Check out this awesome neighborhood network plan using HPNA!

[JHeiderman]

Hey everyone,
Here is the plan. There are four of us here in the row of townhomes and we all play games. We were considering wireless ethernet to link ourselves all up but I came up with a better idea. We are going to be hooking it up in the next couple days but here is the plan. If this works I bet a whole lot of you would be interested.

One of the guys works for the phone company so he has access to the phoneline box outside. We are going to take a unused twisted pair of phoneline from each house and tie them together in the box. Then we are going to use HPNA cards to network all our homes together. I have a bunch of HPNA 1.0 cards so it will be kind of slow at first but I'm getting a hold of a couple HPNA 2.0 cards and then it will really rock. I'm not entirely sure if it will work but I can't see any reason why it wouldn't.

We'll be able to:
- LAN Gaming (Primary)
- Roger Wilco
- File Sharing
All of this is possible from any point without any centralized server or hub (except for two little wire nuts in the phonebox tying each side together)

Let me know what you guys think.

- J

 

[dinde]

i think u should just buy a wirless router

 

[DannyBoy]

Well it sounds pretty kewl.

Might sound even better if i knew what a HPNA card is and what exactly your doing in more detail

Dan

 

[JHeiderman]

HPNA is a networking standard but it transfers over a pair of copper wire (phoneline basicaly). The HPNA is good for over 10megabit/sec (I think Anand did a write up on it a while ago and it was closer to 13-14megabit). Anyway, 10megabit over a twisted pair is pretty cool in my book.

A wireless router would be expensive. Then we would all have to buy wireless cards and then we'd all have to hope that the signal strength was strong enough for all our homes. Not cost effective and if it doesn't work then we are all stuck with wireless networking equipment we can't use.

This is a simple and VERY cost effective way of networking up a bunch of homes using the pre-existing wires already in the house. Plus it allows us to hook our homes together via the phone company box outside where all the wires land. So basicaly, we are going to take 4 pairs of wires, 1 pair from each home. Then we are going to open up the box and tie (colors used for the sake of example) the 4 orange wires together and then tie together the 4 orange/white wires and we are done. Then all you need to do is add another jack where your computer is for the phoneline to go from the wall to the HPNA card in your PC.

Instant 10megabit network between all our homes without a hub. Plenty fast for any kind of lan gaming and for sharing files/etc.

- J

 

[darqice]

nice, let us know how it works when (if?) its all up and running

 

[fluxquantum]

sounds pretty cool. i hope it works out for you. all i have for a home network is a linksys router - wired of course

 

[mrzed]

Sounds cool until someone (besides your friend) who works for the telco finds out. Then your friend gets fired, and the whole lot of you have legal action taken against you.

Cheap for now. Real expensive if you get caught.

 

[MichaelD]

Originally posted by: mrzed
Sounds cool until someone (besides your friend) who works for the telco finds out. Then your friend gets fired, and the whole lot of you have legal action taken against you.

Cheap for now. Real expensive if you get caught.

Definitely a thought. Other than that, it sounds like a "good" idea! I don't know much about HPNA...it's a "POTS" standard, I assume?

 

[Davegod75]

if you live in rowhomes couldn't you just pass some cat5 through the shared walls?

 

[Spac3d]

Originally posted by: Davegod75
if you live in rowhomes couldn't you just pass some cat5 through the shared walls?

 

[Spac3d]

Wireless equipment is not that expensive if you buy the equipment during big sale weekends like this.

 

[SuperSix]

Using a different pair? You may have to use double wall plates. One plug - regular phone line, 2nd plug - special pair wired to correct pins on cable. For home PNA to work, the

Regular phone cable
1 -
2 - Main Phone line
3 - Main Phone line
4 -


Will the HomePNA cards work w/lines 1 and 4? THat's the "Line2" for 2-line phones. I don't think they will. I would use a dual-plug wall plate, running the top to your phone line, and the bottom to the HomePNA card.

 

[ChefJoe]

Right... awesome is not the word I'd use to describe tapping into the phone company's stuff and using it for your own purposes. If they ever tried to use that line, they'd come to investigate where the fault is. If all it is is two lines, why not just run some wire on the exterior of the building and hope that nobody notices the wire? Still, wireless is what you should be doing.


[EDIT] These are wires that were run by the phone company and not the owner of some complex? The likelihood of being noticed does change a bit depending on which it is. I still feel the problem is with things like this: friend works for telcom "so he has access to the phoneline box outside"

I read this as saying that your friend is going to use the key he has for company purposes, use it for his own personal project of "borrowing" a couple of wires from the ones the telcom installed. This equates to theft in their eyes and the law's.

The other thing that bugs me... is this networking standard meant to go so far? You may end up trying all this and then noticing that homes have about 80 ft of telephone wires in them while yours will be much longer runs.

Are these apartment complexes or owned homes?

 

[SuperSix]

Originally posted by: ChefJoe
Right... awesome is not the word I'd use to describe tapping into the phone company's stuff and using it for your own purposes. If they ever tried to use that line, they'd come to investigate where the fault is. If all it is is two lines, why not just run some wire on the exterior of the building and hope that nobody notices the wire? Still, wireless is what you should be doing.

He's using an unused pair of wires that are already in the house(s), what's so bad? Is he taking something from them? Stealing a service from them?

 

[JHeiderman]

Hey guys,
We definately share your conecern for the legalities of messing with the phone lines. Everyone's home is wired for multiple phone lines and we are just going to use some of those wires that are there for the extra lines. I agree that messing with the box is not 100% ok but my neighbor works for the phone company and he says it won't be a problem to just tie together the unused wires that are just hanging there in the box. That is his call.

This is kind of a proof of concept type thing. If it works then we have ourselves an easy network between our homes. If it doesn't then we run CAT-5 from house to house or something. Wireless could be an option down the road and I agree that wireless is probably the best way to do this if we didn't want to worry about using the phone lines.

The extra wires aren't being used. They are there for the home owner's use. Tying them together in the box won't affect anyone's phonelines unless they decide to get a second line for their house and if that's the case we just pull the pairs apart.

Thanks for your concerns.

- J

 

[sassy1]

Originally posted by: JHeiderman
This is a simple and VERY cost effective way of networking up a bunch of homes using the pre-existing wires already in the house.

I don't know about cost-effective... I used HPNA for networking for about a year but thanks to a couple of power surges through the phone lines I had to replace the equipment on three machines twice at various points I finally decided that wireless sounded pretty economical after all and went wireless with 802.11b+/802.11g.

Don't get me wrong, HPNA worked well during the time I had it installed, but hindsight is 20/20 after all If you have a bunch of the cards sitting around and have a few spares then more power to you, just watch the electrical storms!

Sassy

 

[Eug]

I have Ethernet, wireless 802.11b, and HomePNA.

For gaming, Ethernet and HPNA are almost identical (at least with only 2 computers). 802.11b adds a slight lag time which is OK, until somebody turns on the microwave oven or something. Also, wireless wouldn't work over multiple homes most likely. The range is not good enough unless you go very very high end $$$ Cisco equipment or something.

So in theory, HPNA would be great. OTOH, I wouldn't be messing about with the telco's box. Bad karma.

Running CAT-5 through the walls of neighbouring townhomes is also a bad idea. Can't be good for resale value I'm sure.

If you all had the same ISP on broadband (eg. cable) I wouldn't be surprised if you could get 30 ms pings. Not as good as directly wired LAN, but good enough.

 

[everman]

Too slow for file sharing, I'd rather go 100mbit/gigabit ethernet. But if you are that close, you can probably get away with an 802.11b card in each pc and a router in the middle.

 

[Eug]

Originally posted by: everman
Too slow for file sharing, I'd rather go 100mbit/gigabit ethernet. But if you are that close, you can probably get away with an 802.11b card in each pc and a router in the middle.

??? 802.11b is way slower than HomePNA. And anyways, like I said before the range of 802.11b is likely insufficient.

 

[Lord Evermore]

If one of your neighbors orders a second phone line, what makes you think your friend is going to hear about it in time to go disconnect your illegal wiring before another installer arrives and sees that someone has gotten into the box? No matter that your friend says it's okay to do it, they'll go after every one of you that is wired into it unless your friend can talk the installer into not reporting it or can talk that guy's supervisor into not reporting it and so on. Why risk it?

If on the other hand your friend can get into the box without entering the telco-responsibility portion, it's fine. The demarc box may have a part that customers can access (usually for testing the outside line without the internal wiring), but I doubt it's so accessible that you could legally get to the connections for the wiring. The wiring in the home is considered owned by and the responsibility of the customer, so if you can connect the wires without opening the box, then there's nothing illegal about it.

I wouldn't consider a 10Mbps HPNA network as "rocking" exactly, either.

You know you can create an ad-hoc wireless network? Wireless network without a central hub. Only the cost of the wireless cards, about the same as for HPNA cards.

 

[EeyoreX]

Personally I'd just think the CAT-5 solution is the best one. At least in my mind. No legally questionable actions, 10/100 ethernet is probably faster. And if I am going to physically cable each home together may as well use the CAT-5. Also, I'd think that most people don't have a friend at the phone company. Or maybe I am the only one

Just my opinion. I'd CAT-5 it, maybe wireless.

\Dan

 

[MadRat]

I'd rather see CAT5 than HPNA when you're talking the length of a neighborhood. The distance problem with false echoes and signal loss becomes a real turnoff to HPNA in this plan. You could run shielded CAT5 at 10MBit and span just over 300 feet from the central router/hub before the problems become real hurdle with ethernet. You won't get anywhere near 10MBit no matter which way you decide to go, but the CAT5 will offer lower latencies.

 

[Lord Evermore]

I was assuming these were all connected homes with a single phone box in a basement or something, not separate buildings. If they're separate buildings, you'd break all sorts of laws by touching the wiring, since any of the wires outside the buildings belong to the phone company. It may also be illegal for you to string cable between the homes between lots, although that may only apply if you cross a street (this is why not just anybody can go stick a wiring pole on the street to make a new ISP network).

 

[cmdrdredd]

Originally posted by: JHeiderman
Hey guys,
We definately share your conecern for the legalities of messing with the phone lines. Everyone's home is wired for multiple phone lines and we are just going to use some of those wires that are there for the extra lines. I agree that messing with the box is not 100% ok but my neighbor works for the phone company and he says it won't be a problem to just tie together the unused wires that are just hanging there in the box. That is his call.

This is kind of a proof of concept type thing. If it works then we have ourselves an easy network between our homes. If it doesn't then we run CAT-5 from house to house or something. Wireless could be an option down the road and I agree that wireless is probably the best way to do this if we didn't want to worry about using the phone lines.

The extra wires aren't being used. They are there for the home owner's use. Tying them together in the box won't affect anyone's phonelines unless they decide to get a second line for their house and if that's the case we just pull the pairs apart.

Thanks for your concerns.

- J

That's exactly the problem...the Phone Company will want you to pay for the lines you're using. Whether or not your friend works for them he pays a pone bill too and the company will want to cash in on your usage of their property. Remember you lease the lines not buy them.

 

[cmdrdredd]

Originally posted by: Eug
I have Ethernet, wireless 802.11b, and HomePNA.

For gaming, Ethernet and HPNA are almost identical (at least with only 2 computers). 802.11b adds a slight lag time which is OK, until somebody turns on the microwave oven or something. Also, wireless wouldn't work over multiple homes most likely. The range is not good enough unless you go very very high end $$$ Cisco equipment or something.

So in theory, HPNA would be great. OTOH, I wouldn't be messing about with the telco's box. Bad karma.

Running CAT-5 through the walls of neighbouring townhomes is also a bad idea. Can't be good for resale value I'm sure.

If you all had the same ISP on broadband (eg. cable) I wouldn't be surprised if you could get 30 ms pings. Not as good as directly wired LAN, but good enough.

You could simply remove the wires freom your home and a smple wall plate will look like nothing more than an extra phone jack. You can even go 2 ways and have a 2 connector plate with 1 phone and 1 data (cat5) and then you can say that it is a computer terminal and maybe the people will be happy that they don't have to install it themselves if say they wanted to have an office in that room.