Cheney: President Obama Wants ‘To Take America Down’

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J

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
eskimospy said:
We covered this before, your statement that Obama's action resulted in Libya becoming a failed state is at odds with the history. Libya already was a failed state by the time the west intervened.

I really thought we had cleared this up before, how did you still end up with such a wrong chronology?



As covered before, they turn 'a blind eye' to it because it's literally not what happened in history. Your description is temporally impossible.
Click to expand...

Facts rarely make a dent in right wing belief. Having been suckered, they generally stay that way. Propaganda 101.
 
F

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,503
50,657
136
Doc Savage Fan said:
Surely you know that many experts disagree with you.

http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/143044/alan-j-kuperman/obamas-libya-debacle
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I do! Alan Kuperman is one of the leading critics of the Libyan intervention. He uses some very strange and selective facts in that article, some of which his own sources that he cites dispute or make clear that their data is incomplete. (He uses HRW stats to claim that the government wasn't targeting civilians when HRW explicitly says they were, for example. The idea that the Libyan civil war was about to end before NATO intervention is also highly dubious)

Regardless, my objection to your statement was that you said NATO intervention was the cause of Libya becoming a failed state. It seems odd to attempt to make that argument when the Libyan government was already engaged in a bloody civil war that had resulted thus far in it losing control over wide swaths of its own territory. It already WAS a failed state.
 
Jaskalas

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,896
7,922
136
Doc Savage Fan said:
Yet Obama gets a pass for bombing the crap out of sovereign country which resulted in a cesspool of human misery...ultimately making it a failed state with dramatic increases in violence, deaths, and human rights abuses. Libya used to help us fight terrorism, now it's a harbor for them. Obama's abject failure in Libya is clear....we should have never got involved. Isn't it ironic that those who rabidly vilify Cheney are the same ones who turn a blind eye toward's the results of Obama's warmongering? And I'm not saying this to defend Cheney...I'm saying this to vilify all who advocate war. "War, what is it good for? Absolutely nothing!"
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Wasn't Libya a European adventure, and Obama / United States merely tagged along for the ride? I mean... I think we rode shotgun on that one. Yes, we are responsible for our part... I just want to be clear about what our part was.

It's terrible what we did to Libya. The Arab Spring is nothing more than the rise of groups like ISIS.
 
G

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Jaskalas said:
Wasn't Libya a European adventure, and Obama / United States merely tagged along for the ride? I mean... I think we rode shotgun on that one. Yes, we are responsible for our part... I just want to be clear about what our part was.

It's terrible what we did to Libya. The Arab Spring is nothing more than the rise of groups like ISIS.
Click to expand...

I'd have to look it up. But I believe we supplied the majority of the weapons used in the operation.

While Libya may have been a "failed" state. They were on the verge of ending that distinction before NATO intervened. And nobody can argue the aftermath has been a success. The only thing missing is a banner with "mission accomplished" draped behind Obama.
 
Doc Savage Fan

Doc Savage Fan

Lifer
Nov 30, 2006
15,456
389
121
eskimospy said:
I do! Alan Kuperman is one of the leading critics of the Libyan intervention. He uses some very strange and selective facts in that article, some of which his own sources that he cites dispute or make clear that their data is incomplete. (He uses HRW stats to claim that the government wasn't targeting civilians when HRW explicitly says they were, for example. The idea that the Libyan civil war was about to end before NATO intervention is also highly dubious)

Regardless, my objection to your statement was that you said NATO intervention was the cause of Libya becoming a failed state. It seems odd to attempt to make that argument when the Libyan government was already engaged in a bloody civil war that had resulted thus far in it losing control over wide swaths of its own territory. It already WAS a failed state.
Click to expand...
More experts who disagree with you. It's OK to be wrong occasionally.

Four Years After NATO-Backed Ouster of Gaddafi, Libya Is a Failed State
http://www.commondreams.org/views/2...nato-backed-ouster-gaddafi-libya-failed-state

NATO’s “Humanitarian Intervention” in Libya: Transforming a Country into a “Failed State”
http://www.globalresearch.ca/natos-...forming-a-country-into-a-failed-state/5376660
 
F

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,503
50,657
136
Genx87 said:
I'd have to look it up. But I believe we supplied the majority of the weapons used in the operation.

While Libya may have been a "failed" state. They were on the verge of ending that distinction before NATO intervened. And nobody can argue the aftermath has been a success. The only thing missing is a banner with "mission accomplished" draped behind Obama.
Click to expand...

The US definitely engaged in significant strikes on Libya.

I sincerely doubt Libya was about to return to a peacefully functioning state before NATO intervened. That hasn't been the case in...well...basically any other Arab country that has seen that kind of revolt, regardless of the outcome in the short term.
 
G

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
eskimospy said:
The US definitely engaged in significant strikes on Libya.

I sincerely doubt Libya was about to return to a peacefully functioning state before NATO intervened. That hasn't been the case in...well...basically any other Arab country that has seen that kind of revolt, regardless of the outcome in the short term.
Click to expand...

We intervened because of the threat of the rebellion collapsing and the projected genocide that was to happen. Without intervention the rebels would had lost their last major city. They may have tried to fight, they may have fled, or maybe they would had given up. But chances are high Libya would had secured a much higher state of security than has happened post intervention. Libya is a disaster right now.
 
F

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,503
50,657
136
Doc Savage Fan said:
More experts who disagree with you. It's OK to be wrong occasionally.

Four Years After NATO-Backed Ouster of Gaddafi, Libya Is a Failed State
http://www.commondreams.org/views/2...nato-backed-ouster-gaddafi-libya-failed-state

NATO’s “Humanitarian Intervention” in Libya: Transforming a Country into a “Failed State”
http://www.globalresearch.ca/natos-...forming-a-country-into-a-failed-state/5376660
Click to expand...

It's very true, we should all be open to admitting when we are wrong. Once again though, you do not appear to have read your own links:

Your first link dispute anything that I've said.

Your second link is to a website run by a group that describes itself as "committed to curbing the tide of globalisation and disarming the new world order" where the author thinks we bombed Libya because they wanted to leave the IMF. That's conspiracy crank territory. Nice "expert" though, haha. (the founder also appears to believe the US had advance knowledge of 9/11)

I strongly suggest you read your own links better in the future and learn to evaluate sources better instead of just linking the first thing that tells you what you want to hear.
 
F

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,503
50,657
136
Genx87 said:
We intervened because of the threat of the rebellion collapsing and the projected genocide that was to happen. Without intervention the rebels would had lost their last major city. They may have tried to fight, they may have fled, or maybe they would had given up. But chances are high Libya would had secured a much higher state of security than has happened post intervention. Libya is a disaster right now.
Click to expand...

Presumably Yemen and others would disagree with you that things would return to normal.

I'm not saying Libya isn't a disaster now, but the idea that Libya wasn't a failed state before NATO's intervention is simply wrong, and the idea that Libya would have been better off without our intervention is possible, but considering developments in other countries that have faced these kind of revolts seems questionable as well.
 
Doc Savage Fan

Doc Savage Fan

Lifer
Nov 30, 2006
15,456
389
121
Jaskalas said:
Wasn't Libya a European adventure, and Obama / United States merely tagged along for the ride? I mean... I think we rode shotgun on that one. Yes, we are responsible for our part... I just want to be clear about what our part was.

It's terrible what we did to Libya. The Arab Spring is nothing more than the rise of groups like ISIS.
Click to expand...
I thought we took a leadership role but I could be mistaken...internet is crazy slow and I've got some other things to do at the moment.

I completely agree...it's horrible what we did to Libya. When are we ever going to learn?
 
Doc Savage Fan

Doc Savage Fan

Lifer
Nov 30, 2006
15,456
389
121
eskimospy said:
It's very true, we should all be open to admitting when we are wrong. Once again though, you do not appear to have read your own links:

Your first link dispute anything that I've said.

Your second link is to a website run by a group that describes itself as "committed to curbing the tide of globalisation and disarming the new world order" where the author thinks we bombed Libya because they wanted to leave the IMF. That's conspiracy crank territory. Nice "expert" though, haha. (the founder also appears to believe the US had advance knowledge of 9/11)

I strongly suggest you read your own links better in the future and learn to evaluate sources better instead of just linking the first thing that tells you what you want to hear.
Click to expand...
OK, let's try this...please provide credible links that say Libya was a failed state before NATO intervention.
 
JSt0rm

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,947
126
Doc Savage Fan said:
I thought we took a leadership role but I could be mistaken...internet is crazy slow and I've got some other things to do at the moment.

I completely agree...it's horrible what we did to Libya. When are we ever going to learn?
Click to expand...

You are never mistaken doc. Keep fighting that good fight against this godless commie scum. We expect no less from you.
 
F

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,503
50,657
136
Doc Savage Fan said:
OK, let's try this...please provide credible links that say Libya was a failed state before NATO intervention.
Click to expand...

I already did last time, I even linked you the definition of a failed state and went over it step by step. We already went over this before, remember?

As an aside for a good time go read some more articles from your "experts" at globalresearch. They have some sweet anti-vaxxer articles, some on chemtrails, and some on how 9/11 was an inside job. (not joking)
 
Attic

Attic

Diamond Member
Jan 9, 2010
4,282
2
76
Cheney is exposing how some conservatives think about those who disagree with them.

It's stubborness and rigidity of thought to an absurd degree. But it's out there and not just from conservatives like Cheney, plenty of Libs fall into this method of thinking about those who see things differently than them.

Cliffs: For Cheney anything different than his thinking = Armageddon. Armageddon = Bad, so why think differently than Cheney?
 
J

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Jaskalas said:
Wasn't Libya a European adventure, and Obama / United States merely tagged along for the ride? I mean... I think we rode shotgun on that one. Yes, we are responsible for our part... I just want to be clear about what our part was.

It's terrible what we did to Libya. The Arab Spring is nothing more than the rise of groups like ISIS.
Click to expand...

Doc Savage Fan said:
I thought we took a leadership role but I could be mistaken...internet is crazy slow and I've got some other things to do at the moment.

I completely agree...it's horrible what we did to Libya. When are we ever going to learn?
Click to expand...

Mock piety is so transparently partisan, especially from those of the Neocon persuasion.

Qaddafi would still have been regarded as an international pariah in this country prior to his PR gift to the Bush Admin wrt his supposed nuclear weapons program. After that, they were all lovey-dovey.

Principles!

Meanwhile, Righties generally support the adventures in Afghanistan & Iraq, advocate more guns & training to Ukraine, support the Saudis in Yemen & even call for war with Iran from behind the curtain of double speak.

They're absolute chumps for anything hatin' on Obama, however, even when he exercises policy they basically advocate- interventionism.

Principles!
 
ivwshane

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,517
15,399
136
Well, considering the option to use military force in Libya was done via a unanimous vote in the UN, of which we are apart of and considering the alternatives, it seems rather silly to put the blame on Obama. But that's what righties do, especially in a circle jerk thread about Cheney.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748703818204576206373350344478

It's no surprise one of our resident right wing bitches (that would be you DSF), would chime in with some bullshit.
 
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