China about to pass U.S. as world's top generator of greenhouse gases

[charrison]

Far more than previously acknowledged, the battle against global warming will be won or lost in China, even more so than in the West, new data show.

A report released last week by Beijing authorities indicated that as its economy continues to expand at a red-hot pace, China is highly likely to overtake the United States this year or in 2008 as the world's largest emitter of greenhouse gases.

...

New statistics released in Beijing on Wednesday by China's National Bureau of Statistics show that China's consumption of fossil fuels rose in 2006 by 9.3 percent, about the same rate as in previous years -- and about eight times higher than the U.S. increase of 1.2 percent.

While China's total greenhouse gas emissions were only 42 percent of the U.S. level in 2001, they had soared to an estimated 97 percent of the American level by 2006.

linkage


So does anyone still think it is good idea to leave china out of gw treaties?

 

[sandorski]

Yes. There will be future Treaties, China will be in them. What was a bad idea was the US and a few others not being in Kyoto.

 

[fornax]

Yep, very bad idea not to include "developing" economies in the treaty. China and India will be the primary oil guzzlers in the next few decades unless something radical happens (like thermonuclear synthesis). No hope for the price of oil dropping.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: sandorski
Yes. There will be future Treaties, China will be in them. What was a bad idea was the US and a few others not being in Kyoto.

And it would be economic suicide for the US to enter kyoto without china being in it as well. Can you say more manufacturing moving to china where there are almost no environmental regs. Kyoto is broken.


But as I recall the US has done better job of reducing GW emission better than some countries(canada comes to mind) that signed the treaty...

 

[Rainsford]

China might be the biggest polluter on earth, but the battle against man made global warming, or ANY kind of negative impact on the environment, isn't going to be won or lost in China. While China has made impressive gains over the last several decades, so far they have totally failed to take the lead on ANYTHING. Their military ambitions and economy are something out of the LAST century in our own country, and their form of government is even further behind. As impressive as they are as an industrial power, they are NOT a world leader in new development in any sector, least of all "green" technology. As the article noted, they can burn fossil fuels and pollute the hell out of the environment with the best of 'em, but FIXING those issues requires forward looking technology and new thinking, neither of which China has produced in abundance lately.

The environmental issues will be solved with technology, far more so than with treaties or legislation. You can really only solve a problem like the burning of fossil fuels when you have a good alternative to replace it with. And sure as hell, the West is going to be the origin of those new alternatives. Maybe China can mass produce efficient solar panels...after we're done inventing them.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: sandorski
Yes. There will be future Treaties, China will be in them. What was a bad idea was the US and a few others not being in Kyoto.

And it would be economic suicide for the US to enter kyoto without china being in it as well. Can you say more manufacturing moving to china where there are almost no environmental regs. Kyoto is broken.


But as I recall the US has done better job of reducing GW emission better than some countries(canada comes to mind) that signed the treaty...

Most of Canada's dramatic increases in CO2 output was in order to Supply Oil to the US. Not an excuse nor to lay the blame on the US, but just a fact that should be noted.

Re the US Economy: seems like US Business is migrating to China in droves, Kyoto or not. That's an old excuse that gets weaker by the day.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: sandorski
Yes. There will be future Treaties, China will be in them. What was a bad idea was the US and a few others not being in Kyoto.

And it would be economic suicide for the US to enter kyoto without china being in it as well. Can you say more manufacturing moving to china where there are almost no environmental regs. Kyoto is broken.


But as I recall the US has done better job of reducing GW emission better than some countries(canada comes to mind) that signed the treaty...

Most of Canada's dramatic increases in CO2 output was in order to Supply Oil to the US. Not an excuse nor to lay the blame on the US, but just a fact that should be noted.

Re the US Economy: seems like US Business is migrating to China in droves, Kyoto or not. That's an old excuse that gets weaker by the day.

China, low taxes, low wages, low regulations... lets make it even easier for clean nations to send their dirty work to china.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Rainsford
China might be the biggest polluter on earth, but the battle against man made global warming, or ANY kind of negative impact on the environment, isn't going to be won or lost in China. While China has made impressive gains over the last several decades, so far they have totally failed to take the lead on ANYTHING. Their military ambitions and economy are something out of the LAST century in our own country, and their form of government is even further behind. As impressive as they are as an industrial power, they are NOT a world leader in new development in any sector, least of all "green" technology. As the article noted, they can burn fossil fuels and pollute the hell out of the environment with the best of 'em, but FIXING those issues requires forward looking technology and new thinking, neither of which China has produced in abundance lately.

The environmental issues will be solved with technology, far more so than with treaties or legislation. You can really only solve a problem like the burning of fossil fuels when you have a good alternative to replace it with. And sure as hell, the West is going to be the origin of those new alternatives. Maybe China can mass produce efficient solar panels...after we're done inventing them.

I read the other day that chinese are making a large portion of CF bulbs right now as teh process is still requires the human touch to make the twisted bulb. Yes technology will solve these problems, but china cannot be ignored either. They still have about 600M to bring into the industrialized world.

 

[Zebo]

Go China!

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: sandorski
Yes. There will be future Treaties, China will be in them. What was a bad idea was the US and a few others not being in Kyoto.

And it would be economic suicide for the US to enter kyoto without china being in it as well. Can you say more manufacturing moving to china where there are almost no environmental regs. Kyoto is broken.


But as I recall the US has done better job of reducing GW emission better than some countries(canada comes to mind) that signed the treaty...

Most of Canada's dramatic increases in CO2 output was in order to Supply Oil to the US. Not an excuse nor to lay the blame on the US, but just a fact that should be noted.

Re the US Economy: seems like US Business is migrating to China in droves, Kyoto or not. That's an old excuse that gets weaker by the day.

China, low taxes, low wages, low regulations... lets make it even easier for clean nations to send their dirty work to china.

It's already happening, even without Kyoto.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: sandorski
Yes. There will be future Treaties, China will be in them. What was a bad idea was the US and a few others not being in Kyoto.

Keep the faith brotha, keep the faith!

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: sandorski
Yes. There will be future Treaties, China will be in them. What was a bad idea was the US and a few others not being in Kyoto.

And it would be economic suicide for the US to enter kyoto without china being in it as well. Can you say more manufacturing moving to china where there are almost no environmental regs. Kyoto is broken.


But as I recall the US has done better job of reducing GW emission better than some countries(canada comes to mind) that signed the treaty...

Most of Canada's dramatic increases in CO2 output was in order to Supply Oil to the US. Not an excuse nor to lay the blame on the US, but just a fact that should be noted.

Re the US Economy: seems like US Business is migrating to China in droves, Kyoto or not. That's an old excuse that gets weaker by the day.

Lots of factories move to mexico or china for cheap labor but also because the envrionmental laws are lax as hell and it is cheaper to run them.

So while the political elites pat themselves on the back for shoving more enviornment law down our throats. People are put out of work because the cost of doing business is too high and overall their laws fail because the factory moves and pollutes more.

There is a fine line between enacting eviornmental laws that are feasible and ones that simply drive away business and jobs.

Kyoto would have hastened this effect.

 

[CycloWizard]

I've been saying for years that our efforts need to be broadened to include China and India if we want to have any real impact. It's time to apply the leverage we have from our trading deficits and tell them we'll apply tariffs (or similar) until they increase environmental regulations to levels similar to what we have.

 

[imported_Shivetya]

let them buy carbon offsets


that way it will be alright. After all offsets are just as good as not polluting, right?

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: charrison
While China's total greenhouse gas emissions were only 42 percent of the U.S. level in 2001, they had soared to an estimated 97 percent of the American level by 2006.

linkage

So does anyone still think it is good idea to leave china out of gw treaties?[/quote]

So this is how you acknowldege all the U.S. manufacturing went to China. Cute

 

[zephyrprime]

What we should have done was join kyoto in the past but put in place punitive tariffs on countries that didn't to level the playing field for our manufacturers. That way, we could do the right thing without sufferring adversely for doing so. Of course, free trade zealots would never have allowed such a course of action.

 

[yllus]

Originally posted by: sandorski
Yes. There will be future Treaties, China will be in them. What was a bad idea was the US and a few others not being in Kyoto.

Hahaha. Oh man. Why am I not surprised you cling to this view?

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: charrison
While China's total greenhouse gas emissions were only 42 percent of the U.S. level in 2001, they had soared to an estimated 97 percent of the American level by 2006.

linkage

So does anyone still think it is good idea to leave china out of gw treaties?

So this is how you acknowldege all the U.S. manufacturing went to China. Cute[/quote]

You have a quote of any of us denying that? You should not yell fire without one.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: charrison
While China's total greenhouse gas emissions were only 42 percent of the U.S. level in 2001, they had soared to an estimated 97 percent of the American level by 2006.

linkage

So does anyone still think it is good idea to leave china out of gw treaties?

So this is how you acknowldege all the U.S. manufacturing went to China. Cute

You have a quote of any of us denying that? You should not yell fire without one.[/quote]

Only a few gazillion posts by your kind. :laugh:

Who needs a fire on a sinking ship? :laugh:

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: sandorski
Yes. There will be future Treaties, China will be in them. What was a bad idea was the US and a few others not being in Kyoto.

And it would be economic suicide for the US to enter kyoto without china being in it as well. Can you say more manufacturing moving to china where there are almost no environmental regs. Kyoto is broken.


But as I recall the US has done better job of reducing GW emission better than some countries(canada comes to mind) that signed the treaty...

Most of Canada's dramatic increases in CO2 output was in order to Supply Oil to the US. Not an excuse nor to lay the blame on the US, but just a fact that should be noted.

Re the US Economy: seems like US Business is migrating to China in droves, Kyoto or not. That's an old excuse that gets weaker by the day.

Lots of factories move to mexico or china for cheap labor but also because the envrionmental laws are lax as hell and it is cheaper to run them.

So while the political elites pat themselves on the back for shoving more enviornment law down our throats. People are put out of work because the cost of doing business is too high and overall their laws fail because the factory moves and pollutes more.

There is a fine line between enacting eviornmental laws that are feasible and ones that simply drive away business and jobs.

Kyoto would have hastened this effect.

Would it? It's happening at a very high pace already, could Kyoto really speed it up any more?

 

[Jhhnn]

Why is this a surprise, and what's wrong with it? The Chinese want to live the good life, too, and are working hard to earn it. Their per capita energy consumption and greenhouse gas generation is still ~1/4 that of the average American...

It seems likely that will peak at a considerably lower level than our own, too. Which is a good thing. They also have the ability to implement newer and more efficient technology as they grow, while much of our own established infrastructure is very low efficiency...

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Why is this a surprise, and what's wrong with it? The Chinese want to live the good life, too, and are working hard to earn it. Their per capita energy consumption and greenhouse gas generation is still ~1/4 that of the average American...

It seems likely that will peak at a considerably lower level than our own, too. Which is a good thing. They also have the ability to implement newer and more efficient technology as they grow, while much of our own established infrastructure is very low efficiency...

The only reason the per capita energy is sow low compared is that there are about 600M with little to no energy consumption. I think it would be fare more interesting to just compare the industrialized portion of china.

 

[alphatarget1]

they manufacture things, we buy it here. We (the West) are the root cause of the problem.

 

[ericlp]

Originally posted by: Rainsford
China might be the biggest polluter on earth, but the battle against man made global warming, or ANY kind of negative impact on the environment, isn't going to be won or lost in China. While China has made impressive gains over the last several decades, so far they have totally failed to take the lead on ANYTHING. Their military ambitions and economy are something out of the LAST century in our own country, and their form of government is even further behind. As impressive as they are as an industrial power, they are NOT a world leader in new development in any sector, least of all "green" technology. As the article noted, they can burn fossil fuels and pollute the hell out of the environment with the best of 'em, but FIXING those issues requires forward looking technology and new thinking, neither of which China has produced in abundance lately.

The environmental issues will be solved with technology, far more so than with treaties or legislation. You can really only solve a problem like the burning of fossil fuels when you have a good alternative to replace it with. And sure as hell, the West is going to be the origin of those new alternatives. Maybe China can mass produce efficient solar panels...after we're done inventing them.

Boy someone has head in sand...

China is JUST beginning... China has the biggest Hydro Powered dam in the world. the dam is predicted to produce 18,200 MW of electrical power. According to a recent Discovery Channel special on the Three Gorges Dam, it will supply enough electricity to power a city four times as large as Los Angeles.

China pop 1,313,973,713
USA Pop 298,444,215

China has about 5 people to every 1 person in the USA... By rights they should be consuming more power and we should be consuming a LOT LESS power USA = OINK!!!


Careful what you wish for....

The city of Beijing, China?s second-largest energy consumer, has announced plans to build a ?solar street? where buildings, streetlights, and other features will run entirely on energy from the sun. A second pilot project in the city?s Xuanwu Park will introduce solar power for lighting, heating, and refrigeration. Both projects reflect a larger government commitment to dramatically increase China?s use of renewable energy in the coming decades.

What is the USA doing?


China has several advantages in solar energy development. According to Xinhua Net, two-thirds of China?s land area receives more than 2,000 hours of sunlight annually, more than many other regions of similar latitude, including Europe and Japan. This gives China a potential solar energy reserve equivalent to 1,700 billion tons of coal. And China has become a world leader in PV cell production: Shangde Solar Energy Power Company, the country?s largest crystal silicon solar cell producer, recently expanded its operations and expects to boost China?s total production capacity of the technology from 200 to 320 megawatts by the end of this year.

China is also a world leader in solar thermal production and use, accounting for 55 percent of global solar heating capacity (excluding pool systems)?or 52 million square meters of collectors?by the end of 2003, reports Worldwatch Institute senior researcher Janet Sawin in Vital Signs 2005. China aims to boost its production capacity of one specific type of collector, solar heat panels, to 51 million square meters by the end of 2005, which would make it the world leader in solar heat panel production, according to an official from the National Engineering Research Center for Renewable Energy.

Several upcoming events, such as the 2008 Olympic Games in Beijing, Shanghai Expo 2010, and the 2007 World Conference on Solar Energy, will further stimulate China?s solar energy industry. According to China Daily, solar power and terrestrial heat will be used at various Olympic venues; for example, 2-3 megawatt solar generators will power the sports facilities. The Shanghai city government, meanwhile, has drafted a three-year plan to boost municipal use of solar energy by 2007, including setting up several power generators with a combined capacity of 5,000 kilowatts, undertaking 30 projects that combine urban construction with solar energy, and installing solar panels at the factories of 20-30 heavy industries. A proposal has also been approved to install thousands of rooftop solar panels on commercial and residential buildings and educational institutions, according to Shanghai Daily.

With these and other initiatives, China is playing an important role in providing global solar energy markets with the policy support and legal protection they need. Worldwatch Institute statistics show that world PV cell production reached an estimated 1,200 megawatts in 2004, while the global market for solar thermal collectors grew some 50 percent between 2001 and 2004. As China?s solar market emerges, it will be instrumental to moving the world to greater energy efficiency and environmental sustainability.

Wow! too bad bush couldn't figure out something like this.... Sheesh, we should be the leader in solar/wind and hydro power. Sigh..... Instead, we are letting are tech edge slide into the gutter while china once again takes the lead. Disgusting. Stupid USA, all we can think of is terror and abortion heated arguments over faith based BS...

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: ericlp
Wow! too bad bush couldn't figure out something like this.... Sheesh, we should be the leader in solar/wind and hydro power. Sigh..... Instead, we are letting are tech edge slide into the gutter while china once again takes the lead. Disgusting. Stupid USA, all we can think of is terror and abortion heated arguments over faith based BS...

hydro, good luck getting any new dams installed in the US.
Wind, the US is a leader in this category. We are adding more wind power than anyone else in the world right now.
solar the chinese may be manufacturing more PV than anyone else, but they are not designing them. And most of their production is probably be done by multinationals and not chinese companies. I know shell and BP are fairly large producers of PVs.


While it is good that china is investing in clean technology, they are still going to be adding significant amounts of coal plants to keep up with demand as it remains the most cost effective. Hopefully these will at least has scrubbers so chinas brown cloud does not get worse...