China says no to MS software

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Like they ever paid for it in the first place. Last time I was in China you could get MS Office for $1.50 on any street corner. Ya continue to buy thier crap while they have no compunction about stealing ours. Free trade woohooo. To bad it only works one way for them because they are so nationalist.
 

Double Trouble

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,272
103
106
If you were in charge of India, Russia, China, or any other country with a lot of intellectual capacity in terms of programmers and such, wouldn't it make sense that you wouldn't support a monopoly from another country? Not that I like or support China in any way, but it makes perfect sense from their perspective, as it does for a multitude of other countries.....
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Originally posted by: tagej
If you were in charge of India, Russia, China, or any other country with a lot of intellectual capacity in terms of programmers and such, wouldn't it make sense that you wouldn't support a monopoly from another country? Not that I like or support China in any way, but it makes perfect sense from their perspective, as it does for a multitude of other countries.....
There is no reason to import goods and services when you can export and develop your own manufacturing base at the same time and by doing this become a super power... money makes a nation strong... obviously. So why even invest in the R&D to develop a product.. steal and produce a copy and market that... makes good sense to me. Why play fair when playing fair allows your 'enemy' to grow stronger..
The US needs to bring all its consumption back to US made goods and services... the Pat Buchanan theory is sound... IMO.
 

Tab

Lifer
Sep 15, 2002
12,145
0
71
Maybe China will be nice and setup some English Speaking 1 Gigabit Direct Connect Hubs :D
 

Double Trouble

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,272
103
106
There is no reason to import goods and services when you can export and develop your own manufacturing base at the same time and by doing this become a super power... money makes a nation strong... obviously. So why even invest in the R&D to develop a product.. steal and produce a copy and market that... makes good sense to me. Why play fair when playing fair allows your 'enemy' to grow stronger..
The US needs to bring all its consumption back to US made goods and services... the Pat Buchanan theory is sound... IMO.
I'm not sure I follow. They decide to do their own R&D and develop their own product, supporting their own developers instead of spending money on a product developed by a monopolist in another country. How exactly is that "not fair"? And, since when has "not fair" ever come into play when it comes to international business? Do you honestly think that any US corporation such as MS (or a corporation from any other country for that matter) believes in "fair"? Of course not, they do whatever they can legally get away with to make the most money, end of story.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Originally posted by: tagej
There is no reason to import goods and services when you can export and develop your own manufacturing base at the same time and by doing this become a super power... money makes a nation strong... obviously. So why even invest in the R&D to develop a product.. steal and produce a copy and market that... makes good sense to me. Why play fair when playing fair allows your 'enemy' to grow stronger..
The US needs to bring all its consumption back to US made goods and services... the Pat Buchanan theory is sound... IMO.
I'm not sure I follow. They decide to do their own R&D and develop their own product, supporting their own developers instead of spending money on a product developed by a monopolist in another country. How exactly is that "not fair"? And, since when has "not fair" ever come into play when it comes to international business? Do you honestly think that any US corporation such as MS (or a corporation from any other country for that matter) believes in "fair"? Of course not, they do whatever they can legally get away with to make the most money, end of story.

I think I said what I think I said... and that is; why would china etc. import the product of another nation when it could develop it itself or steal it and save the development money. The objective of china is to employ Chinese folks and not Americans. MS, for example, seeks to expand its market on the back of the US consumer... Lower prices in other nations... given the only cost involved is the marketing and shipping and the price of the paper and disc... the balance of the revenue goes to the bottom line. We need to not procure goods and services made abroad,,, this will increase demand for US goods and increase the supply of them goods... (lets not consider the elasticity of supply and demand for now) and folks will go to work... lots of them... prices will rise and so will inflation but, it's better than what we have now...
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
I really feel the marketing of MS products by MS ought to get Taft Hartley look see again. They clearly are a monopoly and ought to be regulated... Their profit margin is clearly a gouge on the American and World markets.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Originally posted by: LunarRay
I really feel the marketing of MS products by MS ought to get Taft Hartley look see again. They clearly are a monopoly and ought to be regulated... Their profit margin is clearly a gouge on the American and World markets.

Taft Hartley is a joke. T had to sue itself to break up to give chuncks to various family members and officers. I can think of at least 30 whole industries that are monoploy/oligarchy controlled. Where either the barriers to entry are so high now or they have the ability to shut a competitor down instantly. Gates was lucky thats it, snuck in behind these conglomerates and became one himself, usually he would have been gobbled up by IBM. I have heard they are given company specific tax breaks in the IRS code. When's the last time an auto maker, oil company, Phramacutical Co opened? We are run by corporations. And if anyone questions it The huge media coporations will not give you any play.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Zebo,
Yes, but, computers are becoming something akin to the phone company and the software drives em. I think I could argue a case of similarity.. and a break up between the operating system and the other software. With the operating system regulated and the other parts free to operated against the competition. This is logical and, I'd argue, in the best interest of the consumer. I'll send an amicus brief on the open cases against MS.. Sun has one I think and two or three states... Too bad my name is not Tribe or Olsen and not part of the argument.. :D... but, alas I'm but a lowly bag head accountant..:D
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Originally posted by: tagej
If you were in charge of India, Russia, China, or any other country with a lot of intellectual capacity in terms of programmers and such, wouldn't it make sense that you wouldn't support a monopoly from another country? Not that I like or support China in any way, but it makes perfect sense from their perspective, as it does for a multitude of other countries.....
Well this is carry over in from an article I read in Forbes. Basically Gates lowered the price to single digits to installs and demanded the chineese Govt enforce copyright laws on the streets and businesses with in china visa vi the WTO and US government warnings. Instead the Chinese simply choose to develop thier own. It goes to show their complete unwillingness to buy anything from us and want their goods to flow here unimpeded. It's just a pattern I've seen over the years with rice with capital equipment etc. Chinese are hard core nationalists. We should be to if they don't want to play fair. Plus they make abolute junk.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
How about Kodack trying to get film into the Japanese market..

Isolate, and buy American...
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Originally posted by: LunarRay
Zebo,
Yes, but, computers are becoming something akin to the phone company and the software drives em. I think I could argue a case of similarity.. and a break up between the operating system and the other software. With the operating system regulated and the other parts free to operated against the competition. This is logical and, I'd argue, in the best interest of the consumer. I'll send an amicus brief on the open cases against MS.. Sun has one I think and two or three states... Too bad my name is not Tribe or Olsen and not part of the argument.. :D... but, alas I'm but a lowly bag head accountant..:D
Actually this very division proposal was on the table...However MS won on appeal to a new Judge. It's a shame when a company has 90+% of the install base they are not called a monopoly and broken up. Hell a free product can't even complete with that (Linux) and now they are the finacncers to sue Linux!!

 

zephyrprime

Diamond Member
Feb 18, 2001
7,510
2
81
it makes perfect sense from their perspective, as it does for a multitude of other countries.....
You're definitely right with your cynical logic. But I would like to point out that your observation applies to just about any industry in any given country.

We're suckers for letting other nations get away with it. Sure, there's nothing directly we can do to get other nations to respect IP rights but we can put retaliatory trade sanctions on them.
 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
0
0
There's at least one significant problem with the Kodak angle . . . in America I can buy Fuji film of higher quality for a lower price than Kodak film.

As for the software angle, I remember buying a developers pack of Oracle 8 for $2.50 in Yogakarta, Indonesia back in 2000. I purchased another 20 titles or so . . . unfortunately a US baggage handler decided to enforce the copyrights. The long term interests of China, Indonesia, etc is to develop native talent while exploiting the utility of foreign products that enhance productivity. I doubt there's been a single advancing nation of modern times that didn't exploit the resources of some other society.

 

zephyrprime

Diamond Member
Feb 18, 2001
7,510
2
81
We need to not procure goods and services made abroad,,, this will increase demand for US goods and increase the supply of them goods
It would increase demand for US goods but it would no increase the supply of those goods. The US ships so many of its manufacturing jobs abroad that it cannot repatriate them all. There are probably 100+ million jobs positions abroad that make all the goods we in the US import. There are simply not enough extra people in the US to fill these positions if we were to try to repatriate them. Many many people that are now in crappy service jobs like retail would get manufacturing jobs instead but also many white collar workers making $$$ would have to get manufacturing jobs because their job position would no longer be affordable.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
could you imagine the economic stimulus the mention of only buying American made products and services would bring... folks would go out and spend out the ying yang... then Bush could say ..."well I really never said I would sign the legislation just that Congress ought to create a bill ..."
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
There's at least one significant problem with the Kodak angle . . . in America I can buy Fuji film of higher quality for a lower price than Kodak film.

As for the software angle, I remember buying a developers pack of Oracle 8 for $2.50 in Yogakarta, Indonesia back in 2000. I purchased another 20 titles or so . . . unfortunately a US baggage handler decided to enforce the copyrights. The long term interests of China, Indonesia, etc is to develop native talent while exploiting the utility of foreign products that enhance productivity. I doubt there's been a single advancing nation of modern times that didn't exploit the resources of some other society.
I don't blame them at all Bali, they understand a possitive trade deficit is a good thing for them, actually I admire them... Many people think when these things come up we are nation bashing or even the perverbial :racist: comment raises it's head out of the sand. However I'm simply informing USians of the nationalist psychology prevelent overseas (Almost always ASIA and mainly two counties Japan and China) and they can make thier own choice to support this. I won't until they start playing fair and change thier attitudes. ( and there is still that little mater of reparations to Tibetians, human rights, Japan to Koreans etc etc)
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Originally posted by: zephyrprime
We need to not procure goods and services made abroad,,, this will increase demand for US goods and increase the supply of them goods
It would increase demand for US goods but it would no increase the supply of those goods. The US ships so many of its manufacturing jobs abroad that it cannot repatriate them all. There are probably 100+ million jobs positions abroad that make all the goods we in the US import. There are simply not enough extra people in the US to fill these positions if we were to try to repatriate them. Many many people that are now in crappy service jobs like retail would get manufacturing jobs instead but also many white collar workers making $$$ would have to get manufacturing jobs because their job position would no longer be affordable.
I hate to say it but 1) service jobs suck IMO:p 2) service jobs don't make the world go round amnufacturing does. Every job is a biproduct of the manufacturing base.

If I don't make anything why do I need and accountant? Why do I need salesmen? Why do I need a PR representative? Bottom line is if we no longer make/mine/contsruct goods we don't need any of the associated service Jobs which are mearly ornaments on the christmas tree anyway. :)
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Ornaments on a tree.. Gee I never figured it that way.. :D I agree.. no mfg. no nothing.. I agree with Buchanan.. but, all goods and all services ought to be American made or provided.. the CEO/CFO will find ways to save money.. so they'll have remote CPA's from Lybia doing the audit.

interesting thing is the Indian programmer is saving money for the company which uses this savings to pay the CEO and maybe give a dividend to the owner... but, the issue is greed at the expense of American workers.. they are putting American's out of work and the Companies are, for the most part, American.. Only Americans should be allowed to own stock in American Companies... all foreign folks must forfeit their ownership. and ... No land may be owned in the US by non US citizens... any such land holding must be forfeited to the US Government.. I'm getting close to the 20thrillion$ in unfunded trusts, Zebo.. :D
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Originally posted by: LunarRay
Ornaments on a tree.. Gee I never figured it that way.. :D I agree.. no mfg. no nothing.. I agree with Buchanan.. but, all goods and all services ought to be American made or provided.. the CEO/CFO will find ways to save money.. so they'll have remote CPA's from Lybia doing the audit.

interesting thing is the Indian programmer is saving money for the company which uses this savings to pay the CEO and maybe give a dividend to the owner... but, the issue is greed at the expense of American workers.. they are putting American's out of work and the Companies are, for the most part, American.. Only Americans should be allowed to own stock in American Companies... all foreign folks must forfeit their ownership. and ... No land may be owned in the US by non US citizens... any such land holding must be forfeited to the US Government.. I'm getting close to the 20thrillion$ in unfunded trusts, Zebo.. :D
In China you can't own land or chinese stock unless you're chinese. :) I think they are on to something. So are you.:)


I read another story that foreigners own 35% of our corps....Then Japanese not wanting to buy american..as they are.. Have bought up huge ranches in MT and WY for thier beef. i guess they fiqure if a japanese owns it it's safe


This country is unravling IMO and the great wealth created by people your age and your parents is being sold to the highest bidder. Kids today I think have less opportunity than in 1960s and 70's... Thank god we still have the military to get our way.:p

Buchanan is dead politically. He has been bismerched by the huge coporate media and left with a racist and isolationalist label. there is no stopping the corporate machine, speak out and die on the ashes of labels.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Zebo,
This country is unravling IMO and the great wealth created by people your age and your parents is being sold to the highest bidder. Kids today I think have less opportunity than in 1960s and 70's... Thank god we still have the military to get our way.

Buchanan is dead politically. He has been bismerched by the huge coporate media and left with a racist and isolationalist label. there is no stopping the corporate machine, speak out and die on the ashes of labels.
*************

There are alot of foreign holders of American Company Stock so I guess they are quasi American Companies and there are bunches of foreign holders of American debt so I guess it is imperitive to look see why a company ships its production offshore and if there is a stock holder influence.. maybe a payoff to management.. I trust no one.. I am an accountant ... I know they cheat, steal, lie and smile and say would you like to contribute to the RNC... or support our president and the troops. I saw a supplier of munitions supporting the war and a barber up at Pendleton with a sign "Support our Troops"... and another "Bring the troops home soon"... something odd... to me.. If you support the troops you'd not want them there... (Iraq) If you sold munitions you would want them to shoot alot.. and stay there.. Maybe even lobby for intervention elsewhere.. Greed..
I like Buchanan.. his economic philosophy. His feeling about support of Israel is known but, he don't want to waste the big picture for the little one.. maybe he says what is not construed in certain circles.. he's a bit Irish (Like me) and he spoke about the british parliment's view toward the Irish in 1845... "Let em starve" I think he calls it as he sees it. Refreshing... to know how someone really thinks..

If hard work and corporate management brought equal rewards they'd have made the golf courses much more difficult...
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
My Liberal friends trip when I tell them I support Buchanan. Way I look at it if people are employed they are happy and all this noise level crap like "race relations" etc goes away nicely.
 

ASK THE COMMUNITY