China ready to use "non-peaceful means" against DEMOCRACY in Taiwan - Why did China get the Olympic Games again?

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: cchen

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: cchen

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper

Did the US (North) invade the (South) to protect the sovernity of the union. That is no different than what mainland China see.

Taiwan was part of China until the end of WWII. Then it set up a seperate political government (in exile).
"Red" China at the time was to weak and trying to recover from the destruction caused by Japan to stop the opposition.

IT is a rebel territory and the olny reason why it is tolerated is due to the political balance.

Had roles been reversed, the US would not blink if the island was brought back into the fold.

Of couse it is quite different. The Civil War was well over 100 years ago. Today, something like that would never happen. If say, Maryland wanted to leave the US, would the US invade? Point missiles? I think not.

The US would not allow Maryland to leave.

Yes, but they wouldn't demolish it like China threatens to.

Who knows...I doubt that this situation is even possible.

Anyways, I'm all for Taiwan. Maybe I'm being hypocritical, but I don't care

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: cchen

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper

Why is it different. Tawain is a breakaway state that chose to setup a differnet political system than the rest of the country.

It is only because of the US might over the past 60 years, that China has not taken them by force.

The US policy has been flawed in having a two China policy which has encouraged Tawain attitudes and confused China preception of the US intentions.

So you feel that Taiwan is part of China??

Yes

 

[cchen]

Why?

 

[EagleKeeper]

As previously stated

Taiwan was part of China until the end of WWII. Then it set up a seperate political government (in exile).
"Red" China at the time was to weak and trying to recover from the destruction caused by Japan to stop the opposition.

Chiang Kai-shek was fighting Reds when China was invaded by Japan. Rather than taking on the Japanese, he weakened both China forces by continuing to chase the Communists. IT was the REds that forced a united China against the Japanese. After the surrender of Japan he restarted the internal conflict, the Reds gained the upper hand and the Nationalists bailed out of China in 49 and ran to the island of Formosa .
Mao Zedong had to consolidate he leadership and try to reshape the country. Chiang was just a thorn in his side at the time. No military power or threat.

The US realized that Chiang was to weak to re-occupy the mianland; they provide assistance to protect the isalnd from the Reds when the Reds grew strong enough to take control of the island. Still is happening today.

 

[cchen]

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
As previously stated

Taiwan was part of China until the end of WWII. Then it set up a seperate political government (in exile).
"Red" China at the time was to weak and trying to recover from the destruction caused by Japan to stop the opposition.

Chiang Kai-shek was fighting Reds when China was invaded by Japan. Rather than taking on the Japanese, he weakened both China forces by continuing to chase the Communists. IT was the REds that forced a united China against the Japanese. After the surrender of Japan he restarted the internal conflict, the Reds gained the upper hand and the Nationalists bailed out of China in 49 and ran to the island of Formosa .
Mao Zedong had to consolidate he leadership and try to reshape the country. Chiang was just a thorn in his side at the time. No military power or threat.

The US realized that Chiang was to weak to re-occupy the mianland; they provide assistance to protect the isalnd from the Reds when the Reds grew strong enough to take control of the island. Still is happening today.

And... that doesn't prove anything. Just because the people of Taiwan are those who fled COMMUNIST China, that means Taiwan is part of China? Have you been to Taiwan and China? If you haven't, they are completely different countries. Frankly, there is no way that any kind of reunification will ever be possible.

 

[geecee]

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
As previously stated

Taiwan was part of China until the end of WWII. Then it set up a seperate political government (in exile).
"Red" China at the time was to weak and trying to recover from the destruction caused by Japan to stop the opposition.

Chiang Kai-shek was fighting Reds when China was invaded by Japan. Rather than taking on the Japanese, he weakened both China forces by continuing to chase the Communists. IT was the REds that forced a united China against the Japanese. After the surrender of Japan he restarted the internal conflict, the Reds gained the upper hand and the Nationalists bailed out of China in 49 and ran to the island of Formosa .
Mao Zedong had to consolidate he leadership and try to reshape the country. Chiang was just a thorn in his side at the time. No military power or threat.

The US realized that Chiang was to weak to re-occupy the mianland; they provide assistance to protect the isalnd from the Reds when the Reds grew strong enough to take control of the island. Still is happening today.

These circumstances are what change your original premise, which is that Taiwan tried to "secede" from the Union so to speak, thus giving "Red" China the right to force them back in. The fact that both governments claimed sovereignty over the entire nation is what makes it different. This previously wasn't an issue of a province/state wanting independence. Only recently has this become the case. You'll probably find that a small majority (or large minority) of the island (those aforementioned Han Chinese) still considers themselves "Chinese" and not "Taiwanese". However, the numbers of descendants of the pre-'49 Taiwanese and the younger generations of "49-ers" who have only known living on the island are increasing steadily, and thus you have the "independence" movement taking shape in the last few decades. It still cannot, however, simply be viewed as a breakaway province.

EDIT: As an analogy, the situation more resembles North/South Korea, if North Korea were about 10X larger.

 

[0roo0roo]

we already see how they are trampling over democracy in hong kong. one country two systems my @ss.

 

[Strk]

Originally posted by: geecee

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
As previously stated

Taiwan was part of China until the end of WWII. Then it set up a seperate political government (in exile).
"Red" China at the time was to weak and trying to recover from the destruction caused by Japan to stop the opposition.

Chiang Kai-shek was fighting Reds when China was invaded by Japan. Rather than taking on the Japanese, he weakened both China forces by continuing to chase the Communists. IT was the REds that forced a united China against the Japanese. After the surrender of Japan he restarted the internal conflict, the Reds gained the upper hand and the Nationalists bailed out of China in 49 and ran to the island of Formosa .
Mao Zedong had to consolidate he leadership and try to reshape the country. Chiang was just a thorn in his side at the time. No military power or threat.

The US realized that Chiang was to weak to re-occupy the mianland; they provide assistance to protect the isalnd from the Reds when the Reds grew strong enough to take control of the island. Still is happening today.

These circumstances are what change your original premise, which is that Taiwan tried to "secede" from the Union so to speak, thus giving "Red" China the right to force them back in. The fact that both governments claimed sovereignty over the entire nation is what makes it different. This previously wasn't an issue of a province/state wanting independence. Only recently has this become the case. You'll probably find that a small majority (or large minority) of the island (those aforementioned Han Chinese) still considers themselves "Chinese" and not "Taiwanese". However, the numbers of descendants of the pre-'49 Taiwanese and the younger generations of "49-ers" who have only known living on the island are increasing steadily, and thus you have the "independence" movement taking shape in the last few decades. It still cannot, however, simply be viewed as a breakaway province.

EDIT: As an analogy, the situation more resembles North/South Korea, if North Korea were about 10X larger.

Except Taiwan's military is many times more advanced than China.

 

[Pepsei]

People's Republic of China has never own Taiwan. After WWII, Taiwan was "given" to Republic of China.

ROC had a seat in the UN, After Jimmy Carter establish a deplomatic relationship with PRC, Republic of China's seat at UN was taken away and given to the Mainland China.

What else did Jimmy Carter loose? Oh yeah, he gave up Panama canal. which, ironicly is "owned" by People's Republic of China now.

 

[EagleKeeper]

My analogy still holds with respect to the US Civil war.

A different political viewpoint wa established.
In the US case, the government felt strong enough to retain the integrity of the country and had the strength/resources to do so. Although the sucessionists had support of an outside country, the might of the North was able to succeed.

In the China situation, the Nationalists lost the civil war and ran. The US was able to protect the losers from the bad Reds. The Reds had other issues on there plate afterwards. Korea for one. After Korea, China has to worry about the USSR and start trying to pull itself into the 20th century. WWII and the civil war plus the purges werre crippling the country.

As I also stated, had the roles been reversed, the US would not have protected Tawain if the Reds had run there to setup a communist government. They would have encourage the Nationalists to get the island back on political control.

By the fact that Taiwan still needs the US for protection establishes that they can not stand on their own.
They are a part of China, just a renage province.

If they could stand politically, economically and militarily own their own then it would be a different story.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: Pepsei
People's Republic of China has never own Taiwan. After WWII, Taiwan was "given" to Republic of China.

ROC had a seat in the UN, After Jimmy Carter establish a deplomatic relationship with PRC, Republic of China's seat at UN was taken away and given to the Mainland China.

What else did Jimmy Carter loose? Oh yeah, he gave up Panama canal. which, ironicly is "owned" by People's Republic of China now.

Prior to WWII what couintry did Taiwan belong to?

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: Strk

Except Taiwan's military is many times more advanced than China.

The military may be more advance, but the amount of resources that the mainland can bring to bear can defeat the advantage.

China can afford to waste 2 million people as fodder.
Taiwan does not have the resources for a protracted struggle.
Without the US support, China could easily blockage the harbors, forcing a Berlin type airlift to keep the Taiwan government in power. However, in that scenario, who would continually provide the supplies.
In Berlin, the Soviets did not want a face-to-face fight. Without the US backing, mainland China would easily intimidate anyone that tried to help Taiwan.

 

[EagleKeeper]

You youngsters are letting your emotions overrule the actual history of events.

 

[Pepsei]

Before WW II, It was owned by Japan

PRC should try to reunit with Mongolia first, in fact, they have more ties with Mongolia than Taiwan ever did. It was quite easy for PRC to give up Mongolia and give it its "independece".

Mongolia should be part of China, remember the great Khan during the Jin Dynasty?

 

[Pepsei]

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper

Originally posted by: Strk

Except Taiwan's military is many times more advanced than China.

The military may be more advance, but the amount of resources that the mainland can bring to bear can defeat the advantage.

China can afford to waste 2 million people as fodder.
Taiwan does not have the resources for a protracted struggle.
Without the US support, China could easily blockage the harbors, forcing a Berlin type airlift to keep the Taiwan government in power. However, in that scenario, who would continually provide the supplies.
In Berlin, the Soviets did not want a face-to-face fight. Without the US backing, mainland China would easily intimidate anyone that tried to help Taiwan.

I agree, however, even with US support, Taiwan needs to hold off China's attack for 2-3 days. I think it'll be over in less than 24 hours just because of their large numbers of people. If Mainland is allowed to have direct flights to Taiwan, they can sneak a couple of 747 full of commandos and take over the Airport and get to the capital within a hour. Faster if they're allowed to use the "old" national airport by the capital.

 

[digitalsm]

Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Time to bring up a different perspective.

China considers Taiwan part of itself. Taiwan does not.

The whole conflict is about sovereignty. If a democratic nation had a part of itself want to break away, would it let that happen? Ask Lincoln's ghost. No, it would not happen.

Doesn't make it right, but everyone throws around Democracy like it's the beginning and end of everything. It's looking a lot like religion.

China does not want Taiwan leaving because they think Taiwan is part of China.

Didnt Tawian come about because the communists took over? How exactly is it fair for the communists to take over either? IIRC the Chinese govt fled to Formosa(present day Taiwan) when the communists won the war, thanks to the Soviet Union occupying China, and supplying the communists with weapons.

Maybe my history is a bit off.

 

[geecee]

Except Taiwan's military is many times more advanced than China.

True. But the gap may be closer than you think.

Anyway, the mainland Chinese seem to be willing to go to great lengths to prevent Taiwan from declaring independence, despite their rapidly diverging cultures. The pro-independence Taiwanese seem equally fervent about becoming an independent nation. Both sides seem crazed beyond reason by this. I recall walking through a mass of protesters near the Waldorf Astoria (in New York City) when Taiwan's President Chen was in town a few months back. On one side of the street were the "Reds", and on the other, pro-Taiwan rallyers. Talk about ridiculous. The mainlanders were chanting "Taiwan is part of China!", repeatedly in English and Chinese, some of them with bullhorns. On the other side of the street, similar (but opposite) chants were going on, with each side trying to drown out the other. Chen could not possibly have gotten any sleep that night, nor anyone at the Waldorf for that matter.

If you want my rather cynical opinion on all of this, just look back a few posts. If you don't care, don't.

 

[digitalsm]

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
My analogy still holds with respect to the US Civil war.

A different political viewpoint wa established.
In the US case, the government felt strong enough to retain the integrity of the country and had the strength/resources to do so. Although the sucessionists had support of an outside country, the might of the North was able to succeed.

In the China situation, the Nationalists lost the civil war and ran. The US was able to protect the losers from the bad Reds. The Reds had other issues on there plate afterwards. Korea for one. After Korea, China has to worry about the USSR and start trying to pull itself into the 20th century. WWII and the civil war plus the purges werre crippling the country.

As I also stated, had the roles been reversed, the US would not have protected Tawain if the Reds had run there to setup a communist government. They would have encourage the Nationalists to get the island back on political control.

By the fact that Taiwan still needs the US for protection establishes that they can not stand on their own.
They are a part of China, just a renage province.

If they could stand politically, economically and militarily own their own then it would be a different story.

Your analogy would only be valid if the South won the civil war.

 

[DAGTA]

I see a lot of people throwing the word 'democracy' around.
Do you realize the United States is not a democracy, but rather a republic? Do you know the differences? It may be fair to call the U.S. a democratic republic but we are not a democracy.

As for China, the U.S. is very unlikely to go to war without China unless absolutely necessary. China has become much more powerful and a war with China would not be an Iraq or Afghanistan situation. WMD would likely be used by both sides and the death toll would escalate very fast. The economic repercussions around the world would be very extensive.

 

[cchen]

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
My analogy still holds with respect to the US Civil war.

A different political viewpoint wa established.
In the US case, the government felt strong enough to retain the integrity of the country and had the strength/resources to do so. Although the sucessionists had support of an outside country, the might of the North was able to succeed.

In the China situation, the Nationalists lost the civil war and ran. The US was able to protect the losers from the bad Reds. The Reds had other issues on there plate afterwards. Korea for one. After Korea, China has to worry about the USSR and start trying to pull itself into the 20th century. WWII and the civil war plus the purges werre crippling the country.

As I also stated, had the roles been reversed, the US would not have protected Tawain if the Reds had run there to setup a communist government. They would have encourage the Nationalists to get the island back on political control.

By the fact that Taiwan still needs the US for protection establishes that they can not stand on their own.
They are a part of China, just a renage province.

If they could stand politically, economically and militarily own their own then it would be a different story.

That's completely ridiculous. Because country cannot stand on their own, they can't be accepted as a country? There are dozens of countries around the world that "can not stand on their own." Politically, they stand on their own. Economically they are one of the world's powerhouses, particularly in semiconductors.

 

[cchen]

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
You youngsters are letting your emotions overrule the actual history of events.

You really do not understand how the current situations are in China and Taiwan. Try visiting.

 

[geecee]

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
My analogy still holds with respect to the US Civil war.

A different political viewpoint wa established.
In the US case, the government felt strong enough to retain the integrity of the country and had the strength/resources to do so. Although the sucessionists had support of an outside country, the might of the North was able to succeed.

In the China situation, the Nationalists lost the civil war and ran. The US was able to protect the losers from the bad Reds. The Reds had other issues on there plate afterwards. Korea for one. After Korea, China has to worry about the USSR and start trying to pull itself into the 20th century. WWII and the civil war plus the purges werre crippling the country.

As I also stated, had the roles been reversed, the US would not have protected Tawain if the Reds had run there to setup a communist government. They would have encourage the Nationalists to get the island back on political control.

By the fact that Taiwan still needs the US for protection establishes that they can not stand on their own.
They are a part of China, just a renage province.

If they could stand politically, economically and militarily own their own then it would be a different story.

I respectfully disagree. Without US support, South Korea would probably not exist today, and that is what I liken Taiwan to. (I don't believe that anyone would call S. Korea a renegade province.) As for your determinants of sovereignty for a nation, there are plenty of countries that have no ability to stand on their own militarily in the face of a superior aggressor. Isn't that why the UN, NATO and other treaty alliances exist? Taiwan can easily meet the other two criteria as it has a working government and is one of the economic powerhouses of SE Asia (or even all Asia, for that matter). But the point that seems to escape everyone involved in this conflict is that neither country requires the other for any real purpose. China can exist perfectly well and become a world power with or without Taiwan in the fold. And obviously, Taiwan is a very successful nation that needs no help from the mainland. SO WHY IS THIS ISSUE SUCH A BIG DEAL for either side? As I've said before, [cynicism] Chinese (Taiwanese) just need excuses to kill each other. [/cynicism]

 

[cchen]

Originally posted by: geecee

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
My analogy still holds with respect to the US Civil war.

A different political viewpoint wa established.
In the US case, the government felt strong enough to retain the integrity of the country and had the strength/resources to do so. Although the sucessionists had support of an outside country, the might of the North was able to succeed.

In the China situation, the Nationalists lost the civil war and ran. The US was able to protect the losers from the bad Reds. The Reds had other issues on there plate afterwards. Korea for one. After Korea, China has to worry about the USSR and start trying to pull itself into the 20th century. WWII and the civil war plus the purges werre crippling the country.

As I also stated, had the roles been reversed, the US would not have protected Tawain if the Reds had run there to setup a communist government. They would have encourage the Nationalists to get the island back on political control.

By the fact that Taiwan still needs the US for protection establishes that they can not stand on their own.
They are a part of China, just a renage province.

If they could stand politically, economically and militarily own their own then it would be a different story.

I respectfully disagree. Without US support, South Korea would probably not exist today, and that is what I liken Taiwan to. (I don't believe that anyone would call S. Korea a renegade province.) As for your determinants of sovereignty for a nation, there are plenty of countries that have no ability to stand on their own militarily in the face of a superior aggressor. Isn't that why the UN, NATO and other treaty alliances exist? Taiwan can easily meet the other two criteria as it has a working government and is one of the economic powerhouses of SE Asia (or even all Asia, for that matter). But the point that seems to escape everyone involved in this conflict is that neither country requires the other for any real purpose. China can exist perfectly well and become a world power with or without Taiwan in the fold. And obviously, Taiwan is a very successful nation that needs no help from the mainland. SO WHY IS THIS ISSUE SUCH A BIG DEAL for either side? As I've said before, [cynicism] Chinese (Taiwanese) just need excuses to kill each other. [/cynicism]

Actually, for China, I think it is an act of power. If say Taiwan declares independence, that paves the way for HK to declare independence as well.

 

[geecee]

Originally posted by: cchen
Actually, for China, I think it is an act of power. If say Taiwan declares independence, that paves the way for HK to declare independence as well.

Agreed. It most certainly is. Which is why I think all of this posturing is pointless. On the flip side, other than diplomatic recognition and perhaps pride, I'm not sure what declaring independence does for Taiwan (especially when they so obviously already are)? :frown:

 

[rchiu]

Originally posted by: geecee

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
As previously stated

Taiwan was part of China until the end of WWII. Then it set up a seperate political government (in exile).
"Red" China at the time was to weak and trying to recover from the destruction caused by Japan to stop the opposition.

Chiang Kai-shek was fighting Reds when China was invaded by Japan. Rather than taking on the Japanese, he weakened both China forces by continuing to chase the Communists. IT was the REds that forced a united China against the Japanese. After the surrender of Japan he restarted the internal conflict, the Reds gained the upper hand and the Nationalists bailed out of China in 49 and ran to the island of Formosa .
Mao Zedong had to consolidate he leadership and try to reshape the country. Chiang was just a thorn in his side at the time. No military power or threat.

The US realized that Chiang was to weak to re-occupy the mianland; they provide assistance to protect the isalnd from the Reds when the Reds grew strong enough to take control of the island. Still is happening today.

These circumstances are what change your original premise, which is that Taiwan tried to "secede" from the Union so to speak, thus giving "Red" China the right to force them back in. The fact that both governments claimed sovereignty over the entire nation is what makes it different. This previously wasn't an issue of a province/state wanting independence. Only recently has this become the case. You'll probably find that a small majority (or large minority) of the island (those aforementioned Han Chinese) still considers themselves "Chinese" and not "Taiwanese". However, the numbers of descendants of the pre-'49 Taiwanese and the younger generations of "49-ers" who have only known living on the island are increasing steadily, and thus you have the "independence" movement taking shape in the last few decades. It still cannot, however, simply be viewed as a breakaway province.

EDIT: As an analogy, the situation more resembles North/South Korea, if North Korea were about 10X larger.

You are wrong. Taiwan was never part of PRC since the inception of PRC in 1949. If Taiwan was never part of PRC, how can it be a "breakaway" province?

In reality, Taiwan is an independent country. Taiwan has it's own government, economy and military. Taiwanese people have Taiwanese citizenship and live in a well-defined Taiwanese territory.

But it doesn't make a difference if there is a good justification or not when a country wants to invade another. We all see that power and tanks talk, and the victors write the history. As long as Taiwan remains an important issue for Chinese politicians, they won't take a soft stance over this. As long as China stays the most populous nation in the world with largest army, nations are gonna be take favorable position with China.

Taiwanese gotta be smart and play politics correctly to stay prosperous and free. As long as Taiwan doesn't declare outright independence or appear to be working on getting recognition, China won't do much to change the current situation. After all, you can say whatever you want about Chinese military, but if they do invade Taiwan, they risk taking high casualty in the war, destroying a prosperous Taiwanese economy, and slowing their own economy and foreign investment.