Chinese submarine stalked USS Kittyhawk

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: ayabe
Many of you don't have all the facts on this issue, our Pacific Fleet Commander is in Beijing right now, this was a provacative act plain and simple. We are trying to garner trust in the Chinese by opening up some of our military methodogies to help ease the tensions between us. The Chinese are throwing this back in our face.

Also, we did not detect the sub, this was their way of telling us that they can sink one of our carriers whenever they want, so we better not think of helping Taiwan. Make no mistake about it, the Chinese want us out of Asia completely. As long as we continue to pander to them, and put up with their grossly unfair trade practices we are going to continue to lose ground until China is running the show. They are taking our money that we give them buying their ****** products and are using the money to build weapons to destroy us.

Our current policy towards China is beyond belief.

Yep, looks like it was a calculated move by China:

11-14-2006 U.S. admiral urges closer China ties after sub scare

A U.S. defense chief called for closer military ties with China and for the two powers to shed "Cold War" thinking on Tuesday as he highlighted a recent naval encounter that could have gone wrong.

The chief of U.S. forces in the Pacific, Admiral William J. Fallon, was asked to confirm a U.S. newspaper report of an uncomfortably close encounter between U.S. warships and a Chinese submarine in the Pacific last month.

Confirming the gist of the Washington Times report, Fallon said the submarine had been detected at close quarters by an aircraft carrier and its accompanying warships.

"Now it turns out that the aircraft carrier and its escorting ships were out doing some exercises.

I am told they were not engaged in anti-submarine exercises, so they were not looking for submarines.

But if they had been, and this Chinese submarine happened to come in the middle of this, then this could well have escalated into something that was very unforeseen."

 

[fskimospy]

This sort of thing happens more often then you might think. The battlegroups my ship was a part of frequently encountered subs from China and particularly India in that area. Sure it is a good reminded that southeast asia poses some risks to our overwhealming worldwide naval supremacy, but this isn't as big a deal as people seem to think.

 

[imported_Tango]

Originally posted by: OS

Originally posted by: Genx87
I thought China has been found to spend closer to 90 billion a year?

btw an interesting thing to consider. If China had a per capita gdp equal to the United States their GDP would be close to 40 trillion a year. If they spent the same % as us on defense we are talking ~1.4 Trillion a year in defense spending.

It will come in time. This time however we dont have the communist closer market system that will kill them from within. China is opening up their markets and will be very tough to defeat both economically and militarily.

China as the next economic superpower is overrated. Their one child policy is going to come back and bite them in the ass, their population will turn grey more than ours. Plus their financial system is broken as hell with lots of nonperforming loans.

China is going to be the next economic hegemon. No question about it. The indicators are so clear it's not even fun. The only question is how fast they will become it, and what will they choose to do with their economic power in the political field. This one will be Asia's century:

China's GDP at PPP is already second in the world and closing the gap very very fast

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_gdp_ppp-economy-gdp-ppp

Current Account balance...
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_c...cc_bal-economy-current-account-balance

The famous BRIC report:

http://www2.goldmansachs.com/insight/research/reports/99.pdf

Some recent index comparatives:

Shanghai Vs. Dow
http://www.marketwatch.com/tools/quotes...f2=4&lf3=0&type=2&size=1&optstyle=1013

even more impressive:
India BSE Vs. Dow
http://www.marketwatch.com/tools/quotes...f2=4&lf3=0&type=2&size=1&optstyle=1013

China is preparing to dominate the world's economy. They know they will soon be in position to do it. The US know they will soon be in position to do it. And they know the US know.

Militarily, they have no incentive in developing an offensive war machine, cause they have no interest in risking a military confrontation. They know they just have to be patient and their economy will do the job. That's why their military expenditure is so low. No pressure to waste money right now. They bought a former soviet aircraft carrier and have plans to design their own AC in the future, but why would they spend all this money now. They do not need force projection and have no plans to enter any distant, expensive war.

The do, however, have interest in developing a first-class defensive military. Submarines will be one of the cornerstones of their military force. Their Navy has estimated to be able to completely change the whole fleet by year 2025. Their new Class Type 93 nuclear submarine is considered as quiet as Los Angeles class American submarines, and they are expected to build 9 before 2010.
Again, Chinese strength is in their economic capacity. When they'll design a new weapon, they'll soon be able to mass-produce it in big numbers, like they are doing with their new tanks.

 

[TravisT]

The dem's are already killing our defense is the way i see it.

 

[ayabe]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: ayabe
Many of you don't have all the facts on this issue, our Pacific Fleet Commander is in Beijing right now, this was a provacative act plain and simple. We are trying to garner trust in the Chinese by opening up some of our military methodogies to help ease the tensions between us. The Chinese are throwing this back in our face.

Also, we did not detect the sub, this was their way of telling us that they can sink one of our carriers whenever they want, so we better not think of helping Taiwan. Make no mistake about it, the Chinese want us out of Asia completely. As long as we continue to pander to them, and put up with their grossly unfair trade practices we are going to continue to lose ground until China is running the show. They are taking our money that we give them buying their ****** products and are using the money to build weapons to destroy us.

Our current policy towards China is beyond belief.

Yep, looks like it was a calculated move by China:

11-14-2006 U.S. admiral urges closer China ties after sub scare

A U.S. defense chief called for closer military ties with China and for the two powers to shed "Cold War" thinking on Tuesday as he highlighted a recent naval encounter that could have gone wrong.

The chief of U.S. forces in the Pacific, Admiral William J. Fallon, was asked to confirm a U.S. newspaper report of an uncomfortably close encounter between U.S. warships and a Chinese submarine in the Pacific last month.

Confirming the gist of the Washington Times report, Fallon said the submarine had been detected at close quarters by an aircraft carrier and its accompanying warships.

"Now it turns out that the aircraft carrier and its escorting ships were out doing some exercises.

I am told they were not engaged in anti-submarine exercises, so they were not looking for submarines.

But if they had been, and this Chinese submarine happened to come in the middle of this, then this could well have escalated into something that was very unforeseen."

I'm shocked that you of all people would swallow this spin job.

 

[Aimster]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-324294841727623684

 

[fornax]

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper

How about having our ASW tactics reviewd to determine what went wrong and get it corrected.

It did not force itself in there against our wishes; it exposed some weakness that needs to be addressed ASAP.

Some heads are going to roll.

Good points. Someone was VERY sloppy. The Chinese submarines are not that quiet either, they are just starting to catch up with the old Russian technology (say, the Warsaw series).

 

[Passions]

Originally posted by: Aimster
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-324294841727623684

Oh god. This is so sad.

We need to beef up and spend more on our military. This is an absolute no-no.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: ayabe

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: ayabe
Many of you don't have all the facts on this issue, our Pacific Fleet Commander is in Beijing right now, this was a provacative act plain and simple. We are trying to garner trust in the Chinese by opening up some of our military methodogies to help ease the tensions between us. The Chinese are throwing this back in our face.

Also, we did not detect the sub, this was their way of telling us that they can sink one of our carriers whenever they want, so we better not think of helping Taiwan. Make no mistake about it, the Chinese want us out of Asia completely. As long as we continue to pander to them, and put up with their grossly unfair trade practices we are going to continue to lose ground until China is running the show. They are taking our money that we give them buying their ****** products and are using the money to build weapons to destroy us.

Our current policy towards China is beyond belief.

Yep, looks like it was a calculated move by China:

11-14-2006 U.S. admiral urges closer China ties after sub scare

A U.S. defense chief called for closer military ties with China and for the two powers to shed "Cold War" thinking on Tuesday as he highlighted a recent naval encounter that could have gone wrong.

The chief of U.S. forces in the Pacific, Admiral William J. Fallon, was asked to confirm a U.S. newspaper report of an uncomfortably close encounter between U.S. warships and a Chinese submarine in the Pacific last month.

Confirming the gist of the Washington Times report, Fallon said the submarine had been detected at close quarters by an aircraft carrier and its accompanying warships.

"Now it turns out that the aircraft carrier and its escorting ships were out doing some exercises.

I am told they were not engaged in anti-submarine exercises, so they were not looking for submarines.

But if they had been, and this Chinese submarine happened to come in the middle of this, then this could well have escalated into something that was very unforeseen."

I'm shocked that you of all people would swallow this spin job.

Originally posted by: Passions

Originally posted by: Aimster
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-324294841727623684

Oh god. This is so sad.

We need to beef up and spend more on our military. This is an absolute no-no.

Is this a "spin job"?

Iran could have a small Nuke on the drone and take out the Carrier.

 

[Passions]

That's a bit far fetched, but drones filming our carriers undetected reveals how vulnerable our fleet can be.

With the incoming democrats taking office, be prepared for our nation's military capabilities to degrade even more.

Playing right into the hands of terrorists.

 

[ayabe]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: ayabe

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: ayabe
Many of you don't have all the facts on this issue, our Pacific Fleet Commander is in Beijing right now, this was a provacative act plain and simple. We are trying to garner trust in the Chinese by opening up some of our military methodogies to help ease the tensions between us. The Chinese are throwing this back in our face.

Also, we did not detect the sub, this was their way of telling us that they can sink one of our carriers whenever they want, so we better not think of helping Taiwan. Make no mistake about it, the Chinese want us out of Asia completely. As long as we continue to pander to them, and put up with their grossly unfair trade practices we are going to continue to lose ground until China is running the show. They are taking our money that we give them buying their ****** products and are using the money to build weapons to destroy us.

Our current policy towards China is beyond belief.

Yep, looks like it was a calculated move by China:

11-14-2006 U.S. admiral urges closer China ties after sub scare

A U.S. defense chief called for closer military ties with China and for the two powers to shed "Cold War" thinking on Tuesday as he highlighted a recent naval encounter that could have gone wrong.

The chief of U.S. forces in the Pacific, Admiral William J. Fallon, was asked to confirm a U.S. newspaper report of an uncomfortably close encounter between U.S. warships and a Chinese submarine in the Pacific last month.

Confirming the gist of the Washington Times report, Fallon said the submarine had been detected at close quarters by an aircraft carrier and its accompanying warships.

"Now it turns out that the aircraft carrier and its escorting ships were out doing some exercises.

I am told they were not engaged in anti-submarine exercises, so they were not looking for submarines.

But if they had been, and this Chinese submarine happened to come in the middle of this, then this could well have escalated into something that was very unforeseen."

I'm shocked that you of all people would swallow this spin job.

[

Is this a "spin job"?

Iran could have a small Nuke on the drone and take out the Carrier.

What is the point you are trying to make, are you agreeing or disagreeing with me? Why in the hell wouldn't a carrier battle group have all of their defenses up regardless of what kind of exercise they are on? Do they turn their radar off when they are doing sub only drills? That's just stupid, and the statement by the Navy is trying to save themselves from embarrassment, I don't buy their line, we look stupid and that was the goal of the Chinese.

Furthermore, each carrier group has their own attack sub, guess what the primary task of these subs are? Well they are supposed to protect the group from.............enemy submarines.

They didn't detect the sub until it surfaced, then it was detected by a spotter plane despite what the Navy says.


On the Iran front, they also have many many sophisticated land->sea cruise missiles that would make short work of a carrier battle group.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Passions
That's a bit far fetched, but drones filming our carriers undetected reveals how vulnerable our fleet can be.

With the incoming democrats taking office, be prepared for our nation's military capabilities to degrade even more.

Playing right into the hands of terrorists.

Proof please

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: Passions
That's a bit far fetched, but drones filming our carriers undetected reveals how vulnerable our fleet can be.

With the incoming democrats taking office, be prepared for our nation's military capabilities to degrade even more.

Playing right into the hands of terrorists.

The sky is falling, the sky is falling, everybody run!!

I assume you must mean by cutting the defense budget? After billions of billions of dollars have been wasted in an ill conceived, poorly executed "regiem change" you are worried about the democrats screwing up our defense? That's rich.

This must be an example fo the new bi-partisianship we keep hearing about from the right.

 

[fskimospy]

Ayabe I mean no offense, but you don't know what you're talking about. Ships in the Navy run different levels of readiness based on different situations. There is no real threat of imminent attack by the Chinese navy, and so they don't have all their watchstanders on and active 24 hours a day. That would not only put a needless hardship on the crew, but it would prevent more useful work from being done on the ship. It just makes sense.

ASW involves a LOT more then just checking the sonar screen now and then. Usually to find a sub, (especially one you don't know for sure is there) involves the work of helicopters, aircraft, several ships, etc. A lot more then just the battlegroup's token sub. (that's another reason not to be searching at all times... saves us taxpayers a lot of money in fuel and sonar bouy costs).

Nothing that any military has is going to make short work of a carrier battlegroup. The only thing that our navy is the least bit worried about from Iran is what they can do in the straight of Hormuz. We have a massive advantage in range and accuracy over every weapon system the Iranians have... the only problem is that in that one area (that of course fate would have made the enterance to the persian gulf) most of our advantages are nullified. That's why Iran poses a military threat to our navy... and that's the only reason.

I'm sure you will be glad to know though that while our ships go through the straight of hormuz they maintain a state of maximum readiness... because the threat of attack IS real.

 

[ayabe]

Originally posted by: eskimospy
Ayabe I mean no offense, but you don't know what you're talking about. Ships in the Navy run different levels of readiness based on different situations. There is no real threat of imminent attack by the Chinese navy, and so they don't have all their watchstanders on and active 24 hours a day. That would not only put a needless hardship on the crew, but it would prevent more useful work from being done on the ship. It just makes sense.

ASW involves a LOT more then just checking the sonar screen now and then. Usually to find a sub, (especially one you don't know for sure is there) involves the work of helicopters, aircraft, several ships, etc. A lot more then just the battlegroup's token sub. (that's another reason not to be searching at all times... saves us taxpayers a lot of money in fuel and sonar bouy costs).

Nothing that any military has is going to make short work of a carrier battlegroup. The only thing that our navy is the least bit worried about from Iran is what they can do in the straight of Hormuz. We have a massive advantage in range and accuracy over every weapon system the Iranians have... the only problem is that in that one area (that of course fate would have made the enterance to the persian gulf) most of our advantages are nullified. That's why Iran poses a military threat to our navy... and that's the only reason.

I'm sure you will be glad to know though that while our ships go through the straight of hormuz they maintain a state of maximum readiness... because the threat of attack IS real.

Sure I realize that, however I still disagree with you. Since Chinese subs rarely venture out of the coastal areas we don't have a good reference on what their acoustic signatures are I am still unconvinced that this couldn't have happened under maximum readiness standards. But I'm not privy to what exactly was occurring on that day.

 

[dmw16]

Originally posted by: Passions
http://www.washtimes.com/national/20061113-121539-3317r.htm

I say we should have taken it out!!!!

They have no right to be within 5 miles of our carriers. :|

Very foolish post. Why would we sink a Chinese sub and cause an international incident, mess up the economy, risk war, etc?

 

[astrosfan90]

Just thought I'd check in. I have two friends in the Navy, both of whom worked for a time as part of a carrier fleet, specifically on a Frigate that was tasked to sub-hunting. According to them, this is no surprise. A US sub can tell the ship where it will be, what direction it's going in, how fast, and where exactly to look, and the Frigate still wouldn't be able to detect it. Submarines are very difficult to find, even when they're in close proximity to a fleet.

 

[trenchfoot]

what would the chinese have to gain by exposing themselves from surfacing after what would have been considered a successful stalking maneuver?

if in fact the chinese did it successfully, why would they let on that they found a weakness in the fleet defense grid and lose the huge advantage such a valuable manuever would bring?

it's rather ludicrous to think that the captain of that boat would risk so much controversy to surface that close to the fleet just to stick his tongue out and embarass the hell out of those "arrogant imperialist expansionist capitalists".

i think it more plausible that the chinese sub got detected early on, got driven to its breaching point and was flushed to the surface either by asw methods and/or from diplomatic negotiations after being detected and manuevered into a position of disadvantage.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: tweaker2
what would the chinese have to gain by exposing themselves from surfacing after what would have been considered a successful stalking maneuver?

if in fact the chinese did it successfully, why would they let on that they found a weakness in the fleet defense grid and lose the huge advantage such a valuable manuever would bring?

it's rather ludicrous to think that the captain of that boat would risk so much controversy to surface that close to the fleet just to stick his tongue out and embarass the hell out of those "arrogant imperialist expansionist capitalists".

i think it more plausible that the chinese sub got detected early on, got driven to its breaching point and was flushed to the surface either by asw methods and/or from diplomatic negotiations after being detected and manuevered into a position of disadvantage.

Or the ability to thumb their nose at the US imperialists.

They had a major loss of face when their top of the line fighter was downed by an unarmed prop plane.

Had the US used ASW methods to foce the sub to surface, there would have been an announcement about it.

Surfacing in the middle of a battle group would be the ultimate show of defiance without actually causing an combat incident.

China has what has been considered to be a brown water Navy (shallow operations), not a deep water Navy (Pacific). This incident demonstrates that China has the ability to not let the US control the China Sea, Taiwan Straights and other bodies of water around China without being able to be challenged.

 

[umbrella39]

Color me shocked! The prodigal P&N son returns to post the SOS, different country.

 

[trenchfoot]

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper

Originally posted by: tweaker2
what would the chinese have to gain by exposing themselves from surfacing after what would have been considered a successful stalking maneuver?

if in fact the chinese did it successfully, why would they let on that they found a weakness in the fleet defense grid and lose the huge advantage such a valuable manuever would bring?

it's rather ludicrous to think that the captain of that boat would risk so much controversy to surface that close to the fleet just to stick his tongue out and embarass the hell out of those "arrogant imperialist expansionist capitalists".

i think it more plausible that the chinese sub got detected early on, got driven to its breaching point and was flushed to the surface either by asw methods and/or from diplomatic negotiations after being detected and manuevered into a position of disadvantage.

Or the ability to thumb their nose at the US imperialists.

They had a major loss of face when their top of the line fighter was downed by an unarmed prop plane.

Had the US used ASW methods to foce the sub to surface, there would have been an announcement about it.

Surfacing in the middle of a battle group would be the ultimate show of defiance without actually causing an combat incident.

China has what has been considered to be a brown water Navy (shallow operations), not a deep water Navy (Pacific). This incident demonstrates that China has the ability to not let the US control the China Sea, Taiwan Straights and other bodies of water around China without being able to be challenged.

good points all.:thumbsup:

but do you think it reasonable and worth it for the chinese, if it were due to technique and/or technology to let go of such a tactically advantageous manuever just to make the US military lose face.....or was it just an incident of dumb luck that they decided to take advantage of?

keeping in mind that militarily, communist bloc countries have the habit of having their political leaders keep tight rein over and micromanage their military for political gain, what that chinese sub crew did would have to have been approved from a grade level way above what was on that boat at the time.

 

[ayabe]

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper

Originally posted by: tweaker2
what would the chinese have to gain by exposing themselves from surfacing after what would have been considered a successful stalking maneuver?

if in fact the chinese did it successfully, why would they let on that they found a weakness in the fleet defense grid and lose the huge advantage such a valuable manuever would bring?

it's rather ludicrous to think that the captain of that boat would risk so much controversy to surface that close to the fleet just to stick his tongue out and embarass the hell out of those "arrogant imperialist expansionist capitalists".

i think it more plausible that the chinese sub got detected early on, got driven to its breaching point and was flushed to the surface either by asw methods and/or from diplomatic negotiations after being detected and manuevered into a position of disadvantage.

Or the ability to thumb their nose at the US imperialists.

They had a major loss of face when their top of the line fighter was downed by an unarmed prop plane.

Had the US used ASW methods to foce the sub to surface, there would have been an announcement about it.

Surfacing in the middle of a battle group would be the ultimate show of defiance without actually causing an combat incident.

China has what has been considered to be a brown water Navy (shallow operations), not a deep water Navy (Pacific). This incident demonstrates that China has the ability to not let the US control the China Sea, Taiwan Straights and other bodies of water around China without being able to be challenged.

I think we lost out on that one, their pilot was trying to intimidate our guys and the planes collided, in the end it resulted in them getting a good look at one of our spy planes, and they got to put our nuts in a vice about it for a couple weeks. Net result = China 1, US 0.

 

[fskimospy]

Astrofan is right... I was friends with the sonar operators on my ship (a cruiser), and detecting a sub, even if they knew it was there, was the exception rather then the rule. True, our sonar sucked and was super old... and cruisers are not robust ASW platforms... but still. If the BG was not conducting ASW operations it is extremely unlikely that the sub surfaced because they had been detected.

 

[trenchfoot]

Originally posted by: ayabe

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper

Originally posted by: tweaker2
what would the chinese have to gain by exposing themselves from surfacing after what would have been considered a successful stalking maneuver?

if in fact the chinese did it successfully, why would they let on that they found a weakness in the fleet defense grid and lose the huge advantage such a valuable manuever would bring?

it's rather ludicrous to think that the captain of that boat would risk so much controversy to surface that close to the fleet just to stick his tongue out and embarass the hell out of those "arrogant imperialist expansionist capitalists".

i think it more plausible that the chinese sub got detected early on, got driven to its breaching point and was flushed to the surface either by asw methods and/or from diplomatic negotiations after being detected and manuevered into a position of disadvantage.

Or the ability to thumb their nose at the US imperialists.

They had a major loss of face when their top of the line fighter was downed by an unarmed prop plane.

Had the US used ASW methods to foce the sub to surface, there would have been an announcement about it.

Surfacing in the middle of a battle group would be the ultimate show of defiance without actually causing an combat incident.

China has what has been considered to be a brown water Navy (shallow operations), not a deep water Navy (Pacific). This incident demonstrates that China has the ability to not let the US control the China Sea, Taiwan Straights and other bodies of water around China without being able to be challenged.

I think we lost out on that one, their pilot was trying to intimidate our guys and the planes collided, in the end it resulted in them getting a good look at one of our spy planes, and they got to put our nuts in a vice about it for a couple weeks. Net result = China 1, US 0.

from your specific point of view, i'd say china came away with a blowout, as that plane and pilot they lost is to them insignificant in actual cost, but highly significant from a political point of view.

however, as eaglekeeper pointed out, and especially so for the chinese air force in particular, in this particular instance when that mig got taken down by an unarmed serveillance plane it made the chinese military look inept. being publicly humiliated and disgraced in such a fashion for the chinese had to have created feelings of embarrasment and shame that consequently demanded retribution, no matter how long it took.

 

[Kwaipie]

While at sea, a carrier group will have at least 4 ASW platforms along for the ride. These 4 ships will have a sonar crew on watch while at sea at least monitoring passive sonar. Granted, if it was a diesel boat, it is very unlikely that a non-towed-array sonar will be able to pick it up while on battery. 5 miles may as well be 50 miles for a sub of the type the Chinese are using. It would have gone active sonar to get a firing solution and the carrier's ASW ships would have been all over it like white on um rice.

Kwai - STGC, USN