Chinese submarine stalked USS Kittyhawk

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LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
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A carrier battle group like the one the Kitty Hawk was in is made up of The Carrier, a couple guided missle crusers, a couple of guided missle destroyers, a frigate or two some other support ships AND two LA Class Submarines.. Always they have the subs.. the other make up may change.. but the subs are always gonna be with the carrier.. Some times it is more than 2 subs..

I'd not worry about a lone Chinese subs 'stalking' the CBG... It was on the screen the moment it left port... hehehhehe

Edit: A sub like this Chinese one does have a recorded signature... the sub on electric power is very quiet... but not that quiet.. I'd venture to opine it would be hit with all sorts of active sonar.. The destroyers often 'ping' active out of boredom.. every one with in 50 miles can hear the group.. and running the ops they did.. they'd have dropped active sonar from the ASW air craft.. about 10 miles out from the CBG... they knew exactly what was where....
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
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Originally posted by: LunarRay
A carrier battle group like the one the Kitty Hawk was in is made up of The Carrier, a couple guided missle crusers, a couple of guided missle destroyers, a frigate or two some other support ships AND two LA Class Submarines.. Always they have the subs.. the other make up may change.. but the subs are always gonna be with the carrier.. Some times it is more than 2 subs..

I'd not worry about a lone Chinese subs 'stalking' the CBG... It was on the screen the moment it left port... hehehhehe

If the sub was inside the ASW screen, there is a problem.

The sub surfaced within 5 miles of the carrier - who knows how close it actually got or could of approached. If it was forced to the surface (by ASW or mechanical issues), it would have been stated. therefore it was a voluntary surfacing.

Torpedos can easily run 15K meters - that puts the carrier within easy target range.
at 40-50kts, the carrier will not be able to outrun the weapon, especially if the torpedo is not on a stern chase.

 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
45,884
32,668
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Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Originally posted by: LunarRay
A carrier battle group like the one the Kitty Hawk was in is made up of The Carrier, a couple guided missle crusers, a couple of guided missle destroyers, a frigate or two some other support ships AND two LA Class Submarines.. Always they have the subs.. the other make up may change.. but the subs are always gonna be with the carrier.. Some times it is more than 2 subs..

I'd not worry about a lone Chinese subs 'stalking' the CBG... It was on the screen the moment it left port... hehehhehe

If the sub was inside the ASW screen, there is a problem.

The sub surfaced within 5 miles of the carrier - who knows how close it actually got or could of approached. If it was forced to the surface (by ASW or mechanical issues), it would have been stated. therefore it was a voluntary surfacing.

Torpedos can easily run 15K meters - that puts the carrier within easy target range.
at 40-50kts, the carrier will not be able to outrun the weapon, especially if the torpedo is not on a stern chase.

Thats not to say there wasn't a LA class waiting to put a Mk-48 into the Chinese sub the second it did something overly hostile.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
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Originally posted by: K1052
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Originally posted by: LunarRay
A carrier battle group like the one the Kitty Hawk was in is made up of The Carrier, a couple guided missle crusers, a couple of guided missle destroyers, a frigate or two some other support ships AND two LA Class Submarines.. Always they have the subs.. the other make up may change.. but the subs are always gonna be with the carrier.. Some times it is more than 2 subs..

I'd not worry about a lone Chinese subs 'stalking' the CBG... It was on the screen the moment it left port... hehehhehe

If the sub was inside the ASW screen, there is a problem.

The sub surfaced within 5 miles of the carrier - who knows how close it actually got or could of approached. If it was forced to the surface (by ASW or mechanical issues), it would have been stated. therefore it was a voluntary surfacing.

Torpedos can easily run 15K meters - that puts the carrier within easy target range.
at 40-50kts, the carrier will not be able to outrun the weapon, especially if the torpedo is not on a stern chase.

Thats not to say there wasn't a LA class waiting to put a Mk-48 into the Chinese sub the second it did something overly hostile.

If the Chinese sub was on a one-way trip, they could have flooded their outer doors, and launched a spread on a passive sonar bearing before the 688 could nail them. Note the key word is a one-way trip.

 

Passions

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2000
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UberNeuman

Lifer
Nov 4, 1999
16,937
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Originally posted by: Passions
Originally posted by: dmw16
Originally posted by: Passions
http://www.washtimes.com/national/20061113-121539-3317r.htm

I say we should have taken it out!!!!

They have no right to be within 5 miles of our carriers. :|

Very foolish post. Why would we sink a Chinese sub and cause an international incident, mess up the economy, risk war, etc?

To show the full power of the US Navy. (Read bolded sig.)

Are you ready to sign up, because WWIII needs keyboard commandos like yourself to lead the loud clucking into battle.....

 

Gibsons

Lifer
Aug 14, 2001
12,530
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Pardon my cynicism, but I suspect the USN is looking for DDX or Virginia funding. :p ;)
 

Passions

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2000
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Originally posted by: UberNeuman
Originally posted by: Passions
Originally posted by: dmw16
Originally posted by: Passions
http://www.washtimes.com/national/20061113-121539-3317r.htm

I say we should have taken it out!!!!

They have no right to be within 5 miles of our carriers. :|

Very foolish post. Why would we sink a Chinese sub and cause an international incident, mess up the economy, risk war, etc?

To show the full power of the US Navy. (Read bolded sig.)

Are you ready to sign up, because WWIII needs keyboard commandos like yourself to lead the loud clucking into battle.....

:laugh: that was pretty good.
 

Drift3r

Guest
Jun 3, 2003
3,572
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0
Originally posted by: Passions
http://www.washtimes.com/national/20061113-121539-3317r.htm

I say we should have taken it out!!!!

They have no right to be within 5 miles of our carriers. :|

We've done the same thing and still do the same thing to ships of other foreign countries. Go read a history book for once in your life. It's no big deal really these type of cat and mouse games happen even with so called "Friendly" nations.
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
62,678
11,018
136
I knew a fellow many years ago, whose MAIN function on his submarine, was to take photos through the periscope of Soviet subs they were trailing. Obviously, on a sub, he had other functions as well, but his most important job was as photographer. They'd close to within a couple hundred yards (or less) and take pix thru the periscope with a specialized camera. Don't remember if it was infrared, or what, but far from the ordinary Minolta...

This kind of stuff goes on all the time in the submarine warefare world. It's hard to say if they were shadowed by a US sub or not, but I'd still expect there to be some serious hell to pay over allowing it to get that close...apparently undetected...
 

Gibsons

Lifer
Aug 14, 2001
12,530
35
91
Originally posted by: Thump553
Before people continue to go overboard about this, I suggest a quick read through Blind Man's Bluff: The Untold Story of American Submarine Espionage , a fascinating true book about the things US subs did during the Cold War. If we were ever caught at some of these, it would have ruffled a lot more feathers than the Kitty Hawk episode.
That book is a good read. :thumbsup:

There's a TV documentary taken straight from it also. But, as always, the book is better.
 

ZzZGuy

Golden Member
Nov 15, 2006
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China wants to become a superpower to rival the USA. The current expansion in their economy and military refelct this, and they might very well do it 50 years down the road unless their economy stalls.
 

bctbct

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2005
4,868
1
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Originally posted by: ZzZGuy
China wants to become a superpower to rival the USA. The current expansion in their economy and military refelct this, and they might very well do it 50 years down the road unless their economy stalls.


50, how about ten. We will decline as they grow.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
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Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Originally posted by: LunarRay
A carrier battle group like the one the Kitty Hawk was in is made up of The Carrier, a couple guided missle crusers, a couple of guided missle destroyers, a frigate or two some other support ships AND two LA Class Submarines.. Always they have the subs.. the other make up may change.. but the subs are always gonna be with the carrier.. Some times it is more than 2 subs..

I'd not worry about a lone Chinese subs 'stalking' the CBG... It was on the screen the moment it left port... hehehhehe

If the sub was inside the ASW screen, there is a problem.

The sub surfaced within 5 miles of the carrier - who knows how close it actually got or could of approached. If it was forced to the surface (by ASW or mechanical issues), it would have been stated. therefore it was a voluntary surfacing.

Torpedos can easily run 15K meters - that puts the carrier within easy target range.
at 40-50kts, the carrier will not be able to outrun the weapon, especially if the torpedo is not on a stern chase.

Well.. lets assume a torpedo was issued.. and lets assume the Carrier was only Four miles away.. there is little likely hood that the Carrier could not out run it... Enterprise could do over 45 knots..
But, yes it surfaced with in 5 miles.. that is exactly what they are required to do IF they are 'pinged' by another sub.. (active) sorta rules of engagement.. surface or be shot..

BUT ... that it was news... means someone on board reported it. That is what troubles me... why .. what is the reason for reporting it.. or allowing it reported.. surely no civilian was in CIC... so it was Navy personnel who gave the info.. you don't see a sub at 5 miles... even from the O11 level..


 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
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Originally posted by: K1052
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Originally posted by: LunarRay
A carrier battle group like the one the Kitty Hawk was in is made up of The Carrier, a couple guided missle crusers, a couple of guided missle destroyers, a frigate or two some other support ships AND two LA Class Submarines.. Always they have the subs.. the other make up may change.. but the subs are always gonna be with the carrier.. Some times it is more than 2 subs..

I'd not worry about a lone Chinese subs 'stalking' the CBG... It was on the screen the moment it left port... hehehhehe

If the sub was inside the ASW screen, there is a problem.

The sub surfaced within 5 miles of the carrier - who knows how close it actually got or could of approached. If it was forced to the surface (by ASW or mechanical issues), it would have been stated. therefore it was a voluntary surfacing.

Torpedos can easily run 15K meters - that puts the carrier within easy target range.
at 40-50kts, the carrier will not be able to outrun the weapon, especially if the torpedo is not on a stern chase.

Thats not to say there wasn't a LA class waiting to put a Mk-48 into the Chinese sub the second it did something overly hostile.

The instant they (the hostile) made a FC solution, opened outter doors... it would have been sunk..

 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Originally posted by: K1052
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Originally posted by: LunarRay
A carrier battle group like the one the Kitty Hawk was in is made up of The Carrier, a couple guided missle crusers, a couple of guided missle destroyers, a frigate or two some other support ships AND two LA Class Submarines.. Always they have the subs.. the other make up may change.. but the subs are always gonna be with the carrier.. Some times it is more than 2 subs..

I'd not worry about a lone Chinese subs 'stalking' the CBG... It was on the screen the moment it left port... hehehhehe

If the sub was inside the ASW screen, there is a problem.

The sub surfaced within 5 miles of the carrier - who knows how close it actually got or could of approached. If it was forced to the surface (by ASW or mechanical issues), it would have been stated. therefore it was a voluntary surfacing.

Torpedos can easily run 15K meters - that puts the carrier within easy target range.
at 40-50kts, the carrier will not be able to outrun the weapon, especially if the torpedo is not on a stern chase.

Thats not to say there wasn't a LA class waiting to put a Mk-48 into the Chinese sub the second it did something overly hostile.

If the Chinese sub was on a one-way trip, they could have flooded their outer doors, and launched a spread on a passive sonar bearing before the 688 could nail them. Note the key word is a one-way trip.

Yes... indeed!.... no doubt it would have been 'One Way'....

Passive.. at 5 miles.. it would have hit on anything.. or the torpedos would have.. and I assure you there'd have been more decoy in the water than fish.. (real ones).. :)

I think it is in Jane's that the LA class can Fly under water.. I'd be a bit or really alot more worried about a Soviet Fast Attack.. (name escapes me.. Acula, I think) cuz they can launch other weaponry... torpedos.. it would take ... guessing here.. but assuming all water tight doors closed.. as in all battle conditions.. maybe 15 or more to put a Carrier in jeopardy..
Oriskany in '66 (as I recall) was listing about as much as I'd care to list.. from a Flare explosion and the collateral events.. even more than Forrestal did.. from an amount of water flooded to avoid further detonation of weapons and fuel... it was (at that time) estimated by some Naval brain.. that that amount of water would have been about the amount of flooding from 12 closely impacted torpedos on the port side aft..

The hull thickness of a Carrier along with all the voids etc that provide a buffer is just made for torpedo attack.. I'd be more worried about a large plane impacting into ... well.. depending on what was on deck.. well... as I think about it.. the most vunerable place on a carrier is its amunition holds.. and they are very well protected.. from conventional wepons... Nuclear... another story... totaly..

 

Horus

Platinum Member
Dec 27, 2003
2,838
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This just shows the real advantage of those diesel subs when it comes to this kinda warfare. Absolutely silent.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Originally posted by: Thump553
Before people continue to go overboard about this, I suggest a quick read through Blind Man's Bluff: The Untold Story of American Submarine Espionage , a fascinating true book about the things US subs did during the Cold War. If we were ever caught at some of these, it would have ruffled a lot more feathers than the Kitty Hawk episode.


There is so much that is still top secret.. but yes.. that is quite interesting...

 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Originally posted by: BoomerD
I knew a fellow many years ago, whose MAIN function on his submarine, was to take photos through the periscope of Soviet subs they were trailing. Obviously, on a sub, he had other functions as well, but his most important job was as photographer. They'd close to within a couple hundred yards (or less) and take pix thru the periscope with a specialized camera. Don't remember if it was infrared, or what, but far from the ordinary Minolta...

This kind of stuff goes on all the time in the submarine warefare world. It's hard to say if they were shadowed by a US sub or not, but I'd still expect there to be some serious hell to pay over allowing it to get that close...apparently undetected...

There is a catalogue of every submarine still alive that contains the 'signature' of the submarine... however slight the sound it makes difference is.. there is a difference and each are identified by this signature.. Part of the job of the Fast Attack class was to do this.. The idea obviously was for the fleet to know who it was and what its capability is so the fleet can approach 'killing' it by the best means possible .. or avoiding it.. what ever..

To prove to USSR that 'X' boat was in 'X' area at 'X' time these recordings are made and clandistine photos are made.. but remember at depth there is no light for photo needing light.. and the skin of the boats is so dang near the ambient of the water that that means is not viable either.. but I don know there is some method of 'photo' taking cuz i've seen it.. giving exact location and other specifics.. including signature data.. IF I were to guess I'd say the 'camera' was able to detect mass differential of the area within its vision.. and produce a picture of that.. somehow
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
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Originally posted by: Aimster
I thought carriers were surrounded by a number of ships like destroyers and frigates?

They are... Carrier Battle Groups.. usually 6 fighting vessels and up to around 4 support vessels and the friendly subs.. somewhere.

Thinking about this for the last few hours.. I think it quite plausable that the Chinese sub may have simply been in the path of the Group... and being Diesel/Electric with a reasonably bright skipper .. decided to simply play safe and surface.. They likely could not have out lasted an Ops that they didn't know was or was not going to reveal their presence.. Even as stealthy as they could have been.. the only smart move was to surface.. and wave.. maybe keep the US guessing.. not sure but it would have been a coup for that crew...
Stalking the Group.. no way.. they are way too slow underwater for that... by more than double..
Think about the D/E underwater speed vs the surface fleet.. and the 688's.. no way no how...

 

MadRat

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
11,909
228
106
Yeah, no kidding about the slow comment. A diesel-electric isn't going to keep up with a major carrier. Physics works against it.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
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Originally posted by: MadRat
Yeah, no kidding about the slow comment. A diesel-electric isn't going to keep up with a major carrier. Physics works against it.


IIRC, they go near about 11 knots.. submerged.. the slowest of the battle group.. what 24 knots.. and the carrier... over 45 ...