Child support in the era of abortion

[Rainsford]

Who said the mother has to be responsible for the child? There's always adoption.

One of them has two consequences, pregnancy or death of a potential child.

The other has two consequences, 18 years of cost or being told your potential child was killed.

I'd say that 18 years of cost = 9 months of pregnancy.

Both cause physical and mental toll on the other person (depending on how healthy / financially viable you are)

I'm not a woman, so I can't really judge what being pregnant is like. But from what I've heard from the women I DO know, I don't think they'd equate it to having to pay for something.

Don't get me wrong. On a case-by-case basis, I could see a reasonable argument for a man being free from the obligation of paying child support. I just think the comparison to abortion isn't a very valid one.

 

[HAL9000]

I'm not a woman, so I can't really judge what being pregnant is like. But from what I've heard from the women I DO know, I don't think they'd equate it to having to pay for something.

Don't get me wrong. On a case-by-case basis, I could see a reasonable argument for a man being free from the obligation of paying child support. I just think the comparison to abortion isn't a very valid one.

I would say that a 18 years of being forced to pay for something is comparable to 9 months of extreme pain (which in my experience being pregnant is not)

 

[CitizenKain]

I would say that a 18 years of being forced to pay for something is comparable to 9 months of extreme pain (which in my experience being pregnant is not)

I hope you are trolling, because I have a hard time believing anyone as stupid as you can figure out how to use a computer.

 

[Elfear]

99% of people who engage in consensual sexual intercourse understand that there is the potential for pregnancy to occur, even the teenage kids in the back of dad's Cadillac. You want to take the gamble of an unwanted pregnancy, be prepared for the consequences. You want your few minutes of fun? Man up and deal with the results. Giving the woman the option of killing the baby or receiving no financial support from you isn't really much of a choice. You can't wave off your responsibility with that ultimatum.

 

[Blackjack200]

I've made the argument on these forums that in this day and age when women can, and should, take their financial resources into account in deciding whether or not to carry their unborn children to term, men should absolutely have the same option. What's the benefit in yolking some young man with an impossible financial burden for twenty years? To punish him for having sex? What doe we gain by throwing huge roadblocks in life, making it difficult if not impossible to go to college and contribute to our economy?

There are other answers that make more sense. If the state decides that a child needs support, then the state should support it. Forcing some guy to pay for it because he was the sperm donor is archaic.

But you know what? I'm exhausted from defending women from wave after wave of misogynist attacks from the ideologues on the right. So how about this: Get rid of all barriers to abortion, get rid of sonograms, parental consent, late stage bans, make sure that all women have access to contraception through their insurance plans, and then maybe I'll have the energy to give a fuck about this much less pressing issue.

In other words, start treating women like a goddamn 21st century developed nation should, let them make decisions with their doctors, and then, maybe then, I'll stand up for the men that I think are getting a raw deal.

 

[Blackjack200]

99% of people who engage in consensual sexual intercourse understand that there is the potential for pregnancy to occur, even the teenage kids in the back of dad's Cadillac. You want to take the gamble of an unwanted pregnancy, be prepared for the consequences. You want your few minutes of fun? Man up and deal with the results. Giving the woman the option of killing the baby or receiving no financial support from you isn't really much of a choice. You can't wave off your responsibility with that ultimatum.

The problem with that is that sex is a basic part of our biology. We see plenty of evidence of what happens when you try to deny that. All you're doing is punishing the ones who out of incaution or misfortune, end of pregnant when they did not want to be.

 

[HAL9000]

I hope you are trolling, because I have a hard time believing anyone as stupid as you can figure out how to use a computer.

If I were making up what I believe that wouldn't be trolling.

I'm not doing that in any event.

 

[umbrella39]

I disagree, we'll have a say eventually.

I think you are even further away today from you ever seeing that day that you were 50 years ago.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

The problem with that is that sex is a basic part of our biology. We see plenty of evidence of what happens when you try to deny that.

eh?

 

[Blackjack200]

eh?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_church_sex_scandal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstinence-only_sex_education#Effectiveness
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masturbation#Frequency.2C_age.2C_and_sex

Do you have any links to suggest that a statistically significant group of individuals can deny themselves sexual satisfaction when the opportunity for sexual satisfaction exists?

 

[HAL9000]

I think you are even further away today from you ever seeing that day that you were 50 years ago.

Were talking about it now, we weren't then.

Phase 1: get the abortion limit moved to a more appropriate date, it's ridiculous at the moment.

 

[PsiStar]

I only browsed over the comments, but being one that has made it thru all of the support payments I have to say to deal with it. But only because you chose to be apart of this society. My kids love me and are my best fans ... not a thought that I ever imagined long before having kids.

And, because you have no alternative, unless you have family in the old Soviet Block & intend to go visit forever (fuck the kids), you must deal with this & go past it for a better life. Basically, if you "fuck" a woman in this society, expect to support one way or the other. This is fact. So either use condoms, abstain, or succumb to Charlie Sheens' mattra, "... bang a whore, at least you know what it will cost ...". I am sure that is not the exact quote, but it is close.

 

[shadow9d9]

Thems the breaks. Be careful who you have sex with.

 

[Elfear]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_church_sex_scandal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstinence-only_sex_education#Effectiveness
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masturbation#Frequency.2C_age.2C_and_sex

Do you have any links to suggest that a statistically significant group of individuals can deny themselves sexual satisfaction when the opportunity for sexual satisfaction exists?

Lol. You need to get out more. I grew up where the overwhelming majority of people didn't engage in sexual activity until they were married. That's a long time to exhibit self control over their raging hormones.

I feel sorry that you have so little control over yourself that you do whatever your body tells you to. When you get angry do you just lash out like a 2-yr old because that's your body's natural desire? If you're married, do you not have any qualms about sleeping with another woman because, hey, your body told you to?

Let me ask you this. If you punched someone in the face because your body dictated the response to your anger, would you then tell the person you relinquished all responsibility because it was a natural biological urge? Maybe like having sex to satisfy your natural biological urge and then telling the woman you relinquish responsibility for the baby you helped create?

 

[Dr. Zaus]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_church_sex_scandal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstinence-only_sex_education#Effectiveness
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masturbation#Frequency.2C_age.2C_and_sex

Do you have any links to suggest that a statistically significant group of individuals can deny themselves sexual satisfaction when the opportunity for sexual satisfaction exists?

From your link:"Contrary to conventional wisdom, several studies actually reveal a positive correlation between the frequency of masturbation and the frequency of intercourse."


The catholic sex-scandal comes from repressing gays by pushing them into the clergy. A statistically insignificant number of these sex-scandals involve clergy having sex with pre-pubescent boys or forcing sex on the guy. Most of them are consensual homosexual relationships.

And some abstinence education is intact efficacious:
Blind peer reviewed paper

So, yes, as part of an overall scheme to improve the health of pubescent children it is rational to encourage that they wait to perform any behavior that may lead to pregnancy until they are ready to deal with a child. Encouraging sexual activity that is safe, including vaginal abstinence, condoms and proper birth-control is essential to combating the public health-crisis that is people that refuse to keep their wick-dry outside of a monogamous relationship.

 

[Blackjack200]

Lol. You need to get out more. I grew up where the overwhelming majority of people didn't engage in sexual activity until they were married. That's a long time to exhibit self control over their raging hormones.

Or so you thought. Do you really know who was engaging in what? I don't deny that abstinence can exist. A monastery or other same sex/repressive environment can create an environment where the individuals won't have sex.

I feel sorry that you have so little control over yourself that you do whatever your body tells you to. When you get angry do you just lash out like a 2-yr old because that's your body's natural desire? If you're married, do you not have any qualms about sleeping with another woman because, hey, your body told you to?

Let me ask you this. If you punched someone in the face because your body dictated the response to your anger, would you then tell the person you relinquished all responsibility because it was a natural biological urge? Maybe like having sex to satisfy your natural biological urge and then telling the woman you relinquish responsibility for the baby you helped create?

I can hold my breath if I need to. For a minute; maybe. But then I must breathe, for I am human. You need not feel sorry for me. I am not ashamed that I am human. Whatever your attitudes are toward "relinquishing all responsibility because of natural biological urges" the reality of recreational sex remains, and will not go away. The way we have of dealing with the poor bastards that are born as a result is a proven loser.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

I can hold my breath if I need to. For a minute; maybe. But then I must breathe, for I am human.

And any woman you're with should understand that you lack fidelity if there's some greater-than-minute-long interruption of your needs, right?

My woman is rare to me, inimitable and valuable because of it. If I lived a life of shooting a wad at anything that would let me stick it in her, then it would be impossible to value my wife as I do today. I pity you as I pity the homeless man that will eat anything that falls infront of him. He's willing to risk illness, possibly death, just for another bight to eat... and here I am, every day a full meal.

Your life is full of buffets that you have to put a rubber coating in your mouth to eat; lest you risk illness. It is a sorry state to exist in and I hope you get out of it. But with the "man must eat" mentality, it sounds like there are few women that you'll be able to trust because your "human" desires make you so very untrustworthy.

 

[Blackjack200]

And any woman you're with should understand that you lack fidelity if there's some greater-than-minute-long interruption of your needs, right?

My woman is rare to me, inimitable and valuable because of it. If I lived a life of shooting a wad at anything that would let me stick it in her, then it would be impossible to value my wife as I do today. I pity you as I pity the homeless man that will eat anything that falls infront of him. He's willing to risk illness, possibly death, just for another bight to eat... and here I am, every day a full meal.

Your life is full of buffets that you have to put a rubber coating in your mouth to eat; lest you risk illness. It is a sorry state to exist in and I hope you get out of it. But with the "man must eat" mentality, it sounds like there are few women that you'll be able to trust because your "human" desires make you so very untrustworthy.

You assume far too much. I believe that while a few individuals are happy pursuing casual sexual encounters, most of us look for intimacy with a one other person. That doesn't necessarily mean that we are ready for that intimacy, and the trust that must be built for that intimacy to exist in any meaningful way, at the same time we are ready to begin exploring our sexual selves. If you believe otherwise, that's fine, I doubt it will have much impact on lives of women who become unintentionally pregnant, or their lovers.

As for your comments on my life, they are offensive in ways that you cannot even imagine. The rubber coating you reference is indeed a part of my life, and the illness I risk is real. My state may be sorry in your eyes, but I have no desire to ever leave the situation I am in. I am not an "internet tough guy", and I think casual threats online are silly. I'll try to phrase this in a way that is not a threat but still delivers the sincerity of my feelings. If anyone ever expressed or implied to me what you stated in your third paragraph, the encounter would end with one of us incapacitated.

As for your first paragraph, it doesn't bother me nearly so much. She is quite capable of deciding on her own who to trust. It's only her feelings on that subject that matter to me in the least.

 

[cybrsage]

When men can become pregnant...then, and ONLY then should they get a say.

Why is this even a valid argument? If the man wants the baby aborted, but the woman does not, why is his inability to become pregnat a reason to make him pay child support for 18 years?

 

[cybrsage]

99% of people who engage in consensual sexual intercourse understand that there is the potential for pregnancy to occur, even the teenage kids in the back of dad's Cadillac. You want to take the gamble of an unwanted pregnancy, be prepared for the consequences. You want your few minutes of fun? Man up and deal with the results. Giving the woman the option of killing the baby or receiving no financial support from you isn't really much of a choice. You can't wave off your responsibility with that ultimatum.

Women waive off their responsibility already at a whim. Your argument is that women should be allowed to waive their responsibility at a whim but men are not because....well, just because.

Why should women have the ability to waive off their responsibilities at a whim but men must be responsible no matter what?

 

[cybrsage]

But you know what? I'm exhausted from defending women from wave after wave of misogynist attacks from the ideologues on the right. So how about this: Get rid of all barriers to abortion, get rid of sonograms, parental consent, late stage bans, make sure that all women have access to contraception through their insurance plans, and then maybe I'll have the energy to give a fuck about this much less pressing issue.

In other words, start treating women like a goddamn 21st century developed nation should, let them make decisions with their doctors, and then, maybe then, I'll stand up for the men that I think are getting a raw deal.

Parental consent is needed to have a tooth filled due to having a cavity. It should also be needed for an abortion, since abortions are riskier than having your cavity filled at the dentist.

 

[Blackjack200]

Abortion is not as risky as giving birth.

 

[cybrsage]

Abortion is not as risky as giving birth.

Irrelevant. If parental permission is needed for something as benign as getting a cavity filled by the dentist, it certainly should be needed for something far more risky like having an abortion.

Of course, also allowing a judge to step in is important, for those very few cases of parental rape of their children.

 

[Ausm]

If a woman gets pregnant, it's her choice and her choice alone to either have a child or an abortion. If she chooses the former, why, then, should a man be held responsible for her decision and be forced to pay child support? It's simply unreasonable that he has absolutely no say in the matter, yet if she chooses to bear a child, he is held fully accountable for her decision.

I see a few solutions to this problem:
1. Outlaw abortion. The problem no longer exists.
2. End mandatory child support payments.
3. Give men a say in the fate of their unborn children.

You banged her and it's her body.

/thread

 

[HAL9000]

You banged her and it's her body.

/thread

She banged you and it's your money.

\thread