China jeopardising peace in island row: Japan

[JEDIYoda]

What concerns me is this -- "For Tokyo, the Japan-US security alliance is the fallback," he said, referring to the security pact under which the United States must come to Japan's aid if it is attacked.

"The case will be a crucial test to see if the alliance can function."


http://news.yahoo.com/china-behaviour-jeopardising-peacetime-japan-023745844.html

Tokyo (AFP) - Beijing is jeopardising peace in a row with Tokyo over disputed islands, Japan's defence minister said Tuesday, days after China warned any bid to shoot down its drones would constitute "an act of war".

Itsunori Onodera's comments are likely to further heighten fears that the two countries could be sliding towards conflict over the outcrops in the East China Sea and come as China showed off its fleet of nuclear-powered submarines and as Japan readies for war games.

"I believe the intrusions by China in the territorial waters around the Senkaku islands fall in the 'grey zone' (between) peacetime and an emergency situation," Onodera told reporters in Tokyo.

The two sides have been at loggerheads over the island chain, which China claims and calls the Diaoyus, since Tokyo bought three of them from their private Japanese owner in September 2012.

But the comments from Onodera following those from China's defence ministry at the weekend, appear to have taken the verbal fisticuffs to a new level.

On Monday, China's coastguard sent four vessels into the waters around the islands, where they stayed for two hours, shadowed by their Japanese counterparts.

That came after three consecutive days in which Tokyo scrambled jets to meet Chinese aircraft as they traversed a strait leading to the Pacific. They did not enter Japanese airspace.

"They were two early-warning aircraft and two bombers," Onodera told reporters on Tuesday.

"It was unusual that so many aircraft flew between the Okinawan main island and Miyako island. We consider that it is also very unusual that it occurred for three days in a row.

"We understand that it is one of the trends showing that China is now vigorously expanding its areas of activities, including into the open ocean."

There is more to this article....

http://news.yahoo.com/china-behaviour-jeopardising-peacetime-japan-023745844.html

 

[TerryMathews]

What concerns me is this -- "For Tokyo, the Japan-US security alliance is the fallback," he said, referring to the security pact under which the United States must come to Japan's aid if it is attacked.

"The case will be a crucial test to see if the alliance can function."


http://news.yahoo.com/china-behaviour-jeopardising-peacetime-japan-023745844.html

Tokyo (AFP) - Beijing is jeopardising peace in a row with Tokyo over disputed islands, Japan's defence minister said Tuesday, days after China warned any bid to shoot down its drones would constitute "an act of war".

Itsunori Onodera's comments are likely to further heighten fears that the two countries could be sliding towards conflict over the outcrops in the East China Sea and come as China showed off its fleet of nuclear-powered submarines and as Japan readies for war games.

"I believe the intrusions by China in the territorial waters around the Senkaku islands fall in the 'grey zone' (between) peacetime and an emergency situation," Onodera told reporters in Tokyo.

The two sides have been at loggerheads over the island chain, which China claims and calls the Diaoyus, since Tokyo bought three of them from their private Japanese owner in September 2012.

But the comments from Onodera following those from China's defence ministry at the weekend, appear to have taken the verbal fisticuffs to a new level.

On Monday, China's coastguard sent four vessels into the waters around the islands, where they stayed for two hours, shadowed by their Japanese counterparts.

That came after three consecutive days in which Tokyo scrambled jets to meet Chinese aircraft as they traversed a strait leading to the Pacific. They did not enter Japanese airspace.

"They were two early-warning aircraft and two bombers," Onodera told reporters on Tuesday.

"It was unusual that so many aircraft flew between the Okinawan main island and Miyako island. We consider that it is also very unusual that it occurred for three days in a row.

"We understand that it is one of the trends showing that China is now vigorously expanding its areas of activities, including into the open ocean."

There is more to this article....

http://news.yahoo.com/china-behaviour-jeopardising-peacetime-japan-023745844.html

A quick review of Wikipedia seems to indicate Japan has the most legitimate claim (1895)

 

[Atreus21]

The sooner the Chinese government collapses, the better.

 

[Texashiker]

The sooner the Chinese government collapses, the better.

luls, not gonna happen.

We plan days, weeks and "maybe" months in advance.

China plans decades in advance.

While we close factory after factory and steel mill after steel mill, china builds factory after factory and mill after mill.

 

[Genx87]

luls, not gonna happen.

We plan days, weeks and "maybe" months in advance.

China plans decades in advance.

While we close factory after factory and steel mill after steel mill, china builds factory after factory and mill after mill.

Thier real estate bubble makes ours look like childs play. China is set to implode and take the world economy with it.

 

[Texashiker]

Thier real estate bubble makes ours look like childs play.

You mean all the ghost cities china is building?

 

[Genx87]

You mean all the ghost cities china is building?

Bingo

 

[Texashiker]

Bingo

My speculation on why china is building ghost cities:

1 - for the jobs, to keep people working.

2 - in time of war to give people a place to go.

 

[Genx87]

I think you are abosultely correct on #1. But that means tens of millions of housing units sitting vacant, largely owned by the new middle class in China. At some point the bubble will burst. Our housing market collapse will look tiny when this one goes.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Thier real estate bubble makes ours look like childs play. China is set to implode and take the world economy with it.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/junhli/...hinese-property-market-deflating-bubble-fear/

 

[Atreus21]

Thier real estate bubble makes ours look like childs play. China is set to implode and take the world economy with it.

Link? First I've heard of a chinese real estate bubble. I was thinking their principle crisis was demographic.

 

[shady28]

Link? First I've heard of a chinese real estate bubble. I was thinking their principle crisis was demographic.

A lot talk about this, but China doesn't have a bubble like western minds see them. It is common to pay cash for real estate in China.

Example : The total mortgage debt in China is 15% of GDP vs 85% in the USA.

 

[Darwin333]

Thier real estate bubble makes ours look like childs play. China is set to implode and take the world economy with it.

I dunno. The Chinese have always been very very long term planners. You are looking at their short term problems and assuming its not a part of some long term plan. I damn sure wouldn't put money on it either way...

 

[lozina]

If worst comes to worst and America's alliance is put to the test I assume the Obama administration will reluctantly put up some threat of force like with Syria while China actively occupies the islands and engages in limited air/naval battles with Japan. Then Putin the peacemaker steps in and mediates a negotiation which ends hostilities and Japan concedes the islands to China in an appeasement type of agreement.

That's just my somewhat pessimistic forecast

 

[K1052]

I dunno. The Chinese have always been very very long term planners. You are looking at their short term problems and assuming its not a part of some long term plan. I damn sure wouldn't put money on it either way...

This was the same stuff people were saying about the Japanese in the 80s.

In the end people are just people. There isn't one overarching plan that the entire populace is adhering to spanning centuries.

 

[K1052]

If worst comes to worst and America's alliance is put to the test I assume the Obama administration will reluctantly put up some threat of force like with Syria while China actively occupies the islands and engages in limited air/naval battles with Japan. Then Putin the peacemaker steps in and mediates a negotiation which ends hostilities and Japan concedes the islands to China in an appeasement type of agreement.

That's just my somewhat pessimistic forecast

So Obama is going to effectively void a 50 year old treaty with one of our closest military/economic allies without the consent of congress in order to avoid defending an area as Japanese territory that he recently re-affirmed would be defended in the face of aggression.

I'm not too confident in your forecast and fail to see any useful comparison with Syria whatsoever.

 

[moonbogg]

Both sides have too much to lose in a war. Nothing will come of this. The age of conflict is passing.

 

[lozina]

So Obama is going to effectively void a 50 year old treaty with one of our closest military/economic allies without the consent of congress in order to avoid defending an area as Japanese territory that he recently re-affirmed would be defended in the face of aggression.

I'm not too confident in your forecast and fail to see any useful comparison with Syria whatsoever.

Fair enough. So you believe the US will launch an all out war on China should military action occur between China and Japan?

I just dont see that happening.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Both sides have too much to lose in a war. Nothing will come of this. The age of conflict is passing.

China feels that they are right and to back down from a confrontation will be a loss of face. I think (opinion only) that Japan has a better equipped self defense force that can effectively challenge what China sends up to claim those islands. Minor skirmish and then nothing further.

 

[Texashiker]

But that means tens of millions of housing units sitting vacant, largely owned by the new middle class in China. At some point the bubble will burst.

China has the factories, and they have the jobs to support a middle class for decades, maybe even for generations.

It is not even close to compare the US housing bubble to china. Our factories and our middle class jobs are gone.

China is looking at an economic boom that can last for decades, but they have to have the natural resources to fuel that boom. It just so happens the islands in the opening post are sitting on a vast oil reserve.

 

[K1052]

Fair enough. So you believe the US will launch an all out war on China should military action occur between China and Japan?

I just dont see that happening.

In the unlikely event there were to be military action between China and Japan the US would certainly respond with appropriate force to protect it's ally and uphold treaty obligations. China knows this which is why it's extremely unlikely they would ever push it that far.

Why people think that President Death From Above would bow and scrape to the hugely inferior Chinese navy in such a clear cut case is beyond me.

 

[BoomerD]

China has the factories, and they have the jobs to support a middle class for decades, maybe even for generations.

It is not even close to compare the US housing bubble to china. Our factories and our middle class jobs are gone.

China is looking at an economic boom that can last for decades, but they have to have the natural resources to fuel that boom. It just so happens the islands in the opening post are sitting on a vast oil reserve.

If it comes to a war, who will buy the Chinese-made goods? (especially if the US boycotts Chinese imports)

I already buy as little "Made in China" as possible.

 

[Tormac]

The sooner the Chinese government collapses, the better.

I do not think that this drum beating is really something that the current Chinese government wants either, but it is playing up to its home constituents.

The Chinese population is still angry and resentful over WW2, and the Japanese tendency to try to sweep under the rug its own atrocities.

It is likely that a more democratic Chinese government would be more openly belligerent towards Japan. It is not really in the current government's interest to have open hostilities to break out between themselves and Japan, but popular anti-Japanese sentiment is strong enough in China that the government in China can not appear to be weak in the face of Japan to their own people.

The last thing that China wants is war with Japan and the US, as we are their major trading partner.

Both sides need to look strong enough to the home crowd. But as long as neither side panics I doubt it will amount to anything.