Chinese sub suprises USS Kitty Hawk

[ThePresence]

Text
This is worrisome.

The carrier was not engaged in anti-submarine warfare exercises at the time and thus did not have active patrols for submarines, the Navy official said. As a result, submarine defenses for the carrier and its accompanying warships will be reviewed, he said.

I don't know, I would think that a carrier would be on the lookout for subs at all times.



We have a thread in P&N on this subject.

Please use it.

Anandtech Moderator

 

[thirdeye]

They were just trying to save money by not having the systems on

 

[Phokus]

The question is, why the F*** are we patrolling pacific waters anyway? We're not the world's police.

 

[Queasy]

This post from Michelle Malkin's blog about this has a couple of interesting responses from former submariners:

[T]he Song-class diesel boat was spotted on the surface about five miles from the Kitty Hawk. So, either the Chinese were trying desperately to let us know that they could get that close to us, or this is another of a series of attempts by the Chinese to send their submarines farther afield where they just can't seem to stay undetected and/or submerged. Since they have nothing to gain by taunting us like that, I vote for the second option.

For some background: the Chinese were probably interested in checking out preparations for the Annualex 18G exercises taking place south of Kyushu. The media will probably try to make a big deal out of the presence of Asheville and Seawolf in the exercise, and claim that even our vaunted nuclear attack subs couldn't stop the Chinese sub from approaching the carrier. Even if that is true, it's more likely that the subs would have been some distance off, tasked with preparing for the exercise. To re-iterate: any decent diesel boat could approach this close to a carrier during peacetime. This doesn't mean they could do it during periods of heightened tensions. The Chinese Song-class sub is a tiny little 2,250 ton boat that is the first indigenously-designed Chinese boat; it's probably about two generations behind Western or Russian diesel boats.

I served on a fast attack sub & I concur with the bubblehead who commented. It's no big deal. However, I am willing to bet that one of our nuclear subs who detected the diesel sub, alerted the carrier (and the anti-sub helicopters) and was actually tracking the diesel.

Steve Brock
USS Lapon SSN661

As a former submariner (USS Louisville SSN724), I agree with Bubblehead's analysis. Although China seems to be fielding more capable subs as of late, they are still lagging by a generation or two compared to technological capabilities of our current (although dwindling) sub fleet. I don't necessarily agree that the Chinese sub's broaching (inadvertent surfacing) was in this case a function of their lag in technologically; more often it is a lack in shipboard operational proficiency or a tactical understanding of the ocean environment. He is right on about the likelihood of the two "in-theater" boats - the Seawolf and the Asheville - being far off in preps for the exercise, as this is the standard scenario for military exercises involving submarines.

Dear Michelle,

I smiled when I read the newspaper's account of this Chinese submarine.

First, unless it is wartime what do they expect the US to do when a diesel submarine approaches? Blow it out of the water? US aircraft groups are always shadowed by Russian submarines (or almost always) when they are anywhere near Russian territory. But unless there's good reason to believe there is about to be an attack, US submarines won't blow them out of the water. They will, however, take the opportunity to observe and record.

Second, the Navy will not generally comment on whether they detected the Chinese submarine or not. Any decision to do so would have to take place at the level of the Pentagon or higher. The reasoning is simple: you don't want the enemy to know your vulnerabilities OR your capabilities. The only way to know whether this diesel sub was being tracked or not is to wait until we are at war with China. Even then you might never know since the poor, noisy thing would probably be at the bottom of the sea before it ever got within a dozen miles of a US aircraft carrier group.

If you're a betting person, put chips on the fact the Chinese sub's whereabouts were known the second it left Chinese ports. The fact it was able to surface within visual distance of a USS aircraft carrier is due to the simple fact that we are not at war with China -- yet. I pity the Chinese sub's crew if they try that during wartime.

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: Phokus
The question is, why the F*** are we patrolling pacific waters anyway? We're not the world's police.

It was an excercise.
Kitty Hawk Carrier Group is based in Okinowa, Japan.

 

[rivan]

Originally posted by: ThePresence
Text
This is worrisome.

The carrier was not engaged in anti-submarine warfare exercises at the time and thus did not have active patrols for submarines, the Navy official said. As a result, submarine defenses for the carrier and its accompanying warships will be reviewed, he said.

I don't know, I would think that a carrier would be on the lookout for subs at all times.

Wow. I'd have thought so, too.

 

[NatePo717]

When I read the title I was thinking they were surprised by a Chinese sandwich.....

 

[Queasy]

Originally posted by: Phokus
The question is, why the F*** are we patrolling pacific waters anyway? We're not the world's police.

Hawaii, Alaska, California, Oregon, Washington, our allies Canada, Japan, Phillipines, South Korea, Taiwan....

 

[911paramedic]

Originally posted by: Phokus
The question is, why the F*** are we patrolling pacific waters anyway? We're not the world's police.

Uh, we patrol all the oceans.

On to the story, there is an admiral in charge of that carrier group that has some explaining to do. Diesel subs are quiet when running on battery power as well, and if they weren't listening it probably wasn't that difficult.

/admirals advancement potential.

 

[Chaotic42]

Originally posted by: Phokus
The question is, why the F*** are we patrolling pacific waters anyway? We're not the world's police.

Good point. Our Navy personnel should just sit in port and throw stones at each other. With no training and no advanced warning, we're sure to do well in any naval conflict.

 

[TheSlamma]

I love how these military guys are confused about why China is building up a Navy.

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: TheSlamma
I love how these military guys are confused about why China is building up a Navy.

They're not confused, seems to me that they're suprised at how bad their intel was.

 

[Specop 007]

Originally posted by: 911paramedic

Originally posted by: Phokus
The question is, why the F*** are we patrolling pacific waters anyway? We're not the world's police.

Uh, we patrol all the oceans.

On to the story, there is an admiral in charge of that carrier group that has some explaining to do. Diesel subs are quiet when running on battery power as well, and if they weren't listening it probably wasn't that difficult.

/admirals advancement potential.

More quiet then nuke subus actually, provided its a current technology sub. New technology deisel electric subs truly are a hole in the water.

 

[P.O.W.]

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: Phokus
The question is, why the F*** are we patrolling pacific waters anyway? We're not the world's police.

It was an excercise.
Kitty Hawk Carrier Group is based in Okinowa, Japan.

It could only happen near Japan since that Chinese diesel powered sub probably could not get too far from home base.

 

[Chaotic42]

Originally posted by: P.O.W.

It could only happen near Japan since that Chinese diesel powered sub probably could not get too far from home base.

I thought that some of the Gato class subs in WW2 left from Pearl Harbor and could patrol near Japan. Surely the Chinese diesels are capable of more than that.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: 911paramedic

Originally posted by: Phokus
The question is, why the F*** are we patrolling pacific waters anyway? We're not the world's police.

Uh, we patrol all the oceans.

On to the story, there is an admiral in charge of that carrier group that has some explaining to do. Diesel subs are quiet when running on battery power as well, and if they weren't listening it probably wasn't that difficult.

/admirals advancement potential.

More quiet then nuke subus actually, provided its a current technology sub. New technology deisel electric subs truly are a hole in the water.

The Germans make some really nice stuff these days. Tandem fuel cell/deisel boats.

Battery endurance is not sufficent to shadow a fast carrier group for long though.

 

[Specop 007]

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: 911paramedic

Originally posted by: Phokus
The question is, why the F*** are we patrolling pacific waters anyway? We're not the world's police.

Uh, we patrol all the oceans.

On to the story, there is an admiral in charge of that carrier group that has some explaining to do. Diesel subs are quiet when running on battery power as well, and if they weren't listening it probably wasn't that difficult.

/admirals advancement potential.

More quiet then nuke subus actually, provided its a current technology sub. New technology deisel electric subs truly are a hole in the water.

The Germans make some really nice stuff these days. Tandem fuel cell/deisel boats.

Battery endurance is not sufficent to shadow a fast carrier group for long though.

As do the Swiss.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: Chaotic42

Originally posted by: P.O.W.

It could only happen near Japan since that Chinese diesel powered sub probably could not get too far from home base.

I thought that some of the Gato class subs in WW2 left from Pearl Harbor and could patrol near Japan. Surely the Chinese diesels are capable of more than that.

IIRC, the Gatos and later Balaos could patrol that far. The US actually had what were the best subs when WWII started. Our torpedos, commanders, and strategy however sucked ass for a while.

The blue water still belongs to the USN ever since the Soviet Union went tits up, though the Chinese are trying to change that.

 

[j00fek]

its all about the war games

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: 911paramedic

Originally posted by: Phokus
The question is, why the F*** are we patrolling pacific waters anyway? We're not the world's police.

Uh, we patrol all the oceans.

On to the story, there is an admiral in charge of that carrier group that has some explaining to do. Diesel subs are quiet when running on battery power as well, and if they weren't listening it probably wasn't that difficult.

/admirals advancement potential.

More quiet then nuke subus actually, provided its a current technology sub. New technology deisel electric subs truly are a hole in the water.

The Germans make some really nice stuff these days. Tandem fuel cell/deisel boats.

Battery endurance is not sufficent to shadow a fast carrier group for long though.

As do the Swiss.

You mean the Swedes?

 

[Baked]

Talk about slacking on the job. I gotta move the F away from coastal cities before they get nuked, and the US government wouldn't know who hit them.

 

[Thraxen]

There's two types of vessels in the water: submarines and targets.

 

[Specop 007]

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: 911paramedic

Originally posted by: Phokus
The question is, why the F*** are we patrolling pacific waters anyway? We're not the world's police.

Uh, we patrol all the oceans.

On to the story, there is an admiral in charge of that carrier group that has some explaining to do. Diesel subs are quiet when running on battery power as well, and if they weren't listening it probably wasn't that difficult.

/admirals advancement potential.

More quiet then nuke subus actually, provided its a current technology sub. New technology deisel electric subs truly are a hole in the water.

The Germans make some really nice stuff these days. Tandem fuel cell/deisel boats.

Battery endurance is not sufficent to shadow a fast carrier group for long though.

As do the Swiss.

You mean the Swedes?

Bah, yes the Swedes.
Hell, close enough