China Exceeds US Exports of Technology for first time

Future Shock

Senior member
Aug 28, 2005
968
0
0
It's finally happened, the US has finally lost the high tech export race to China. Worse yet, is that the Chinese are now making equipment that the US relies upon for defense needs, and that their internal developments have lead them to build Pentium II class CPUs in a leading University...meaning that they are catching up quickly indeed in the making and DESIGN of advanced semiconductors...

And oh yeah, they just happened to build an 11Tflop supercomputer this year, putting them up strongly with the big boys. You know, the same supercomputers that can be used to decrypt stuff, simulate nuclear weapons, research DNA, and generally get a lot of advanced work done? Seems our efforts to stop the export of this stuff is really kind of lame when the US corporations just start building all of their stuff there...

Tear another page off your economic doomsday calandars boys...

Future Shock
 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,717
2
0
Outsourcing the manufacture of high tech components just makes sense...I didn't see you all complain when Japan and Taiwan were making all of your electrical components. The high export of these goods just goes to show that the US is still a large consumer and user of these devices.

The progression of other countries in the fields of high tech and research is nothing to fear. The goal is not to keep the massive amounts of people in poor nations in china down because you have too much pride with being the sole technology powerhouse.

Come back when you see US technology progression in decline...:thumbsdown:
 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,717
2
0
Originally posted by: Engineer
I don't give a goddamned fvck about people in those other countries. We'll be consumers until the money and credit runs out! I hope you all are the first on the soup lines while looking for your new fangled service job!
Bolded is what is wrong with this world. Somehow people get this notion that because they were the lucky winner of a birth in a privileged nation, they are entitled to all the world's wealth through whatever means necessary.

Why not apply the same logic domestically Engineer?...Why allow the poor to succeed, they were not the ones born with wealth...pfff, 'fvck em'.

I'm sorry people like you exist. Blind with nationalistic hate.
 

Generator

Senior member
Mar 4, 2005
793
0
0
Are Chinese exports wholly chinese exports? Besides the chinese laborers and the communists getting their cuts, thats still American money. But the question has to be asked why do American companies bother here anymore? Why not be come chinese companies? I wonder what the tax rates the commies put on American corporations.
 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
3
0
As much as some want to share the wealth .. why bother with wealth in the first place.. just be socialists or communists
 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,717
2
0
Somebody's throwing a little hissy fit...:eek:

The thing I wonder about you guys is what it will take to prove to you that overseas trade relationships are not in the least destroying the American way of life as you so claim.

10, 25, 50 years of growth and prosperity? rising standard of living in China and US? When will it sink in that America can compete and thrive with the rest of the world...not trying to repel it.

From what i've read, economists say the more the US resists the Chinese and Indian economies, the worse off you will be. Canada has built good relationships with China and has embraced their presence as an equal and will have significant positives for our nation on the long term. This Thread

The Price Of Protectionism
by David Wolf | On Engaging China
More interaction with China makes sense for reasons that go beyond the benefits of unfettered trade.
2005-11-07

There are, broadly speaking, three ways firms and policy-makers can react to the emergence of China and other rapidly developing economies in Asia--ignore it, shut it out, or engage it. No points for guessing which strategy is likely to work out best.

Ignoring China's emergence is likely to work about as well as it generally does to shut one's eyes and pretend something potentially unpleasant isn't there.

Shutting it out, as many strident voices in the U.S. government in particular have threatened, is not likely to work much better. History has shown time and again that protectionism is at best a short-term fix, coming at great longer-term economic cost. As Fed chairman Greenspan warned the Congress earlier this year at hearings on China, "any significant elevation of tariffs that substantially reduces our overall imports, by keeping out competitively priced goods, would materially lower our standard of living. A return to protectionism would threaten the continuation of much of the extraordinary growth in living standards worldwide, but especially in the United States, that is due importantly to the post-World War II opening of global markets. Such an initiative would send the adverse message to our trading partners that the United States, while accepting the benefits of broadened world trade, is not willing to absorb the structural adjustments that are often necessary."

Superficially, the emergence of China has put at least as much economic pressure on Canada as on the United States to put up that kind of shield. Canada's trade deficit with China, as a share of our economy, is as big as the States' (1.4% of GDP in 2004). And while the Americans' complaint about the Chinese currency is that it hasn't risen by as much as it "should" against the U.S. dollar, the renminbi has actually depreciated substantially against the Canadian dollar (by 25% since the beginning of 2002), compromising Canada's relative competitive position that much further. Yet Canada appears to have been a lot more successful in resisting the protectionist instinct. The policy debate in Canada has been far more about how to increase trade with China than how to reduce it, sending an important signal to the private sector to get on with the business of adapting to the changing competitive environment--a signal that companies like those featured in this issue are evidently getting loud and clear.

Engaging China makes sense beyond the usual economic arguments in support of unfettered trade. A former colleague of mine has a favourite saying: "With every pair of hands comes a mouth." China's impact right now may be largely in supplying us with cheap manufactured goods, but the country's growing income earned from that production will ultimately translate into demand for goods and services more broadly; our opportunity to satisfy that growing demand will doubtless depend importantly (as Greenspan might say) on how we treat the Chinese at this sensitive stage of their economic development.

And embracing China as a market makes sense for Canada from a diversification perspective as well. With the United States buying 82% of Canada's exports, it is reasonable to say that most of our trade eggs sit in the American basket. That basket has been a fruitful one, to be sure, given the U.S. economy's generally strong and steady growth over the past 15 years. But that growth has increasingly reflected America's spending beyond its means in recent years, with the U.S. current account deficit having risen sevenfold over the past decade to a record $789-billion annual rate through the first half of this year. Most economists agree that U.S. domestic demand will have to slow in the years ahead, certainly relative to the rest of the world.

Now, the U.S. market will probably always be the critical one for Canadian trade, for reasons of geography if nothing else. But that makes it doubly important to reduce our near-exclusive reliance on that market. That need not come via reducing trade with the United States--or playing the dangerous game of threatening to--but rather should be a natural function of Canadians' identifying and vigorously pursuing export opportunities to China and other economies with bright longer-term growth prospects. Put simply, the more we engage these countries' economic development, the more we will be promoting our own.
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,489
0
0
So from all the doomers and gloomers, what do you propose we *DO* about this?

Become less competitive against other world corporations? Become more socialist? Or just put up trade barriers?

For those workers who seem to think that a high school degree and sweat on the back means lifetime employment, a pension and free health care - <insert middle finger icon> here. You are reaping what you've sown. This isn't a one sided equation.

For the record, my company doesn't outsource. Yet. But if it gets tied down by unproductive unions and workers, it will.
 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
0
0
A physically healthy, well-educated population is the only way America will continue to be competitive in a global economy.

Protectionism will NOT work. It never works. It's purely an illusion.

Although it's not hi-tech, we should start by ending most farm subsidies.
 

Future Shock

Senior member
Aug 28, 2005
968
0
0
Originally posted by: alchemize
So from all the doomers and gloomers, what do you propose we *DO* about this?

Become less competitive against other world corporations? Become more socialist? Or just put up trade barriers?

For those workers who seem to think that a high school degree and sweat on the back means lifetime employment, a pension and free health care - <insert middle finger icon> here. You are reaping what you've sown. This isn't a one sided equation.

For the record, my company doesn't outsource. Yet. But if it gets tied down by unproductive unions and workers, it will.

I wasn't aware the supercomputer construction and CPU manufacturing and design were were done either by high school degreed people, or "unproductive unions and workers". That's why this article is so appaulling - these are not textile jobs, these are about as high tech as it gets, including the complete design and intellectual property. Or do you have some other area of exportable expertise that Americans can do so well that we can actually export it competitively? Advanced genentics from stem cell research, perhaps? Oh, wait...the Republicans say we can't do that...

And the CHINESE employees have free basic health care from their government - why is that, and yet you decry it for American workers??? Are they not good enough in your books? <insert middle finger icon>

Future Shock
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,489
0
0
Originally posted by: Future Shock
Originally posted by: alchemize
So from all the doomers and gloomers, what do you propose we *DO* about this?

Become less competitive against other world corporations? Become more socialist? Or just put up trade barriers?

For those workers who seem to think that a high school degree and sweat on the back means lifetime employment, a pension and free health care - <insert middle finger icon> here. You are reaping what you've sown. This isn't a one sided equation.

For the record, my company doesn't outsource. Yet. But if it gets tied down by unproductive unions and workers, it will.

I wasn't aware the supercomputer construction and CPU manufacturing and design were were done either by high school degreed people, or "unproductive unions and workers". That's why this article is so appaulling - these are not textile jobs, these are about as high tech as it gets, including the complete design and intellectual property. Or do you have some other area of exportable expertise that Americans can do so well that we can actually export it competitively? Advanced genentics from stem cell research, perhaps? Oh, wait...the Republicans say we can't do that...

And the CHINESE employees have free basic health care from their government - why is that, and yet you decry it for American workers??? Are they not good enough in your books? <insert middle finger icon>

Future Shock

I was referring to the "front" of the outsourcing wave, manufacturing. And these kinds of globalizations have been going on forever. Remember when Japanese cars sucked? I do.

Welcome to the year 2005 (06 around the corner). It's a new world, better find a way to compete it in.

As far as free healthcare goes, that's not really relevant to this topic is it? Or are you advocating socialism/communism?
 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
0
0
Originally posted by: Future Shock
Originally posted by: alchemize
So from all the doomers and gloomers, what do you propose we *DO* about this?

Become less competitive against other world corporations? Become more socialist? Or just put up trade barriers?

For those workers who seem to think that a high school degree and sweat on the back means lifetime employment, a pension and free health care - <insert middle finger icon> here. You are reaping what you've sown. This isn't a one sided equation.

For the record, my company doesn't outsource. Yet. But if it gets tied down by unproductive unions and workers, it will.

I wasn't aware the supercomputer construction and CPU manufacturing and design were were done either by high school degreed people, or "unproductive unions and workers". That's why this article is so appaulling - these are not textile jobs, these are about as high tech as it gets, including the complete design and intellectual property. Or do you have some other area of exportable expertise that Americans can do so well that we can actually export it competitively? Advanced genentics from stem cell research, perhaps? Oh, wait...the Republicans say we can't do that...

And the CHINESE employees have free basic health care from their government - why is that, and yet you decry it for American workers??? Are they not good enough in your books? <insert middle finger icon>

Future Shock

I disagree with alchemize's assessment that healthcare isn't an issue. But you are way off when it comes to China. The Communist have largely abandoned public healthcare. One reason why the Chinese save so much money is b/c almost everything comes out of their pocket or you go without. China probably has the worst healthcare system this side of North Korea.
 

Future Shock

Senior member
Aug 28, 2005
968
0
0
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: Future Shock
Originally posted by: alchemize
So from all the doomers and gloomers, what do you propose we *DO* about this?

Become less competitive against other world corporations? Become more socialist? Or just put up trade barriers?

For those workers who seem to think that a high school degree and sweat on the back means lifetime employment, a pension and free health care - <insert middle finger icon> here. You are reaping what you've sown. This isn't a one sided equation.

For the record, my company doesn't outsource. Yet. But if it gets tied down by unproductive unions and workers, it will.

I wasn't aware the supercomputer construction and CPU manufacturing and design were were done either by high school degreed people, or "unproductive unions and workers". That's why this article is so appaulling - these are not textile jobs, these are about as high tech as it gets, including the complete design and intellectual property. Or do you have some other area of exportable expertise that Americans can do so well that we can actually export it competitively? Advanced genentics from stem cell research, perhaps? Oh, wait...the Republicans say we can't do that...

And the CHINESE employees have free basic health care from their government - why is that, and yet you decry it for American workers??? Are they not good enough in your books? <insert middle finger icon>

Future Shock

I was referring to the "front" of the outsourcing wave, manufacturing. And these kinds of globalizations have been going on forever. Remember when Japanese cars sucked? I do.

Welcome to the year 2005 (06 around the corner). It's a new world, better find a way to compete it in.

As far as free healthcare goes, that's not really relevant to this topic is it? Or are you advocating socialism/communism?

How the hell can you claim healthcare isn't relavant to outsourcing???? Do you not read the financial reports of US companies? One of their single biggest expenses is healthcare for their workers! One of the single biggest uses of worker's pay is to fund their own healthcare!

This is an EMBEDDED cost of production for US companies, and a wage requirement for US workers (which drives up the wages they can afford to live on). In a country with centralized healthcare, these expenses do NOT hit the corporate bottom line in the same manner. You can try and argue that they must have higher taxes to the government as a result, but the simple fact is that centralized healthcare DOES cost a lot less to provide (the quality may be another matter, but we are talking economics here).

Until US healthcare expenses can be brought down via a cenralized system, US workers will always be forced to operate at an competitive disadvantage.

But as for competing - answer me this: how do you compete with countries that have basic education systems that are as good if not better than the US'es, rapidly maturing university level institutions, social stability, rapidly improving infrastructure, a much lower cost of living, and absolutley NO respect for Intellectual Property ownership? Right now the only thing we have a clear advantage in is business experience, and they will close that in less than a decade or two. So your answer long-term is?

Future Shock
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,489
0
0
Originally posted by: Future Shock
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: Future Shock
Originally posted by: alchemize
So from all the doomers and gloomers, what do you propose we *DO* about this?

Become less competitive against other world corporations? Become more socialist? Or just put up trade barriers?

For those workers who seem to think that a high school degree and sweat on the back means lifetime employment, a pension and free health care - <insert middle finger icon> here. You are reaping what you've sown. This isn't a one sided equation.

For the record, my company doesn't outsource. Yet. But if it gets tied down by unproductive unions and workers, it will.

I wasn't aware the supercomputer construction and CPU manufacturing and design were were done either by high school degreed people, or "unproductive unions and workers". That's why this article is so appaulling - these are not textile jobs, these are about as high tech as it gets, including the complete design and intellectual property. Or do you have some other area of exportable expertise that Americans can do so well that we can actually export it competitively? Advanced genentics from stem cell research, perhaps? Oh, wait...the Republicans say we can't do that...

And the CHINESE employees have free basic health care from their government - why is that, and yet you decry it for American workers??? Are they not good enough in your books? <insert middle finger icon>

Future Shock

I was referring to the "front" of the outsourcing wave, manufacturing. And these kinds of globalizations have been going on forever. Remember when Japanese cars sucked? I do.

Welcome to the year 2005 (06 around the corner). It's a new world, better find a way to compete it in.

As far as free healthcare goes, that's not really relevant to this topic is it? Or are you advocating socialism/communism?

How the hell can you claim healthcare isn't relavant to outsourcing???? Do you not read the financial reports of US companies? One of their single biggest expenses is healthcare for their workers! One of the single biggest uses of worker's pay is to fund their own healthcare!

This is an EMBEDDED cost of production for US companies, and a wage requirement for US workers (which drives up the wages they can afford to live on). In a country with centralized healthcare, these expenses do NOT hit the corporate bottom line in the same manner. You can try and argue that they must have higher taxes to the government as a result, but the simple fact is that centralized healthcare DOES cost a lot less to provide (the quality may be another matter, but we are talking economics here).

Until US healthcare expenses can be brought down via a cenralized system, US workers will always be forced to operate at an competitive disadvantage.

But as for competing - answer me this: how do you compete with countries that have basic education systems that are as good if not better than the US'es, rapidly maturing university level institutions, social stability, rapidly improving infrastructure, a much lower cost of living, and absolutley NO respect for Intellectual Property ownership? Right now the only thing we have a clear advantage in is business experience, and they will close that in less than a decade or two. So your answer long-term is?

Future Shock

There's no difference if the costs are paid via a payor system like ours or a socialist system that simply taxes the corps and people at the macro level.

We'll compete like we always have. Labor costs will rise in China and India, which will stabilize some things. The "retiring of america" will also stabilize our labor costs some also (less labor will demand higher wages).

They'll also never get a "seat at the table" if they don't start respecting IP.
 

Future Shock

Senior member
Aug 28, 2005
968
0
0
Originally posted by: alchemize

There's no difference if the costs are paid via a payor system like ours or a socialist system that simply taxes the corps and people at the macro level.

Absolutley, 100% non-factual. Let me count the ways (abridged, edited version):
  1. 1) Single-payor systems use their nationwide buying power to get pharmacuiticals at a small fraction of the cost that the US pays privately - the pharma companies are so scared of this that that type of negotiation was explicitly BANNED in the US for Medicare as part of Bush's prescription drug plan.

  1. 2) Other costs are similarly controlled better by a single-payor system - a larger buyer manages to drive better discounts, a la Wal-Mart with it's suppliers. This includes supplies, linen services, maintanance, etc.

  1. 3) Doctor's salaries are capped, with a typical NHS doctor in England making less than £75,000 per annum on the NHS (partners that own their own practices make a bit more, but still a fraction of what a US doctor makes. In China doctors earn much, much less...).

  1. 4) In addition, a huge percentage of the US cost of healthcare is simply in claims processing and administration. This is MANY times the costs encountered in a single-payor system- which is a structural cost that cannot be avoided by "market efficiencies".

For these reasons, a multi-payor system cannot, structurally, ever be as cheap as a single payor system. It may provide better care (and on the upper end it definately does!), but it can never be cheaper, or even nearly as cheap.

Originally posted by: alchemize
We'll compete like we always have.
Let's look at that...how has the US competed historically?
  1. 1) By having the most efficient agricultural base on which to build a society - we began industrailized farming, and we do it better. But here again, China and India are making vast inroads, and China is rapidly deploying tractors, reapers, etc. at a very quick rate. They are also right next door to Russia, which still has lots of agricultural products to export...

  1. 2) By having a huge natural resource bases, esp. coal, fresh water, timber, metals, petroleum, etc. China has a huge country with a great deal of natural resources, but is forced to aquire many from abroad. Their recent purchases of the Khazikstahn national oil company, and the attempt to buy Conoco Oil shows that they are willing to spend vast sums to secure those resources, and are rich enough to do so, even winning a bidding war with the US.

  1. 3) By having a great university system, producing leading graduates who generate massive IP advantages for US companies. But again, China has universities that are rapidly reaching parity in imporant areas, esp high tech and business, and they have an advantage; they STILL don't recognize Intellectual Property laws...so they are starting nearly dead even in technical base, and can graduate many more upper-degreed researchers, sending their best to US schools, and their second best to native schools.

None of these trends seem advantageous for the US to compete against...


Originally posted by: alchemize
Labor costs will rise in China and India, which will stabilize some things. The "retiring of america" will also stabilize our labor costs some also (less labor will demand higher wages).
All you are saying here is that their comparative standard of living will increase via higher wages, whilst the US's will decrease due to lower wages. Isn't that tantamount to the US LOSING???

Originally posted by: alchemize
They'll also never get a "seat at the table" if they don't start respecting IP.
They already have WTO memebership, and now export more high tech than the US does. They already HAVE their damned "seat at the table", and they just ate your lunch...

Future Shock

 

Future Shock

Senior member
Aug 28, 2005
968
0
0
Originally posted by: her209
Who said a little competition was a bad thing?

Would you like to compete against three, hungry, rabid wolves every meal for your food, tooth against fang, hand against claw? I mean, it's just a little competition, right? ;)

Future Shock
 

Future Shock

Senior member
Aug 28, 2005
968
0
0
Originally posted by: ntdz
Originally posted by: her209
Who said a little competition was a bad thing?

Anti-trade socialist liberals.

And people that have taken enough econ classes to know that most of the theory behind "free trade" is originally founded on free trade between equal nations, not free trade between developing and developed nations. That there are SEVERE economic dislocations associated with the equalization of standard of living that must transpire in the developed nation should it institute free trade with a devloping nation. That as a whole, the developed nation must see it's standard of living lowered as part of that free trade.

Yeah, but why bother to quote economic thinking when you can simply schmere, eh ntdz?

FS
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: Future Shock
Originally posted by: ntdz
Originally posted by: her209
Who said a little competition was a bad thing?

Anti-trade socialist liberals.

And people that have taken enough econ classes to know that most of the theory behind "free trade" is originally founded on free trade between equal nations, not free trade between developing and developed nations. That there are SEVERE economic dislocations associated with the equalization of standard of living that must transpire in the developed nation should it institute free trade with a devloping nation. That as a whole, the developed nation must see it's standard of living lowered as part of that free trade.

Yeah, but why bother to quote economic thinking when you can simply schmere, eh ntdz?

FS



IF nations were equal, there would be no need for trade as any resourced could be produced anywhere for the same cost. Trade exists because things are not equal.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: Future Shock
Originally posted by: her209
Who said a little competition was a bad thing?

Would you like to compete against three, hungry, rabid wolves every meal for your food, tooth against fang, hand against claw? I mean, it's just a little competition, right? ;)

Future Shock



You would prefer those wolves to starve then?
 

Willoughbyva

Diamond Member
Sep 26, 2001
3,267
0
0
I dont have much business sense, but I know in my area the top paying jobs are around $10.00 an hour and those are hard to find. I am scared of China and scared for my future. All I know is I need medical coverage and I don't have it. I have lived here all my life and probably won't move. How am I supposed to compete when there are no jobs here for me to make a decent living? Plus I have health issues that maks it hard for me to hold down a normal job. I make less than $7.00 an hour part time an am lucky that I can do that.


Perry