money for pensions, but when Whitman came to be governor in the mid-90's the Republicans have been taking money out without putting it back. Now, it's beyond repair and Christie is asking union members to sacrifice their pension checks because the money is gone. No money= no pension.

Has anyone been following this event? What can be done so people get their pensions on time? Should NJ raise property taxes?

 

[Moonbeam]

Who is Chris Christie?

 

[Mai72]

Who is Chris Christie?

A republican governor of NJ. He's usually in the headlines, because of the scandals that surround him.

You've never heard of the guy?

 

[Newell Steamer]

Silly OP - only democrats misappropriate government funds, not bloated conservative pigs.

In all seriousness, no one is going to blink, because;
1) it involves unions, and they are eeeeeevil, so they deserve this
2) it's a fat white guy, they can do no wrong
3) it's a republican, they are GREAT with money, so someone, other than Christie is a liar in all of this

 

[soulcougher73]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lldq4fQZfgw

http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ss...stie_on_pension_reform_during_shirk_week.html

Christie says the money just isn't there for teachers, police and fire fighters to collect their extravagant pensions when they retire. The unions have stated that they had enough money for pensions, but when Whitman came to be governor in the mid-90's the Republicans have been taking money out without putting it back. Now, it's beyond repair and Christie is asking union members to sacrifice their pension checks because the money is gone. No money= no pension.

Has anyone been following this event? What can be done so people get their pensions on time? Should NJ raise property taxes?

So they pulled a Reagan SS number. Nice...:\

 

[LegendKiller]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lldq4fQZfgw

http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ss...stie_on_pension_reform_during_shirk_week.html

Christie says the money just isn't there for teachers, police and fire fighters to collect their extravagant pensions when they retire. The unions have stated that they had enough money for pensions, but when Whitman came to be governor in the mid-90's the Republicans have been taking money out without putting it back. Now, it's beyond repair and Christie is asking union members to sacrifice their pension checks because the money is gone. No money= no pension.

Has anyone been following this event? What can be done so people get their pensions on time? Should NJ raise property taxes?

How have they been taking money out of the pension? I've never read about that.

Usually it is democrat governors that keep promising these people more and more and more and propping up the system with unreasonable return projections that leads to underfunding.

 

[Exterous]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lldq4fQZfgw

http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ss...stie_on_pension_reform_during_shirk_week.html

Christie says the money just isn't there for teachers, police and fire fighters to collect their extravagant pensions when they retire. The unions have stated that they had enough money for pensions, but when Whitman came to be governor in the mid-90's the Republicans have been taking money out without putting it back. Now, it's beyond repair and Christie is asking union members to sacrifice their pension checks because the money is gone. No money= no pension.

Has anyone been following this event? What can be done so people get their pensions on time? Should NJ raise property taxes?

I am not up on NJ politics but it seems pensions were underfunded by more than just the Republicans as Democratic Governors Cody Corzine and McGreevy failed to fully fund the pensions (I couldnt find who controlled the legislature during those periods though.)

Jim McGreevey, Richard Codey and Jon Corzine contributed just $3.4 billion to the pension system, and $2.17 billion of that was contributed by Corzine before the Great Recession devastated the state budget in 2009.

Given that NJ has the second highest unfunded liabilities I don't see any way out of this other than more cuts and higher taxes. Some changes were made. It looks like they increased pension contributions by about 33% over the next 7 years starting in 2012 although with the low increase combined with the long lead time I don't expect much improvement there. They increased the retirement age to 65 and eliminated COLA increases but that only brought down the unfunded pension liabilities by ~20%. I believe there are still unfunded retiree healthcare liabilities of approximately the same amount.

IMO this doesn't seem like a situation you can tax your way out of.

It would be interesting to see what the average payout is. I just looked up teachers and while NJ has the 5th highest teacher salary when I added 20% to the average (guesstimating seniority increase) that only amounts to a bit under $50,000 a year with 40 years of service. That doesn't seem excessive on its own compared to other pension payouts. Looks like they are still eligible for SS and have paid into it.

However - using a more traditional approach for those without the privilege of having a pension that would equate to $1.7 million in retirement savings needed to generate $50,000 a year in retirement payouts. Using some rough math calculations if the pensioners contributed the ~8% of their salary currently required to the pension than - at average teacher salaries - that would give them $740,000 for retirement. Paying $740k to get $1.7m is far far better what the average American has to look forward to

Ultimately both sides are going to have to give some

 

[fskimospy]

How have they been taking money out of the pension? I've never read about that.

Usually it is democrat governors that keep promising these people more and more and more and propping up the system with unreasonable return projections that leads to underfunding.

They have been doing both! They use unrealistic growth projections to decrease the required state contributions and then in this case, simply don't make even those smaller contributions.

 

[Exterous]

How have they been taking money out of the pension? I've never read about that.

Seems to be much more of kicking the can down the road by not funding the plan than 'taking money out'

 

[emperus]

I'm not sure why the retirees should sacrifice anything. It seems like a purely a contract issue. They signed their contracts and now the state is trying to renig on what was promised.

 

[Greenman]

Silly OP - only democrats misappropriate government funds, not bloated conservative pigs.

In all seriousness, no one is going to blink, because;
1) it involves unions, and they are eeeeeevil, so they deserve this
2) it's a fat white guy, they can do no wrong
3) it's a republican, they are GREAT with money, so someone, other than Christie is a liar in all of this

You're being the monkey again.
You need to understand most of the words before you reply to a comment. Even the big words cause sometimes those are the most important ones.

 

[Newell Steamer]

You're being the monkey again.
You need to understand most of the words before you reply to a comment. Even the big words cause sometimes those are the most important ones.

Nope.

You are.

 

[Jhhnn]

How have they been taking money out of the pension? I've never read about that.

Usually it is democrat governors that keep promising these people more and more and more and propping up the system with unreasonable return projections that leads to underfunding.

Dunno that they've been taking money out, but if they don't put enough in it amounts to the same thing down the road. Money is always going out, so that needs to be balanced against money coming in & earnings from investments.

There's always a reason to cut funding. When the market is up, projections say that the pension is over funded, so don't put in the promised amount. When the market is down & tippy-top earners aren't getting massive returns, cut funding & hold the line on taxes to preserve their incomes. Demand benefit cuts at the same time, of course, because the pension is now underfunded, in no small part because you didn't properly fund it when times were good. Oh, and privatize govt functions to cut the number of workers supporting the fund with their contributions, as well. Exacerbate the demographic bulge of the Boomers. Blame Libs for "over promising". Profit.

 

[cubby1223]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lldq4fQZfgw

http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ss...stie_on_pension_reform_during_shirk_week.html

Christie says the money just isn't there for teachers, police and fire fighters to collect their extravagant pensions when they retire. The unions have stated that they had enough money for pensions, but when Whitman came to be governor in the mid-90's the Republicans have been taking money out without putting it back. Now, it's beyond repair and Christie is asking union members to sacrifice their pension checks because the money is gone. No money= no pension.

Unions care about one thing and one thing only - themselves.

Of course there was enough money for pensions... if the government didn't fund another service, program or another set of workers that were not a part of the union.

Has anyone been following this event? What can be done so people get their pensions on time? Should NJ raise property taxes?

And you believe it is equally fair for people who have paid their taxes all their life to suddenly be forced to pay more so a union can bulk up it's own wallets? If you drop the titles of the groups involved, the problem and your solution are exactly the same thing. To claim the unions are entitled to that money and the property owners should just accept their losses, is an unbalanced "solution".

 

[Mai72]

Dunno that they've been taking money out, but if they don't put enough in it amounts to the same thing down the road. Money is always going out, so that needs to be balanced against money coming in & earnings from investments.

There's always a reason to cut funding. When the market is up, projections say that the pension is over funded, so don't put in the promised amount. When the market is down & tippy-top earners aren't getting massive returns, cut funding & hold the line on taxes to preserve their incomes. Demand benefit cuts at the same time, of course, because the pension is now underfunded, in no small part because you didn't properly fund it when times were good. Oh, and privatize govt functions to cut the number of workers supporting the fund with their contributions, as well. Exacerbate the demographic bulge of the Boomers. Blame Libs for "over promising". Profit.

NJ had a pension surplus in the mid 90s and along came republican governor Whitman. Look her up. When she became NJ governor she started taking money out of the pension system. She continuously stated that she was going to back the money back. She never did. Democrats Corzine and McGreevy took money out of the pension system as well. Then along came Christie and he delivered the final blow. He sucked it dry. There is nothing left. This is what has gotten union members fuming. He then had the nerve to say that it was their fault, and they must sacrifice their pension for the common good. Yet, he will get a beautiful pension with full benefits when he finally retires.

It's not fair.

 

[Attic]

How soon would the equity market have to double to fix this?

What's the growth rate written into these agreements? If the pension funds were built on 8% growth rate but have been achieving half that or less on average, that's gonna turn into a big problem over time.

They'll have to increase contributions and cut payouts. as well as fixing the model growth rate to something realistic. Christie will have to hang for it.

I don't know how you can't like Christie tbh, he's fat and he smiles a lot. I hope he's got enough political clout to get taken down on this while at same time solving it.

 

[Exterous]

I'm not sure why the retirees should sacrifice anything. It seems like a purely a contract issue. They signed their contracts and now the state is trying to renig on what was promised.

Well its a shit situation and if it gets bad enough the options can easily come down to compromise now or get nothing later. If the state doesn't have the money it likely won't matter that the contracts were signed. Detroit has so far managed to avoid massive pension cuts but it was certainly a possibility despite the contracts and I believe Illinois and NJ's issues are much worse

 

[cubby1223]

NJ had a pension surplus in the mid 90s and along came republican governor Whitman. Look her up. When she became NJ governor she started taking money out of the pension system. She continuously stated that she was going to back the money back. She never did. Democrats Corzine and McGreevy took money out of the pension system as well. Then along came Christie and he delivered the final blow. He sucked it dry. There is nothing left. This is what has gotten union members fuming. He then had the nerve to say that it was their fault, and they must sacrifice their pension for the common good. Yet, he will get a beautiful pension with full benefits when he finally retires.

It's not fair.

Wah, wah, wah, it's not fair!!!!!!!

http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ss...ion_in_2013_straining_christie_on_budget.html

The state's debt is almost $80billion. Are public sector unions supposed to some protected entity immune to unfairness, unlike the common citizens who are subjected to unfairness on a daily basis? Oh, I feel so much for the unions and their promised paydays! Common citizens have never seen government make promises and screw them over, only unions, and now unions must take from the citizens so they can feel right again.

 

[Moonbeam]

Secret ballots should be eliminated. A record of how you vote should be kept. Failure by elected parties to live up to obligations they make should be transferred to those who vote for offenders. Offenders should be made to run the gauntlet formed by those of record who voted for them, after they have been taxed to make up for any malfeasance.

 

[glenn1]

Silly OP - only democrats misappropriate government funds, not bloated conservative pigs.

In all seriousness, no one is going to blink, because;
1) it involves unions, and they are eeeeeevil, so they deserve this
2) it's a fat white guy, they can do no wrong
3) it's a republican, they are GREAT with money, so someone, other than Christie is a liar in all of this

I'm unsure why you're complaining. Cutting benefits / raising taxes is the hard thing no governor or politician ever wants to do and most just kick the can to the next guy. You should be celebrating that the other side is biting the bullet now so that Democrats aren't forced to when you get back in power and have no choice. It's not like Christie or the GOP will get much credit for it from the voters even if it's the proper long term choice.

 

[fskimospy]

I'm unsure why you're complaining. Cutting benefits / raising taxes is the hard thing no governor or politician ever wants to do and most just kick the can to the next guy. You should be celebrating that the other side is biting the bullet now so that Democrats aren't forced to when you get back in power and have no choice. It's not like Christie or the GOP will get much credit for it from the voters even if it's the proper long term choice.

He's not biting the bullet, he's skipping pension payments.

For a guy that ran on a platform of fiscal responsibility his conduct has been anything but. Foolish infrastructure cuts, reneging on deals he made, skipping pension payments, using budget gimmicks, etc, etc.

He's done everything he complained about his predecessor doing, basically.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Yep, it has to be all the Republican governor's fault. No way the Democratically controlled State Senate and General Assembly has a hand in what's in the yearly budget

 

[Anarchist420]

Public employees get paid ridiculous sums of money; maybe they should've saved the money they got paid the first time rather than demanding that the productive to bail them out.

If Christie was a true fiscal conservative, then he would say what I just said, he would have no qualms with ending the pension program, and he would not raise taxes. But Christie is not a true fiscal conservative so he is conflicted and indecisive about something he should put his foot down about.

Give me liberty of give me death!

 

[Jhhnn]

Wah, wah, wah, it's not fair!!!!!!!

http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ss...ion_in_2013_straining_christie_on_budget.html

The state's debt is almost $80billion. Are public sector unions supposed to some protected entity immune to unfairness, unlike the common citizens who are subjected to unfairness on a daily basis? Oh, I feel so much for the unions and their promised paydays! Common citizens have never seen government make promises and screw them over, only unions, and now unions must take from the citizens so they can feel right again.

Meanwhile, according to your source, Christie plans to call for tax cuts.

That couldn't possibly make the situation worse, could it?

 

[Jhhnn]

And let's not mention that NJ gets one of the lowest returns on federal tax contributions, has for many years. They've sacrificed to help Americans poorer than they are. The reward? Becoming Mississippi, with snow.