Chill out. Stop fighting over global warming -- here's the smart way to attack it.

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
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I think this guy holds positions similar to most of us skeptics. There is no doubt that the earth is currently getting warmer. (Although some of us may question the cause.)

But before we rush off to spend $180 billion a year to combat this warming why not look at ways to spend that money that will provide a much bigger payoff in a much shorter time.

As he points out, for only 2% of the cost of Kyoto we could save 36,000 people a year by working to combat malaria. Of course combating malaria doesn?t get one an invitation to the Oscars and isn?t very glamorous, but it would have a far greater impact on the world long term.

He also touches on the idea that Global Warming will actually SAVE lives, something you don't hear to often from the GW pushers.
link
All eyes are on Greenland's melting glaciers as alarm about global warming spreads. This year, delegations of U.S. and European politicians have made pilgrimages to the fastest-moving glacier at Ilulissat, where they declare that they see climate change unfolding before their eyes.

Curiously, something that's rarely mentioned is that temperatures in Greenland were higher in 1941 than they are today. Or that melt rates around Ilulissat were faster in the early part of the past century, according to a new study. And while the delegations first fly into Kangerlussuaq, about 100 miles to the south, they all change planes to go straight to Ilulissat -- perhaps because the Kangerlussuaq glacier is inconveniently growing.

I point this out not to challenge the reality of global warming or the fact that it's caused in large part by humans, but because the discussion about climate change has turned into a nasty dustup, with one side arguing that we're headed for catastrophe and the other maintaining that it's all a hoax. I say that neither is right. It's wrong to deny the obvious: The Earth is warming, and we're causing it. But that's not the whole story, and predictions of impending disaster just don't stack up.

We have to rediscover the middle ground, where we can have a sensible conversation. We shouldn't ignore climate change or the policies that could attack it. But we should be honest about the shortcomings and costs of those policies, as well as the benefits.

Environmental groups say that the only way to deal with the effects of global warming is to make drastic cuts in carbon emissions -- a project that will cost the world trillions (the Kyoto Protocol alone would cost $180 billion annually). The research I've done over the last decade, beginning with my first book, "The Skeptical Environmentalist," has convinced me that this approach is unsound; it means spending an awful lot to achieve very little. Instead, we should be thinking creatively and pragmatically about how we could combat the much larger challenges facing our planet.

Nobody knows for certain how climate change will play out. But we should deal with the most widely accepted estimates. According to the United Nations' Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), ocean levels will rise between half a foot and two feet, with the best expectation being about one foot, in this century, mainly because of water expanding as it warms. That's similar to what the world experienced in the past 150 years.

Some individuals and environmental organizations scoff that the IPCC has severely underestimated the melting of glaciers, especially in Greenland. In fact, the IPCC has factored in the likely melt-off from Greenland (contributing a bit over an inch to sea levels in this century) and Antarctica (which, because global warming also generally produces more precipitation, will actually accumulate ice rather than shedding it, making sea levels two inches lower by 2100). At the moment, people are alarmed by a dramatic increase in Greenland's melting. This high level seems transitory, but if sustained it would add three inches, instead of one, to the sea level rise by the end of the century.

A one-foot rise in sea level isn't a catastrophe, though it will pose a problem, particularly for small island nations. But let's remember that very little land was lost when sea levels rose last century. It costs relatively little to protect the land from rising tides: We can drain wetlands, build levees and divert waterways. As nations become richer and land becomes a scarcer commodity, this process makes ever more sense: Like our parents and grandparents, our generation will ensure that the water doesn't claim valuable land.

The IPCC tells us two things: If we focus on economic development and ignore global warming, we're likely to see a 13-inch rise in sea levels by 2100. If we focus instead on environmental concerns and, for instance, adopt the hefty cuts in carbon emissions many environmental groups promote, this could reduce the rise by about five inches. But cutting emissions comes at a cost: Everybody would be poorer in 2100. With less money around to protect land from the sea, cutting carbon emissions would mean that more dry land would be lost, especially in vulnerable regions such as Micronesia, Tuvalu, Vietnam, Bangladesh and the Maldives.

As sea levels rise, so will temperatures. It seems logical to expect more heat waves and therefore more deaths. But though this fact gets much less billing, rising temperatures will also reduce the number of cold spells. This is important because research shows that the cold is a much bigger killer than the heat. According to the first complete peer-reviewed survey of climate change's health effects, global warming will actually save lives. It's estimated that by 2050, global warming will cause almost 400,000 more heat-related deaths each year. But at the same time, 1.8 million fewer people will die from cold.

The Kyoto Protocol, with its drastic emissions cuts, is not a sensible way to stop people from dying in future heat waves. At a much lower cost, urban designers and politicians could lower temperatures more effectively by planting trees, adding water features and reducing the amount of asphalt in at-risk cities. Estimates show that this could reduce the peak temperatures in cities by more than 20 degrees Fahrenheit.

Global warming will claim lives in another way: by increasing the number of people at risk of catching malaria by about 3 percent over this century. According to scientific models, implementing the Kyoto Protocol for the rest of this century would reduce the malaria risk by just 0.2 percent.

On the other hand, we could spend $3 billion annually -- 2 percent of the protocol's cost -- on mosquito nets and medication and cut malaria incidence almost in half within a decade. Malaria death rates are rising in sub-Saharan Africa, but this has nothing to do with climate change and everything to do with poverty: Poor and corrupt governments find it hard to implement and fund the spraying and the provision of mosquito nets that would help eradicate the disease. Yet for every dollar we spend saving one person through policies like the Kyoto Protocol, we could save 36,000 through direct intervention.

Of course, it's not just humans we care about. Environmentalists point out that magnificent creatures such as polar bears will be decimated by global warming as their icy habitat melts. Kyoto would save just one bear a year. Yet every year, hunters kill 300 to 500 polar bears, according to the World Conservation Union. Outlawing this slaughter would be cheap and easy -- and much more effective than a worldwide pact on carbon emissions.

Wherever you look, the inescapable conclusion is the same: Reducing carbon emissions is not the best way to help the world. I don't point this out merely to be contrarian. We do need to fix global warming in the long run. But I'm frustrated at our blinkered focus on policies that won't achieve it.

In 1992, wealthy nations promised to cut emissions to 1990 levels by 2000. Instead, emissions grew by 12 percent. In 1997, they promised to cut emissions to about 5 percent below 1990 levels by 2010. Yet levels will likely be 25 percent higher than hoped for.

The Kyoto Protocol is set to expire in 2012. U.N. members will be negotiating its replacement in Copenhagen by the end of 2009. Politicians insist that the "next Kyoto" should be even tougher. But after two spectacular failures, we have to ask whether "let's try again, and this time let's aim for much higher reductions" is the right approach.

Even if the policymakers' earlier promises had been met, they would have done virtually no good, but would have cost us a small fortune. The climate models show that Kyoto would have postponed the effects of global warming by seven days by the end of the century. Even if the United States and Australia had signed on and everyone stuck to Kyoto for this entire century, we would postpone the effects of global warming by only five years.

Proponents of pacts such as Kyoto want us to spend enormous sums of money doing very little good for the planet a hundred years from now. We need to find a smarter way. The first step is to start focusing our resources on making carbon emissions cuts much easier.

The typical cost of cutting a ton of CO2is currently about $20. Yet, according to a wealth of scientific literature, the damage from a ton of carbon in the atmosphere is about $2. Spending $20 to do $2 worth of good is not smart policy. It may make you feel good, but it's not going to stop global warming.

We need to reduce the cost of cutting emissions from $20 a ton to, say, $2. That would mean that really helping the environment wouldn't just be the preserve of the rich but could be opened up to everyone else -- including China and India, which are expected to be the main emitters of the 21st century but have many more pressing issues to deal with first.

The way to achieve this is to dramatically increase spending on research and development of low-carbon energy. Ideally, every nation should commit to spending 0.05 percent of its gross domestic product exploring non-carbon-emitting energy technologies, be they wind, wave or solar power, or capturing CO2emissions from power plants. This spending could add up to about $25 billion per year but would still be seven times cheaper than the Kyoto Protocol and would increase global R&D tenfold. All nations would be involved, yet the richer ones would pay the larger share.

We must accept that climate change is real and that we've helped cause it. There is no hoax. But neither is there a looming apocalypse.

To some people, cutting carbon emissions has become the answer, regardless of the question. Cutting emissions is said to be our "generational mission." But don't we want to implement the most efficient policies first?

Combating the real climate challenges facing the planet -- malaria, more heat deaths, declining polar bear populations -- often requires simpler, less glamorous policies than carbon cuts. We also need to remember that the 21st century will hold many other challenges, for which we need low-cost, durable solutions.

I formed the Copenhagen Consensus in 2004 so that some of the world's top economists could come together to ask not only where we can do good, but at what cost, and to rank the best things for the world to do first. The top priorities they've come up with are dealing with infectious diseases, malnutrition, agricultural research and first-world access to third-world agriculture. For less than a fifth of Kyoto's price tag, we could tackle all these issues.

Obviously we should also work on a long-term solution to climate change. Solving it will take the better part of a century and will require a political will spanning political parties, continents and generations. If we invest in research and development, we'll do some real good in the long run, rather than just making ourselves feel good today.

But embracing the best response to global warming is difficult in the midst of bitter fighting that shuts out sensible dialogue. So first, we really need to cool our debate.
 

techs

Lifer
Sep 26, 2000
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For only about 55 percent of Kyoto we could have universal health care.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
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Originally posted by: techs
For only about 55 percent of Kyoto we could have universal health care.
Did you fail math?

Kyoto $180 billion a year, Universal Health Care between $1.7 and $2 trillion a year.
 

techs

Lifer
Sep 26, 2000
28,559
4
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Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: techs
For only about 55 percent of Kyoto we could have universal health care.
Did you fail math?

Kyoto $180 billion a year, Universal Health Care between $1.7 and $2 trillion a year.
Hilarys universal health care plan. 100 billion. One seventh of the Bush tax cuts in 2002 and probably less than a tenth of it now.

 

MonkeyK

Golden Member
May 27, 2001
1,396
8
81
Another silly article posted by PJ.

Article cliff notes:
-Ignore global warming because it is cheaper to address some of the issues that may arise due to global warming than to address global warming
-global warming will save human lives
-we are incapable of coming up with solutions for global warming that anyone could ever be willing to implement
-addressing global warming will destroy the economy

What a bunch of baloney!
 

BrownTown

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 2005
5,314
1
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Yeah, I remember watching Bjorn Lomborg speak to the senate environment and public works committee the same day Al Gore did, unfortunately Al Gore got TONS of press and it was a whole media circus, and then then this dude cam up after him all the media left and even all the democratic senators left too (talk about only want to hear one side). However when he spoke he pretty much exactly expressed my views on the issue. People ALWAYS have a tendency to VASTLY overestimate the effect of an unknown danger while VASTLY underestimating the threat of everyday dangers. So for example people might be terrified of sharks, but your far more likely to be killed by a domesticated dog. Or people get frightened over bird flu, but your much more likely to die of a common cold. Same goes for radiation from nuclear plants, something few people understand and therefore fear, but FAR less likely to kill you than the radiation you get from the sun getting a tan.

Global Warming is the new "doomesday scenario", I remember only ~8 years ago it was giant meteors, and you saw movies coming out like deep impact and armageddon about meteors. Now its global warming and people are making movies about climate change. The fact is that the economic impact of shutting down all CO2 production is FAR to much to make up for tiny number of lives lost. People need to understand that there are still tens of millions of people who die every year from stuff us in the western world don't even even think about. Like not having enough clean water, or food, or antibiotics, these are all EASILY solved problems and can be cheaply solved. Al gore and others try to make it out like they have the moral high ground here, but imo THEY are the immoral ones, the environmental movement is taking its hatred of big business and obsession over the environment and putting it over the importance of human lives. IF all the money spent to combat global warming were used to feed people in Africa we could save a million lives a year. People are allowing fearmongering and lies to replace rational and well though out decision making.

The problem is there are too many people who are unable or unwilling to see the big picture, you cannot focus on any one tragesdy, you have to consider them ALL and weigh your response accordingly. We DO need to try to do what we can to combat global warming, but also to combat world hunger, disease, clean water, war, cancer, education, healthcare, care for the elderly etc... IF after weighing all these options it becomes clear that global warming has a very bad (lives saved)/($$$) ration then it makes no sense to try to combat it. And for those who think its is horrible or inhumane to put a dollar value on human life, please do not think of dollars as little green pieces of paper, this is what many people thin and it is terribly wrong. Dollars area symbolic representation for the FINITE resources we have available to us. Since our resources our finite and the need for these resources will always outstrip their supply it is nescecary to budget them as bast as possible to save the MOST POSSIBLE LIVES. We can never save every life, we can never cure every disease or stop every flood, or end every drought, but we CAN try to use the resources available to us to combat these disasters in as ration and well reason way as possible. Deciding based on where we can do the most good, not on who can make the best documentary or get hollywoods approval etc...
 
Jun 27, 2005
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Originally posted by: techs
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: techs
For only about 55 percent of Kyoto we could have universal health care.
Did you fail math?

Kyoto $180 billion a year, Universal Health Care between $1.7 and $2 trillion a year.
Hilarys universal health care plan. 100 billion. One seventh of the Bush tax cuts in 2002 and probably less than a tenth of it now.

You really believe it's only going to cost $100 billion? Hmm... I have this bridge... Wanna buy it? I'll sell it to you cheap.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,791
6,771
126
Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy
Originally posted by: techs
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: techs
For only about 55 percent of Kyoto we could have universal health care.
Did you fail math?

Kyoto $180 billion a year, Universal Health Care between $1.7 and $2 trillion a year.
Hilarys universal health care plan. 100 billion. One seventh of the Bush tax cuts in 2002 and probably less than a tenth of it now.

You really believe it's only going to cost $100 billion? Hmm... I have this bridge... Wanna buy it? I'll sell it to you cheap.

Now that I've heard the bridge pitch I'm totally convinced. Thanks for convincing me without making me have to think or see any facts to support our new position. I can see clearly now, the rain is gone......
 

techs

Lifer
Sep 26, 2000
28,559
4
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Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy
Originally posted by: techs
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: techs
For only about 55 percent of Kyoto we could have universal health care.
Did you fail math?

Kyoto $180 billion a year, Universal Health Care between $1.7 and $2 trillion a year.
Hilarys universal health care plan. 100 billion. One seventh of the Bush tax cuts in 2002 and probably less than a tenth of it now.

You really believe it's only going to cost $100 billion? Hmm... I have this bridge... Wanna buy it? I'll sell it to you cheap.

Now that I've heard the bridge pitch I'm totally convinced. Thanks for convincing me without making me have to think or see any facts to support our new position. I can see clearly now, the rain is gone......
And don't forget the Bush tax cuts actually increased tax revenue, so Bush really didn't double the deficit.....

 

Isla

Elite member
Sep 12, 2000
7,749
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Here's the real problem with climate change...

It's too hot for too long for most plants to grow and produce healthy crops. Communities in the southeast United States are running dangerously low on water.

I'm coming from a purely non-political point of view.... I'm a hobby gardener and the past 12 months have been the worst I have ever seen in terms of growing plants. And I tend to grow the most hardy varieties!!!!

I think to truly appreciate the problem, it has to affect you directly. Until then, it's all just conjecture.
 

techs

Lifer
Sep 26, 2000
28,559
4
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Originally posted by: Isla
Here's the real problem with climate change...

It's too hot for too long for most plants to grow and produce healthy crops. Communities in the southeast United States are running dangerously low on water.

I'm coming from a purely non-political point of view.... I'm a hobby gardener and the past 12 months have been the worst I have ever seen in terms of growing plants. And I tend to grow the most hardy varieties!!!!

I think to truly appreciate the problem, it has to affect you directly. Until then, it's all just conjecture.
And farmers are already being affected. In borderline growing areas farmers are switching their crops because they see the changes in the climate and are planting accordingly.


 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,890
10,212
136
Originally posted by: techs
And don't forget the Bush tax cuts actually increased tax revenue, so Bush really didn't double the deficit.....

Tax cuts increasing revenue? Amazing what happens when you don't tax an economy to death.

The deficit has to do with spending. You know, those programs that require unrealistic guaranteed increases every single year?
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
I have an idea - let's do both, take steps on global warming *and* fight malaria etc. Want a quick $150 billion? Remove the sentence from the Medicare drug bill banning the government from negotiating drug prices.

Want more? Bush tax cuts for the top 2%. Iraq war. Other military spending driven by corruption. Other corporate subsidies from taxpayers. Reduce interest payments by reducing debt.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
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Originally posted by: Craig234
I have an idea - let's do both, take steps on global warming *and* fight malaria etc. Want a quick $150 billion? Remove the sentence from the Medicare drug bill banning the government from negotiating drug prices.

The only problem with that is the premiums for medicare part D are below what was projected even if the government negotiated drug prices. It appears large insurance company negotiate prices as well or better than the government can.
 

NaughtyGeek

Golden Member
May 3, 2005
1,065
0
71
Originally posted by: BrownTown
IF all the money spent to combat global warming were used to feed people in Africa we could save a million lives a year.

Don't you understand that if we would just let those people die, we would reduce their carbon footprint thereby helping with Global Warming. :laugh:

Global warming is far from the priority politicians want to make it. It's much easier to point to a "problem" with no readily available solution than to the numerous problems we could actually do something about but choose not to. Don't get me wrong, alternative energy research and investments are very wise and a great use of financial resources, but there are numerous other issues we should focus on. And Billary's "health care" ain't it either. Leave that garbage in the other topics on the subject.

 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
There are a lot of good reasons to do the stuff that fights global warming even if you don't believe in man-made global warming. Why not just do those things and not worry about whether or not Al Gore is right?
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
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Do we always know the consequences of our own actions? Were we greeted with flowers and candy in Iraq? But to stay on thread, if anything, the one thing we have learned about Global warming is thats its far more complex and has far many related causes and effects than anyone realized even a few years ago.

So now we get another thread from Non-Prof John with the same damn thesis. That GW is just a slight continuum only involving a few factors.

Every three weeks or so we get another thread from the same source with the same thesis. As soon as the thread is explored with no real conclusion, we just need to wait a few weeks and we get another thread with the same message which is; Since we don't know everything about Global warming , do nothing.

Unfortunately mother nature operates differently in general. Slight changes will operate as a continuum, but suddenly the change will get to another point and then do something radically different just like water will suddenly turn to ice or vice versa. And a combination of these tipping points we ill understand may radically change earth in a non reversible manner.

So we also have to ask should we do something about global warming as opposed to nothing based on what we know now?

Since previous threads have not answered these questions, why do we assume this thread will do any better? And maybe raises the moderator type question, should not these threads on GW be somewhat restricted to only radically new information?
 

Brovane

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
6,415
2,596
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Great article ProfJohn. Thanks for posting it was some very good reading and gives some good food for thought even if some people didn't take it as such. Unfortunately some people just are just to busy being "Luddites" to listen to any thing that is contrary to their view point.
 

Rogodin2

Banned
Jul 2, 2003
3,219
0
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We need to CURTAIL global population growth. Mass dieoff is the only way to mitigate global warming and the carbon dioxide emissions.

The solution really is that simple.

Rogo
 

BrownTown

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 2005
5,314
1
0
Originally posted by: Rainsford
There are a lot of good reasons to do the stuff that fights global warming even if you don't believe in man-made global warming. Why not just do those things and not worry about whether or not Al Gore is right?

The reason why not to just do them is that they will run our economy into the ground. It is hard to underestimate the importance of fossil fuels in our society, TBH it would be a struggle even in the USA to keep 300 million people alive without the help of fossil fuels, in the developing world it would be disaster. I'll I can say is that investing hundreds of billions of dollars into something which is not 100% proven to have any affect is a pretty stupid idea from all sides. Why is it that liberals can see so clearly how stupid it is for Bush to waste hundreds of billions of dollars in Iraq based on fear mongering and contrived data, but they are so blind to the fact that efforts against global warming are based on the EXACT SAME THINGS.

Not to sound too out there in the right wing, but to spend that kind of resources you have to be SURE, really really really d@mn sure because the opportunity cost is huge, and I'm not talking huge amounts of big screen TVs and fancy cars, I'm talking about peoples LIVES.

Originally posted by: Rogodin2
We need to CURTAIL global population growth. Mass dieoff is the only way to mitigate global warming and the carbon dioxide emissions.

The solution really is that simple.

Rogo

Yes, the answer really is that simple and yet the simplicity of the fact is outweighed only by the impossibility of the action. Dieoff isn't nescecarry though, but reducing new births would sure help. However, as well all know the nature of all living things (including humans) is to grow at an exponential rate until all resources are consumed and then to suffer massive population shock until new resources come along which can be exploited. If humans cannot control population than dieoff is a mathematical certainty, the only question is how long we can put it off. As many are likely aware Thomas Malthus predicted such things hundreds of years ago. That population tends to grow at a geometric rate and food supply at an arithmetic rate, however he was incorrect, new oil based pesticides and fertilizers allowed food to grow at an exponential rate as well. However a scarcity in oil will result in the end of these techniques and food supply will likely drop until new techniques are mastered (genetic engineering of food supplies most likely). Personally I am not one of the eco-doomers like Rogo is, but this "golden age" we are in right now isn't going to last forever, I only hope that at least it lasts as long as I am alive :p, and that when it does slow down that it doesn't hit too hard. TBH I think global warming is not even in the top 5 of our worries, peaking of many raw materials and energy sources (most notable oil and natural gas, but likely also things like copper, uranium, etc..) will occur with in our lifetimes, if we cannot replace these resources than there will be dire consequences.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,048
55,532
136
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Originally posted by: techs
And don't forget the Bush tax cuts actually increased tax revenue, so Bush really didn't double the deficit.....

Tax cuts increasing revenue? Amazing what happens when you don't tax an economy to death.

The deficit has to do with spending. You know, those programs that require unrealistic guaranteed increases every single year?

The idea that tax cuts increase tax revenue is at best unproven and at worst (and most likely) a complete myth.

This is also backed up by the nonpartisan Congressional Research Service's analysis of Bush's tax cuts. The long and short of it? They estimate that the positive economic force of a tax cut pays for about 10% of the cut in terms of lost governmental revenue. So... yeah.
 

maluckey

Platinum Member
Jan 31, 2003
2,933
0
71
There are a lot of good reasons to do the stuff that fights global warming even if you don't believe in man-made global warming. Why not just do those things and not worry about whether or not Al Gore is right?

I like the way you think nowadys:D A change from several weeks back...no?
 

Rogodin2

Banned
Jul 2, 2003
3,219
0
0
browntown

Personally I am not one of the eco-doomers like Rogo

I'm not an eco-doomer. I do believe that humanity will pull through and survive (not at the population level it does now though). Peak liquid fuel production doesn't get mainstream attention, so to see someone post about it on these forums is 'strange'. :)

I did like your post.

Rogo
 
Jun 27, 2005
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Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy
Originally posted by: techs
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: techs
For only about 55 percent of Kyoto we could have universal health care.
Did you fail math?

Kyoto $180 billion a year, Universal Health Care between $1.7 and $2 trillion a year.
Hilarys universal health care plan. 100 billion. One seventh of the Bush tax cuts in 2002 and probably less than a tenth of it now.

You really believe it's only going to cost $100 billion? Hmm... I have this bridge... Wanna buy it? I'll sell it to you cheap.

Now that I've heard the bridge pitch I'm totally convinced. Thanks for convincing me without making me have to think or see any facts to support our new position. I can see clearly now, the rain is gone......

Oh pardon me... are you naive enough to believe a politician when they tell you that some all encompasing program will only cost so much money and no more? Are you?

Please...