China ready to use "non-peaceful means" against DEMOCRACY in Taiwan - Why did China get the Olympic Games again?

[geecee]

Originally posted by: rchiu
[You are wrong. Taiwan was never part of PRC since the inception of PRC in 1949. If Taiwan was never part of PRC, how can it be a "breakaway" province?

In reality, Taiwan is an independent country. Taiwan has it's own government, economy and military. Taiwanese people have Taiwanese citizenship and live in a well-defined Taiwanese territory.

But it doesn't make a difference if there is a good justification or not when a country wants to invade another. We all see that power and tanks talk, and the victors write the history. As long as Taiwan remains an important issue for Chinese politicians, they won't take a soft stance over this. As long as China stays the most populous nation in the world with largest army, nations are gonna be take favorable position with China.

Taiwanese gotta be smart and play politics correctly to stay prosperous and free. As long as Taiwan doesn't declare outright independence or appear to be working on getting recognition, China won't do much to change the current situation. After all, you can say whatever you want about Chinese military, but if they do invade Taiwan, they risk taking high casualty in the war, destroying a prosperous Taiwanese economy, and slowing their own economy and foreign investment.

I'm assuming that you are disagreeing with Eaglekeeper? As I believe the point I was trying to make in my post agreed with yours. Taiwan is, for all intents and purposes, a independent nation. The mainland just bullies other countries into not recognizing Taiwan diplomatically, by threatening less favorable trade status/diplomatic standing with the offending nation.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Japan gave up the rights to Formosa and ceded it back to China as part of the surrender.

Formosa was never handed to the PRC. It was handed to China.

The situation is that the Nationalists ran (were beaten) and took refuge on an island that belonged to the country that they were fighting for control of.

The Nationalist just took the island over and succeeded because of the intra-structure that the Japanese left. That gave them a leg up of the Communists in economic might.

Where can anyone say that Formosa was given to the Nationalist by the WWII powers.

The situation in Korea was different. The country was divided only becuase the 38th was agreed as a arbitrary dividing line with respect to the surrender of the Japanese armny there. Those north were to surrender to the Russions. Those south went to the Americans. That is what cause the Communist vs non-Communists dividing line. Russia controled the upper half and instituted their type of government. The US controlled the lower section and instituted their brand of government.

The same happend in Germany/Europe.

What the Russians controlled was agreeed to be "supervised" by the Russians. They instituted the Communist style.
That which was controlled by the US/Brithis (and to a lesser extent France) was given the Western style goverment.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: geecee
I'm assuming that you are disagreeing with Eaglekeeper? As I believe the point I was trying to make in my post agreed with yours. Taiwan is, for all intents and purposes, a independent nation. The mainland just bullies other countries into not recognizing Taiwan diplomatically, by threatening less favorable trade status/diplomatic standing with the offending nation.

I agree that Taiwan acts as an independent nation anbd probably should be. However, their status is that of a break-away province.

China (PRC) has a large enough stick that other countries do not want to challenge them. Taiwan also realizes that to force a confontation would not succeed and cause at a minimum loss of face and change the status quo.

 

[Pepsei]

In 1895, Japan gained control of Taiwan as a result of the first Chinese-Japanese War. The Japanese developed Taiwan's agriculture and industry and expanded its transportation networks. China regained Taiwan after World War II ended in 1945. In 1949, the Chinese Communists defeated Chiang Kai-shek's Nationalist forces and took control of the mainland. Chiang moved his government to Taiwan on Dec. 8, 1949.

After WWII, the government in China at that time is still the nationalist government of ROC so technically speaking, PRC never owned Taiwan so it couldn't breakaway from something it never belong to.

I think ROC also shot itself in the foot by sticking with the one China policy.

 

[rchiu]

Originally posted by: geecee

Originally posted by: rchiu
[You are wrong. Taiwan was never part of PRC since the inception of PRC in 1949. If Taiwan was never part of PRC, how can it be a "breakaway" province?

In reality, Taiwan is an independent country. Taiwan has it's own government, economy and military. Taiwanese people have Taiwanese citizenship and live in a well-defined Taiwanese territory.

But it doesn't make a difference if there is a good justification or not when a country wants to invade another. We all see that power and tanks talk, and the victors write the history. As long as Taiwan remains an important issue for Chinese politicians, they won't take a soft stance over this. As long as China stays the most populous nation in the world with largest army, nations are gonna be take favorable position with China.

Taiwanese gotta be smart and play politics correctly to stay prosperous and free. As long as Taiwan doesn't declare outright independence or appear to be working on getting recognition, China won't do much to change the current situation. After all, you can say whatever you want about Chinese military, but if they do invade Taiwan, they risk taking high casualty in the war, destroying a prosperous Taiwanese economy, and slowing their own economy and foreign investment.

I'm assuming that you are disagreeing with Eaglekeeper? As I believe the point I was trying to make in my post agreed with yours. Taiwan is, for all intents and purposes, a independent nation. The mainland just bullies other countries into not recognizing Taiwan diplomatically, by threatening less favorable trade status/diplomatic standing with the offending nation.

Hehe, quoted the wrong reply . It's been a long day.

Anyway, yeah, Taiwan is pretty much an independent nation, except China bully everyone into not recognizing it. But I also want to point out that not having the claim doesn't mean China won't attack Taiwan if Taiwan decides to go independent. Hey, if America can invade a soverign nation based on BS WMD claim, why can't China invade Taiwan based on BS claim like Taiwan belongs to China. So the right thing to do for Taiwanese to do is play the politics and settle for the current mode.

 

[EagleKeeper]

As you stated, China regained contrl of Taiwan in 1945.
The Nationalists and Communists were in a civil war before and afterwards.

Japan interventioned casued both groups to put aside their squabbles in the beginning.

Now back to the timeline.

Taiwan was returned to China. Therefore is was part of the mainland.
The Nationalists gave up control of the mainland to the PRC and retreated to the Island.
That is equivalent to the changing of political parties.

At that point they politically seperated Taiwan from the mainland. They chose to sucede.
The PRC had other things to solve then. They controlled mainland politically, the Nationalists were broken as a political and military force to challenge them.

Now they had to worry about the US, Korea and Russia.

 

[geecee]

Eagle-

I think we're arguing semantics here. There were communists in Korea as well before, during and after the war. The conflict which split China was also with communists that existed before, during and after the war. In both countries, communists and non-communists briefly united to fight the Japanese. When the war ended, the inevitable conflicts happened. Since Korea was ceded by Japan to the victorious Allies and occupied by them (as you said Soviets in the north above the 38th and US in the south below the 38th), it just delayed civil war. Taiwan was ceded to China, which was still officially under Nationalist rule at the time. However, there were no foreign troops to prevent the Communist-Nationalist conflict. This ultimately resulted in the Nationalists withdrawing to Taiwan in '49. If you notice the Korean War began a little over a year after both sides withdrew troops (1950). I'd say other than the initial presence of foreign troops, the two conflicts were strikingly similar. South Korea, near defeat, requested the aid of the UN and troops from the US and several other nations responded. This is not any different than the Nationalists/Taiwan receiving aid in the form of naval support from the US. The Nationalists, were in fact, withdrawing to an island that was technically theirs (Taiwan became a province of China in 1947, during the civil war. The "theirs" part is arguable as the communists were mostly victorious and in control of China otherwise). I would also beg to differ on the amount of infrastructure left by the Japanese. I don't believe this contributed any significant economic advantage to the Nationalists.

The Nationalists did not at any time choose to secede, they continued to claim that they were the rightful gov't of China. It was just that Taiwan was the only piece of land they could keep control of.

 

[cchen]

Originally posted by: geecee

Originally posted by: cchen
Actually, for China, I think it is an act of power. If say Taiwan declares independence, that paves the way for HK to declare independence as well.

Agreed. It most certainly is. Which is why I think all of this posturing is pointless. On the flip side, other than diplomatic recognition and perhaps pride, I'm not sure what declaring independence does for Taiwan (especially when they so obviously already are)? :frown:

Taiwanese want to declare independence as a symbol that they are totally free of China and democratic. In the past few years, there's been a growing surge of nationalism. They want to be recognized as Taiwanese. I just came back from Taiwan in April after watching the election and I saw firsthand the nationalism that's been growing and will just keep on growing

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: geeceeThe Nationalists, were in fact, withdrawing to an island that was technically theirs (Taiwan became a province of China in 1947, during the civil war. The "theirs" part is arguable as the communists were mostly victorious and in control of China otherwise). I would also beg to differ on the amount of infrastructure left by the Japanese. I don't believe this contributed any significant economic advantage to the Nationalists.

The Nationalists did not at any time choose to secede, they continued to claim that they were the rightful gov't of China. It was just that Taiwan was the only piece of land they could keep control of.

The bold area is why I claim that Tawain belongs to mainland China.

Which politcal party is in power does not matter.

If they now choose to setup their own country and can
1) get the world bodies to recognize them
2) be able to convince the PRC that they should not duplicate the USSR similar to Hungrary and the rest of Eastern Europe


All the more power to them.

without both of those items above being handled, their will be another civl war.

I have seen articles that the Japanese left a strong infrastructure on Formosa, appaerently there was not heavy fighting there.

The scorched earth came on the mainland from both the Japanese retreat and the intal fighting amongh the communists and nationalist.

 

[bolido2000]

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper

Originally posted by: geeceeThe Nationalists, were in fact, withdrawing to an island that was technically theirs (Taiwan became a province of China in 1947, during the civil war. The "theirs" part is arguable as the communists were mostly victorious and in control of China otherwise). I would also beg to differ on the amount of infrastructure left by the Japanese. I don't believe this contributed any significant economic advantage to the Nationalists.

The Nationalists did not at any time choose to secede, they continued to claim that they were the rightful gov't of China. It was just that Taiwan was the only piece of land they could keep control of.

The bold area is why I claim that Tawain belongs to mainland China.

Which politcal party is in power does not matter.

If they now choose to setup their own country and can
1) get the world bodies to recognize them
2) be able to convince the PRC that they should not duplicate the USSR similar to Hungrary and the rest of Eastern Europe


All the more power to them.

without both of those items above being handled, their will be another civl war.

I have seen articles that the Japanese left a strong infrastructure on Formosa, appaerently there was not heavy fighting there.

The scorched earth came on the mainland from both the Japanese retreat and the intal fighting amongh the communists and nationalist.

I agree completely with you. As I Taiwanese I would like Taiwan to be independent. However, the reality is unless you want to go war, you better mantain the status quo. Reunification seems inminent. Taiwan is depending more and more on China economically. Even if Taiwan goes to war it will be destroyed. China doesn't need to invade Taiwan. It only needs to use all those missiles. Taiwan's constitution considered its bounderies to be mainland China, Taiwan, and Mongolia. Chen wants to change that to only reflect Taiwan those things are pissing China off and is understandle. No country would let one of its province declare independence. Spain with Basques, Canada with Quebec, Russia with Chechenya, etc

 

[rickn]

correct me if I'm wrong, but Taiwan is protected under the US's nuclear umbrella policy. China wouldn't be very wise to attack them.

 

[rickn]

Originally posted by: bolido2000

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper

Originally posted by: geeceeThe Nationalists, were in fact, withdrawing to an island that was technically theirs (Taiwan became a province of China in 1947, during the civil war. The "theirs" part is arguable as the communists were mostly victorious and in control of China otherwise). I would also beg to differ on the amount of infrastructure left by the Japanese. I don't believe this contributed any significant economic advantage to the Nationalists.

The Nationalists did not at any time choose to secede, they continued to claim that they were the rightful gov't of China. It was just that Taiwan was the only piece of land they could keep control of.

The bold area is why I claim that Tawain belongs to mainland China.

Which politcal party is in power does not matter.

If they now choose to setup their own country and can
1) get the world bodies to recognize them
2) be able to convince the PRC that they should not duplicate the USSR similar to Hungrary and the rest of Eastern Europe


All the more power to them.

without both of those items above being handled, their will be another civl war.

I have seen articles that the Japanese left a strong infrastructure on Formosa, appaerently there was not heavy fighting there.

The scorched earth came on the mainland from both the Japanese retreat and the intal fighting amongh the communists and nationalist.

I agree completely with you. As I Taiwanese I would like Taiwan to be independent. However, the reality is unless you want to go war, you better mantain the status quo. Reunification seems inminent. Taiwan is depending more and more on China economically. Even if Taiwan goes to war it will be destroyed. China doesn't need to invade Taiwan. It only needs to use all those missiles. Taiwan's constitution considered its bounderies to be mainland China, Taiwan, and Mongolia. Chen wants to change that to only reflect Taiwan those things are pissing China off and is understandle. No country would let one of its province declare independence. Spain with Basques, Canada with Quebec, Russia with Chechenya, etc

The people of Hong Kong are the first unfortunate victims of unification with mainland China. their democracy is being eroded day by day. I hope the Taiwanese fair better. Economically, a war between China and Taiwan would be disastrous

 

[Imdmn04]

Originally posted by: cchen
Taiwan is not a territory of China. It has never been and never will.

Taiwan was a part of China during the Qing dynasty. It was a part of the Fujian province.
Most Taiwanese are decedants from the Fujian province, as they speak the same native language.

When nationalists fled to Taiwan after they lost to the communists, they declared Taiwan as the only legitimate China, and was recognized by U.S. until the Nixon administration.

Objectively speaking, Taiwan is basically its own country right now without the recognition, but historically, it did belong to China. Like I said, it DID at least during the Qing dynasty, anything after that is debatable, you can't just deny history just because it doesn't fit with your political views.

I am biased toward for reconciliation through a peaceful way, however I am still way more objective than some of you here are. I recognize and acknowledge the fact that Taiwan is basically an autonomous country without the official name. I also support the Taiwanese for speaking what they believe in, even though I might not agree with their opinions. However please do not distort historic facts to tailor to your political opinions, you will not persuade anybody by doing that by purposefully misleading people of concrete facts.

When you speak objectively, people respect you for your opinions rather than seeing it as flame bait, and you might have a chance of persuading people like me, and others of the world to support you.

 

[Dangermouse33]

Originally posted by: Strk

Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Time to bring up a different perspective.

China considers Taiwan part of itself. Taiwan does not.

The whole conflict is about sovereignty. If a democratic nation had a part of itself want to break away, would it let that happen? Ask Lincoln's ghost. No, it would not happen.

Doesn't make it right, but everything throws around Democracy like it's the beginning and end of everything. It's looking a lot like religion.

China does not want Taiwan leaving because they think Taiwan is part of China.

Actually, Taiwan is over 60% Han Chinese. Taiwan also said they would join China under certain circumstances. If you snoop around the BBC you should be able to find a decent amount of information on the subject.

Okay, honestly, who the f*** in their right mind would want to join China...damn commies.

 

[AnImuS]

Taiwan wont be free any time soon. Unfortunately it doesnt have the choice on this matter. only the US&China. Until either country changes its stance taiwan will be stuck in its current position. They dont have the military force to break away. And neither does the US. If a war were ever to break out it wouldnt last long because both sides US&china cannot conquer one another. for these reasons,
A) We both have a sizeable nuclear arsenal.
B)China has a pop of 1.3Billion which means the largest pool of soldiers. The US can barely keep iraq from becoming a complete failure with only 25million people and a fraction the size of China's land size.
So occupying China is impossible.

 

[Pepsei]

(Taiwan became a province of China in 1947

Yeah, we can talk until we're blue in the face and we won't resolve our difference. in 1947, Taiwan became part of Republic of China, not People's Republic of China. So to me this is like a North Korea vs. South Korea (the Two Koreas). People's Republic of China never owned Taiwan, so they should have no claim over it.

No one wants to be part of China now after seeing Hong Kong getting a raw deal recently over their autonomous deal.

 

[geecee]

Originally posted by: Imdmn04

Originally posted by: cchen
Taiwan is not a territory of China. It has never been and never will.

Taiwan was a part of China during the Qing dynasty. It was a part of the Fujian province.
Most Taiwanese are decedants from the Fujian province, as they speak the same native language.

When nationalists fled to Taiwan after they lost to the communists, they declared Taiwan as the only legitimate China, and was recognized by U.S. until the Nixon administration.

Objectively speaking, Taiwan is basically its own country right now without the recognition, but historically, it did belong to China. Like I said, it DID at least during the Qing dynasty, anything after that is debatable, you can't just deny history just because it doesn't fit with your political views.

I am biased toward for reconciliation through a peaceful way, however I am still way more objective than some of you here are. I recognize and acknowledge the fact that Taiwan is basically an autonomous country without the official name. I also support the Taiwanese for speaking what they believe in, even though I might not agree with their opinions. However please do not distort historic facts to tailor to your political opinions, you will not persuade anybody by doing that by purposefully misleading people of concrete facts.

When you speak objectively, people respect you for your opinions rather than seeing it as flame bait, and you might have a chance of persuading people like me, and others of the world to support you.

I think we are all just being nitpicky here, although I think your last statement to cchen is a bit uncalled for. He probably meant "Red" China or PRC, not historical imperial China. It's like saying the US was once ruled by Great Britain. It's relevant to explain our traditions, but not our current foreign policy situations. Just FYI, most Chinese (Han), at least many of the older ones, don't consider the Qing dynasty a "Chinese" dynasty, as it was founded by outsiders (Manchus). (Ironic as it was one of the most prosperous and stable periods of imperial rule earlier on.) Thus, whether or not Taiwan was ever ruled by China, is still open for debate, depending on your POV. Even "facts" are open to interpretation. Otherwise, there wouldn't be "spin".

Anyway, the real point here is that conflict between China and Taiwan will be counterproductive for both, as well as the rest of the world.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: rickn
correct me if I'm wrong, but Taiwan is protected under the US's nuclear umbrella policy. China wouldn't be very wise to attack them.

Not officially. Though, there has always been the implied threat that a full-scale invasion (which would of course cause huge damage and enormous casualties on Taiwan) could draw a "strategic" response by the US against China.

If China used special weapons (chemical/biological/nuclear) during an invasion, It is very likely the US would deploy nuclear weapons against mainland China.

This is the primary reason China has not attempted to take Taiwan by force already.

 

[alphatarget1]

most taiwanese people don't give a crap about independence. they want things to remain in a status quo. yeah, if chen pushes for independence how is that "democracy"? like how he stole the election

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: alphatarget1
most taiwanese people don't give a crap about independence. they want things to remain in a status quo. yeah, if chen pushes for independence how is that "democracy"? like how he stole the election

Bingo...i've talked to a fwe taiwanese people about what thye think, and all want the current status quo to remain

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: alphatarget1
most taiwanese people don't give a crap about independence. they want things to remain in a status quo. yeah, if chen pushes for independence how is that "democracy"? like how he stole the election

Just like Puerto Rico here in the US.

 

[piasabird]

The Chinese would be foolish to attack Taiwan. We may not defend Taiwan, but we will supply them as needed as we have in the past. We will also probably cut off all our Trading status with China immediately. They really need this to attract business with the US.

Taiwan has countless factories in China. The Chinese are supported partially by the Computer industry that Taiwan is the maker of. If Taiwan is attacked, where will we get our computer parts from?

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: piasabird
The Chinese would be foolish to attack Taiwan. We may not defend Taiwan, but we will supply them as needed as we have in the past. We will also probably cut off all our Trading status with China immediately. They really need this to attract business with the US.

Taiwan has countless factories in China. The Chinese are supported partially by the Computer industry that Taiwan is the maker of. If Taiwan is attacked, where will we get our computer parts from?

If the situation occurs and the US wants to avoid a direct conflict, then Taiwan is in trouble.

PRC can cut blockade the island. Airlift would not be feasible.
If they took over the island, then they would have control of the industrial base (less what ever was destroyed). After such a conflict, therre will be plenty of companies still eager to help rebuild what ever was destroyed.

The US has postured before on China policies, yet we still trade with them.
as long as the electronic parts get shipped, no one will care what color are the lables on the boxes.

 

[bolido2000]

Well, even if China never "owned" Taiwan they still have enough arguments to go to war. It would simply mean that the war is still on.

 

[cchen]

Originally posted by: magomago

Originally posted by: alphatarget1
most taiwanese people don't give a crap about independence. they want things to remain in a status quo. yeah, if chen pushes for independence how is that "democracy"? like how he stole the election

Bingo...i've talked to a fwe taiwanese people about what thye think, and all want the current status quo to remain

[SARCASM]
Well there you have it! Because a few select Taiwanese people you've want to keep the status quo, they must not want independence.
[/SARCASM]

Frankly, you can't even define what the "status quo" really is at this point.