Choice for Jesus not for thee

[SMOGZINN]

We didn't invent slavery. We didn't invent the subjugation of women, we didn't invent racism, we didn't invent discrimination against homosexuals. These human flaws go back many millenia. I don't know if you are a bit shy on your knowledge of human history or human behaviour, but your stance doesn't make any sense.

I guess that really matters on what you believe. If you really believe in that old book, it says that those things were indeed invented by your sect. At the very minimum the Old Testament says that women are to be subjugated to man in Genises, as well as the New Testament.

First Timothy
I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling; likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works. Let a woman learn quietly owith all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.

 

[JD50]

I guess that really matters on what you believe. If you really believe in that old book, it says that those things were indeed invented by your sect. At the very minimum the Old Testament says that women are to be subjugated to man in Genises, as well as the New Testament.

Yea I guess if you are a true believer like he is then technically it was all invented by his god anyways, which makes that got a monumental immoral piece of shit. But looking at it from the perspective of it being an obvious myth and humanity being around for 10s or even 100s of thousands of years before even the old testament, they didn't really invent that stuff. Doesn't really matter who started it though, bringing up your "morals that have lasted for millennia" or whatever is pretty silly when those morals included all of those things.

 

[iRONic]

nm

 

[fskimospy]

Yea I guess if you are a true believer like he is then technically it was all invented by his god anyways, which makes that got a monumental immoral piece of shit. But looking at it from the perspective of it being an obvious myth and humanity being around for 10s or even 100s of thousands of years before even the old testament, they didn't really invent that stuff. Doesn't really matter who started it though, bringing up your "morals that have lasted for millennia" or whatever is pretty silly when those morals included all of those things.

Yes, the god of the Old Testament is particularly evil although when you think about it that’s not the most surprising thing. The world was a pretty evil place back then and Yahweh was a god of war. War gods are not usually known for their benevolent nature.

 

[Ajay]

That's what voting is for! We don't take your desired direction because it doesn't get the most votes. In fact, most of the Christian right's political preferences are highly unpopular. Still, the political representation right wing Christians get is usually significantly in excess of their actual numbers due to how they are geographically dispersed. Basically evangelicals tend to be in more rural areas and for reasons that make absolutely no modern sense, rural areas get extra bonus representation.

As to why so many Americans identify as Christian but evangelicals usually lose at the ballot box it's because many American Christians are squishy. They are vaguely culturally Christian but rarely go to church, etc. Then again it's not like the Christian right acts particularly in accordance with Christian doctrine either. (see Trump, Donald J.)

The last paragraph is certainly true. It is for catholics. Probably 1/3 of our parishioners attend weekly mass and go to confession. Maybe 50% if we count those who come when they feel like it.

Anyway, if christians are on the losing end of most social issues, what’s the problem? (Politically).

 

[fskimospy]

The last paragraph is certainly true. It is for catholics. Probably 1/3 of our parishioners attend weekly mass and go to confession. Maybe 50% if we count those who come when they feel like it.

Anyway, if christians are on the losing end of most social issues, what’s the problem? (Politically).

The problem is much like you said - we live in a democracy but Christian preferences are enforced despite the public not wanting them.

As per your previous statement do you agree that a democracy should live by the values of the majority?

 

[fskimospy]

The last paragraph is certainly true. It is for catholics. Probably 1/3 of our parishioners attend weekly mass and go to confession. Maybe 50% if we count those who come when they feel like it.

Anyway, if christians are on the losing end of most social issues, what’s the problem? (Politically).

The problem is they don’t lose nearly as often as democracy would dictate.

For example the public strongly backs abortion rights and backs public accommodation laws for gay people. Christians have defied democratic norms on these issues due to their undemocratic representation.

 

[Ajay]

The problem is much like you said - we live in a democracy but Christian preferences are enforced despite the public not wanting them.

As per your previous statement do you agree that a democracy should live by the values of the majority?

For better or worse, yes. That said, we have a pretty complex democracy. The main parties are coalitions - so we have that rather than needing coalition governments. Not everybody on the right or on the left believe the same things or vote with a given party for identical reasons.

The problem is they don’t lose nearly as often as democracy would dictate.

For example the public strongly backs abortion rights and backs public accommodation laws for gay people. Christians have defied democratic norms on these issues due to their undemocratic representation.

Perhaps we should exume and re-animate the founding fathers. They built a broken system but it was the best that could be done at the time. I'd be shocked if we ever wrote a new constitution (well, I'd be long dead anyway). Even getting new amendments these days looks about as likely as lambs lying with lions in peace.

 

[fskimospy]

For better or worse, yes. That said, we have a pretty complex democracy. The main parties are coalitions - so we have that rather than needing coalition governments. Not everybody on the right or on the left believe the same things or vote with a given party for identical reasons.

Sure, although I do think we would be much better off with a parliamentary system. I see no logical reason why abortion rights and wealth distribution must be tied together. For example you are Catholic, right? Seems like the Catholic Church is right wing on abirtion and left wing on economics and there’s no party for that.

Perhaps we should exume and re-animate the founding fathers. They built a broken system but it was the best that could be done at the time. I'd be shocked if we ever wrote a new constitution (well, I'd be long dead anyway). Even getting new amendments these days looks about as likely as lambs lying with lions in peace.

The last thing we need is more of the founding fathers, haha. They've been dead for two centuries - we should care about what WE think, not what long dead slaveowners thought.

That being said I don’t think we need an amendment to solve this problem. We could mitigate it in the near term by adding some states.

 

[Ajay]

I guess that really matters on what you believe. If you really believe in that old book, it says that those things were indeed invented by your sect. At the very minimum the Old Testament says that women are to be subjugated to man in Genises, as well as the New Testament.

Eh, no. It doesn't say everything was invented my my sects (of which there are several in 'my' book). Ask a rabbi about the stuff in the Old Testament, they give the best perspective on this stuff. As for Jesus, He made it pretty clear that He wasn't starting a political or military revolution. He did say 'you must abolish slavery' and what not, because it would take away from the message and work He was doing. It would also have gotten Him and His followers killed forthwith. The revolution that He was looking for was for the heart and the mind. He wanted man to give their hearts and minds to him first and that all would flow from that. He did give us many basic teachings to get us on our way, the sermon on the mount was and is a good start. I'm not going to address the matter of the relationship between men and women - if you really care to know, there are many sources that explain the meaning of these to the faithful (though there are crazies out there who interpret it be to absolute).

Anyway, if a person denies that they are a sinner (fallen short of the glory of God and injured their fellow man) and denies that loving God is their highest good and that Christ death was the only remedy for restoring their relationship with God - then they aren't going to become Christians. It doesn't seem complicated to me.


Lastly, and unrelated to this post. I don't feel persecuted. I was addressing 'crosses'. I do bear crosses that have to with somethings in current society, because they offend God and bring unnecessary harm to others. That's a matter for my own mind and spirit and no one else's.

 

[JD50]

Eh, no. It doesn't say everything was invented my my sects (of which there are several in 'my' book). Ask a rabbi about the stuff in the Old Testament, they give the best perspective on this stuff. As for Jesus, He made it pretty clear that He wasn't starting a political or military revolution. He did say 'you must abolish slavery' and what not, because it would take away from the message and work He was doing. It would also have gotten Him and His followers killed forthwith. The revolution that He was looking for was for the heart and the mind. He wanted man to give their hearts and minds to him first and that all would flow from that. He did give us many basic teachings to get us on our way, the sermon on the mount was and is a good start. I'm not going to address the matter of the relationship between men and women - if you really care to know, there are many sources that explain the meaning of these to the faithful (though there are crazies out there who interpret it be to absolute).

Jesus couldn't be bothered to address slavery because it might get him killed, oh no. I guess the all knowing all loving all powerful God should have thought of that before he endorsed it in the old testament, or maybe just not created a world with slavery (and all the other shitty things) in the first place? You guys really make this harder than it needs to be.

Anyway, if a person denies that they are a sinner (fallen short of the glory of God and injured their fellow man) and denies that loving God is their highest good and that Christ death was the only remedy for restoring their relationship with God - then they aren't going to become Christians. It doesn't seem complicated to me.

This is such nonsense and leads to people believing they are inherently bad, it's especially harmful to children. I wish Christians were as concerned about loving their fellow man as they are with loving God, at least the rest of us actually exist and are affected by your actions.

Lastly, and unrelated to this post. I don't feel persecuted. I was addressing 'crosses'. I do bear crosses that have to with somethings in current society, because they offend God and bring unnecessary harm to others. That's a matter for my own mind and spirit and no one else's.

For such a powerful being your God sure is easily offended by things he created.

 

[Ajay]

Sure, although I do think we would be much better off with a parliamentary system. I see no logical reason why abortion rights and wealth distribution must be tied together. For example you are Catholic, right? Seems like the Catholic Church is right wing on abortion and left wing on economics and there’s no party for that.

Yeah, I go back and forth over stuff like that. FPTP is the dumbest electoral system ever.

Catholics are pretty screwed of late. I'm pretty much a traditional social democrat on issues wrt to the poor, wealth distribution, unions, etc. but now a 'conservative' on prolife issues like abortions. Some catholics have just moved to the left, others have moved to the right - some have gone full MAGA (which is sad).

 

[Ajay]

This is such nonsense and leads to people believing they are inherently bad, it's especially harmful to children. I wish Christians were as concerned about loving their fellow man as they are with loving God, at least the rest of us actually exist.

I never said we are inherently bad. Children are innocent because they do not know and cannot consent to do evil as adults do. We all are inherently broken at a fundamental level - everyone by the time they've graduated high school should be able to see that. We are sinners, because we sin. Scream bloody murder at some guy because he cut you off on the way out of the shopping mall - does he really deserved that? I think not. Loving our neighbor is our second commandment after loving God, as your would point out, it's right there in scripture. Not that it's remotely easy to do 100% of the time.

For such a powerful being your God sure is easily offended by things he created.

He makes Himself vulnerable to us because we are his children. He just wants us to see us choose good over evil. Purposefully, or lazily hurting someone is the opposite of love. Anyway, you don't know Him, and don't want to know Him. So I'll leave you to it. All the best this holiday season.

 

[JD50]

I never said we are inherently bad. Children are innocent because they do not know and cannot consent to do evil as adults do. We all are inherently broken at a fundamental level - everyone by the time they've graduated high school should be able to see that. We are sinners, because we sin. Scream bloody murder at some guy because he cut you off on the way out of the shopping mall - does he really deserved that? I think not. Loving our neighbor is our second commandment after loving God, as your would point out, it's right there in scripture. Not that it's remotely easy to do 100% of the time.

You telling a child they are inherently broken and that they are a sinner is telling them that they are bad, that's awful. We inherit original sin because a woman who didn't exist listened to a talking snake and ate a piece of fruit, so we are all born sinners. Christians tell children this, children who've done nothing wrong in the world. The last straw for me was when my 4 year old (at the time) came home upset from VBS telling me that they are a sinner and they need to be forgiven for their sins, asking me what they did wrong. I had similar feelings during my first communion, trying to figure out what I was gonna tell the priest because I thought I was a good kid, always listening to my parents and never getting in trouble. It's indoctrination and borders on child abuse IMO.

He makes Himself vulnerable to us because we are his children. He just wants us to see us choose good over evil. Purposefully, or lazily hurting someone is the opposite of love.

We are not his children we are his creation, he created us how we are and then blames us for being who we are. He is supposedly all powerful so he could have created the world any way he likes. He's also all knowing so he knew exactly what we would be and what we would do before he created us.

For example, my child is transgender. If I could create my child any way I wanted (all powerful) and knew exactly how they would turn out (all knowing), I'd be a pretty big piece of shit if I got mad at them and condemned them to eternal torture if they turned out to be... transgender. That would be purposefully hurting someone and certainly not "all loving".

Anyway, you don't know Him, and don't want to know Him. So I'll leave you to it.

That is a cop out, I was raised Catholic and was a Christian for 30 years. Sitting down and reading the bible was the best thing I ever did, got me out of that shit pretty quickly. It's why I'd never endorse two thousand year old morals that include slavery, rape, genocide, infanticide, racism, sexism, and murder. If you can understand why those things are bad, even though they are explicitly endorsed and condoned by your perfect God, you should be able to see why you don't even need the bible in the first place for your morals.

All the best this holiday season.

You too. You seem like a nice person and you have overall good intentions. There are a lot of shitty people out there who would be shitty with or without religion, I'm more bothered by the good people that just have a few messed up opinions that they likely wouldn't have if it wasn't for their religion. I don't mean to come at you specifically but I have a lot of anger and resentment towards religion and the awful things it causes in this world. I think if the good people like you would stop spending so much time and energy on trying to please a fictional being the world would be in a lot better place.

 

[Captante]

You seem like a nice person and you have overall good intentions.

You mean the paving stones on the WIDE (per the bible) roadway to hell?



I've read several versions of the Christian bible cover to cover more than once.

Although it without question does contain some powerful lessons in morality when interpreted as philosophy, anyone who takes the bible literally is just plain ignorant/dumb. (sorry)


Also for all the dumb-dumbs out there who can't be bothered to fact-check.... YES Christians ARE the majority religion worldwide AND in the US. (and Catholics make up the majority in the US)

Adherents in 2020 worldwide: (per Google)

Religion	Adherents	Percentage
Christianity	2.382 billion	31.11%
Islam	1.907 billion	24.9%
Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist	1.193 billion	15.58%
Hinduism	1.161 billion	15.16%

Population of the US broken down by religion:

According to a 2012 review by the National Council of Churches, the five largest denominations are:

• The Catholic Church, 68,202,492 members
• The Southern Baptist Convention, 16,136,044 members
• The United Methodist, 7,679,850 members
• Church of Latter-day Saints (Morman), 6,157,238 members
• The Church of God in Christ, 5,499,875 members

 

[JD50]

You mean the paving stones on the WIDE (per the bible) roadway to hell?



I've read several versions of the Christian bible cover to cover more than once.

Although it without question does contain some powerful lessons in morality when interpreted as philosophy, anyone who takes the bible literally is just plain ignorant/dumb. (sorry)


Also for all the dumb-dumbs out there who can't be bothered to fact-check.... YES Christians ARE the majority religion worldwide AND in the US.

Adherents in 2020 (per Google)

Religion	Adherents	Percentage
Christianity	2.382 billion	31.11%
Islam	1.907 billion	24.9%
Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist	1.193 billion	15.58%
Hinduism	1.161 billion	15.16%

While it may make them some of the worst people on the planet, I at least have some respect for the Christians that take the bible literally. It's either the word of God and you absolutely should take it literally, or it's not the word of God and then who gives a fuck what any of it says, you shouldn't be Christian in the first place.

 

[Captante]

While it may make them some of the worst people on the planet, I at least have some respect for the Christians that take the bible literally. It's either the word of God and you absolutely should take it literally, or it's not the word of God and then who gives a fuck what any of it says, you shouldn't be Christian in the first place.

I have the same level of "respect" for people who take the bible literally as I do for primitive tribes worshipping the sun or a volcano. (ie: morons)

In fact you could easily make the case that primitive sun-worshippers deserve MORE respect because they don't know any better.



If we were truly "made in God's image" as so many folks apparently believe, then either God is inherently STUPID or people are not. Pick one.

 

[thilanliyan]

You telling a child they are inherently broken and that they are a sinner is telling them that they are bad, that's awful. We inherit original sin because a woman who didn't exist listened to a talking snake and ate a piece of fruit, so we are all born sinners. Christians tell children this, children who've done nothing wrong in the world. The last straw for me was when my 4 year old (at the time) came home upset from VBS telling me that they are a sinner and they need to be forgiven for their sins, asking me what they did wrong. I had similar feelings during my first communion, trying to figure out what I was gonna tell the priest because I thought I was a good kid, always listening to my parents and never getting in trouble. It's indoctrination and borders on child abuse IMO.



We are not his children we are his creation, he created us how we are and then blames us for being who we are. He is supposedly all powerful so he could have created the world any way he likes. He's also all knowing so he knew exactly what we would be and what we would do before he created us.

For example, my child is transgender. If I could create my child any way I wanted (all powerful) and knew exactly how they would turn out (all knowing), I'd be a pretty big piece of shit if I got mad at them and condemned them to eternal torture if they turned out to be... transgender. That would be purposefully hurting someone and certainly not "all loving".



That is a cop out, I was raised Catholic and was a Christian for 30 years. Sitting down and reading the bible was the best thing I ever did, got me out of that shit pretty quickly. It's why I'd never endorse two thousand year old morals that include slavery, rape, genocide, infanticide, racism, sexism, and murder. If you can understand why those things are bad, even though they are explicitly endorsed and condoned by your perfect God, you should be able to see why you don't even need the bible in the first place for your morals.



You too. You seem like a nice person and you have overall good intentions. There are a lot of shitty people out there who would be shitty with or without religion, I'm more bothered by the good people that just have a few messed up opinions that they likely wouldn't have if it wasn't for their religion. I don't mean to come at you specifically but I have a lot of anger and resentment towards religion and the awful things it causes in this world. I think if the good people like you would stop spending so much time and energy on trying to please a fictional being the world would be in a lot better place.

100% agree with this. I believe there is an inherent (basic) morality in humans (such as don't kill other humans) that is there at birth and also gathered through social interactions throughout their life. My parents grew up Buddhist...they weren't super religious and I certainly wasn't but I was and am way more "saintly" than a lot of other religious people I know. My parents were my "bible"...and the lessons they taught me basically boiled down to "treat others how you want to be treated", which isn't a concept invented by religion. Religion isn't necessary for morality IMO. I would argue organized religion has caused more harm to humans than it has done good.

 

[Moonbeam]

If we were truly "made in God's image" as so many folks apparently believe, then either God is inherently STUPID or people are not. Pick one.

You forgot that the first thing you did was to shit yourself and then fall in love with your capacity to do so.

 

[Ajay]

That is a cop out, I was raised Catholic and was a Christian for 30 years. Sitting down and reading the bible was the best thing I ever did, got me out of that shit pretty quickly. It's why I'd never endorse two thousand year old morals that include slavery, rape, genocide, infanticide, racism, sexism, and murder. If you can understand why those things are bad, even though they are explicitly endorsed and condoned by your perfect God, you should be able to see why you don't even need the bible in the first place for your morals.

No, it wasn't a cop out. Just a bad assumption considering I didn't know your past. That said, you are so against the christian religion for your own reasons that I will never be able to say anything that you won't hate. So my saying 'peace out' is just me not wanting to keep poking at an open sore.

As far as slavery, rape, genocide, infanticide (??), racism, sexism and murder go - I was never taught that any of those thing were 'good' or endorsed by the church. Then again, I'm a convert, what do I know. Slavery is the only bit that I know of where the church wavered for a long time - since slaves were still kept even in NT times. If you care to point out to me where all those other things are in the NT - then have at it.

 

[Meghan54]

No one said you invented it. Your morals approved and promoted it. It's literally in your bible. You're the one gloating about two thousand year old morals, not me.

Modern day Christians are STILL pushing all of that crap (excluding slavery... maybe) using your outdated morals.

While abject slavery isn’t actively promoted amongst the major religious denominations in the US as it was thru the 1800’s, the underlying tenets used to promote slavery are still used…blacks are second class humans, thieves, lazy, etc., etc.

The Southern Baptists, for instance, only removed their ecumenical and active support of slavery from their Constitution in the 1990’s. How about them morals?

 

[JD50]

No, it wasn't a cop out. Just a bad assumption considering I didn't know your past. That said, you are so against the christian religion for your own reasons that I will never be able to say anything that you won't hate. So my saying 'peace out' is just me not wanting to keep poking at an open sore.

As far as slavery, rape, genocide, infanticide (??), racism, sexism and murder go - I was never taught that any of those thing were 'good' or endorsed by the church. Then again, I'm a convert, what do I know. Slavery is the only bit that I know of where the church wavered for a long time - since slaves were still kept even in NT times. If you care to point out to me where all those other things are in the NT - then have at it.

I don't doubt you weren't taught it, there's a reason church's don't teach that stuff, but it's right there in the bible for anyone to read. NT vs OT is irrelevant since you claim your god is perfect, all knowing, all powerful, and all loving.

 

[MtnMan]

Anyway, you don't know Him, and don't want to know Him.

Neither do you, but you are clearly sold on the fairy tale.

 

[Mai72]

No, it wasn't a cop out. Just a bad assumption considering I didn't know your past. That said, you are so against the christian religion for your own reasons that I will never be able to say anything that you won't hate. So my saying 'peace out' is just me not wanting to keep poking at an open sore.

As far as slavery, rape, genocide, infanticide (??), racism, sexism and murder go - I was never taught that any of those thing were 'good' or endorsed by the church. Then again, I'm a convert, what do I know. Slavery is the only bit that I know of where the church wavered for a long time - since slaves were still kept even in NT times. If you care to point out to me where all those other things are in the NT - then have at it.

Do we have any first hand accounts of the Jesus resurrection? The problem is we don't have any. Oh, we have stories. The 500. The women at the tomb. The disciples. But, those are just stories which are only found in the bible. We don't have any 3rd party sources outside the bible, and we don't have any first hand accounts. The Mormons OTOH have done a much moire convincing job about seeing the angle Moroni. There are a few first hand accounts, and they fully explain what they saw on that day. Its all in detail. The same can't be said for the resurrection.

And, about the slave issue. Slaves were kept when the NT was produced, so that is why it was in there. But, do you know who would had known better? The Christian God. He did absolutely nothing. If you believe like most Christians that God interacts with the material world, is all powerful, and knows what will take shape in the future, and DOES NOTHING to correct the bible than it is because a) he is a monster and enjoys to watch people suffer b) refuses to lend a hand, which would make him a monster and non-loving c) isn't that powerful and can't interact influence humans d) doesn't exist. How easy would it had been for the Christian God to send down a messanger or prophet with the goal of ending Exodus21? Very easy, especially if he is an all powerful deity. He had gotten involved before correct? In the Old Testament, the Abrahamic God was intervening all the time. And yet, when slavery was at its height, and Christians were justifying slavery while using Exodus21. He does nothing.

I've lived in SE Asia for many years. Christanity is mostly non-existent there. Why would the Christian God be hidden to most of the world? That would be the problem of Devine Hiddence. A HUGE issue for Christanity. But, a bigger one is the problem with suffering. For example, over 10,000 children pass away horribly every day for starvation. That would be totally in your Gods wheel house. He copuld do something, but totally ignores the plight of these most innocent children. But why? Is it because a) he doesnt care and would rather watch them suffer. b) he can't do anything about their plight, which would make him a weak deity. Not worth worshipping. Or c) he doesnt exist and the awful things that happen on this planet are horrible, but an unfortunate part of being born in a section of the world that lacks the food and clean drinking water necessary to sustain life? Or, maybe God is just too busy finding aunt Jane's car keys, or he is just too consumed with curing uncle Bob's cancer. Never mind the trained and highly skilled medical doctors. No. It was God all along according to Christians.

Paulogia Puts it so Well. Why I'm Not a Christian.

 

[Gardener]

Observable social evolution of humans away from "magical thinking" is clear...from paganism to polytheism, from polytheism to monotheism, and monotheism to rationalism. There are individuals stuck in the past, at earlier steps. My experience, as a former Calvinist, is that most of them eventually temper their views...apartheid, homophobia, the inferiority of women, and dominionism. It just take a few more generations, until the old believers die off.

Social evolution proceeds two steps forward, one step back. Fundamentalist (evangelical) christianity is one step back.