Chavez on the warpath - Venezuela seems to be girding for battle with Colombia

[Red Dawn]

The democratic process was followed by their laws of the land. Just because you or Obama dont like it doesnt make you right. Obama tried to mingle in the democratic process of another nation and he was on the wrong side.

No he wasn't and the results show it.

BTW your type should be the last commenting about respecting the laws of the land for other countries.

 

[Red Dawn]

I'm making a contribution as well! Those virtual keyboards are working out great!

Yeah you should get one.

 

[EagleKeeper]

The president attempted to arrange an referendum on should he have an additional term(s) after being advised that it was illegal.

Their Courts determined that to continue to push for such a referendum was a violation of THEIR constitution and ordered him removed from office for violation of THEIR constitution.

The other OAS states have different constitutions and/or wanted to ignore the fact that Honduras was not going to allow a potential crack in their system.

The fact that a sitting president was removed from office and the country per the constitution of that country could set a prescient that the OAS did not want to see started.

How he was removed was an issue, but the fact that he was removed legally should not be in question.

No, Im not going to spend another hour re-writing a long detailed summary of the facts because you choose to ignore the several previous times. You can keep ignoring them each time I repeat them.

The facts do not change - it is the way you choose to interpret such based on the results that you desire

 

[EagleKeeper]

No he wasn't and the results show it.

BTW your type should be the last commenting about respecting the laws of the land for other countries.

for 2-3 months there was a lot of hot air coming out of the White House and Foggy bottom about how Honduras should not have done what they did.

They wanted the previous President back in power, to hell with the Honduras legal system (as decided by THEIR courts according to THEIR constitution).

 

[Craig234]

The facts do not change -[/qiuote]

Go read the old thread if you are so insistent you keep plsting to me.

 

[Craig234]

i'm sending a gift to the sony developers... they are my new heroes... first people who could get y'all to give up on the diatribes...

countries are groups of people and the managers of the countries are people... they all make decisions on what's 'good', and, if they have the might to do so, end up imposing it on lesser countries... trying to make japan look like nice guys is just as dumb as trying to make the us look like bad guys... and visa-versa...

If you are as bankrupt as your posts you will send them less than a nickel.

You're an idiot for reading anyone saying Japan were the 'nice guys'.

 

[PJABBER]

You are lying. Drop it. When someone chooses not to play wiith you because you can't be bothered to pay attention the first several times you are not ree to lie to try to bait. Go read the old threads.

You posted your opinion. Stop posting to me after I say what I said.

No one benefits if you are obnoxious and need to be exposed yet again.

Yeah, stop it! You are rebutting the revisionist Obama sycophants with facts and that is sooooo annoying!

 

[Craig234]

The democratic process was followed by their laws of the land. Just because you or Obama dont like it doesnt make you right. Obama tried to mingle in the democratic process of another nation and he was on the wrong side.

Quote from their constittion the impeachment process.r admit you are talking about things you don't know.

 

[Craig234]

Yeah, stop it! You are rebutting the revisionist Obama sycophants with facts and that is sooooo annoying!

You're an idiot, which might be a standard into to any post to you. If you have 'facts', answer what I poseted to genx: what is the process for impeachment in the Honduran constitution? Crickets.

 

[PJABBER]

You're an idiot, which might be a standard into to any post to you. If you have 'facts', answer what I poseted to genx: what is the process for impeachment in the Honduran constitution? Crickets.

Impeachment is an American thing.

http://www.honduras.net/honduras_constitution2.html

The Honduran Constitution reads:

Chapter VI, Article 237: The presidential term is four years... (No right to succeed himself.)

Article 239 — No citizen that has already served as head of the Executive Branch can be President or Vice-President.

Whoever violates this law or proposes its reform, as well as those that support such violation directly or indirectly, will immediately cease in their functions and will be unable to hold any public office for a period of 10 years.

Chapter 10, Article 272:

The Armed Forces of Honduras are ... established to defend the territorial integrity and sovereignty of the Republic, keep the peace, public order and the rule of the Constitution, the principles of free suffrage and alternation in the presidency of the Republic.

Claro?

Before you claim that there are impeachment procedures in the primary document, be aware that, under Honduran Constitutional law, Article 239 holds precedence and by immediately rendering Zelaya an ordinary citizen he was not privileged to go through any impeachment whatsoever - he was automatically not El Presidente.

Though the legislature and the Supreme Court validated this, they actually did not have to. It is the responsibility of the military to do what is necessary to protect the country and specifically the principle of "alternation." The power stemming from a history of other attempts to seek the tile "El Presidente For Life."

Can't stay and play, my plane awaits!

 

[Red Dawn]

for 2-3 months there was a lot of hot air coming out of the White House and Foggy bottom about how Honduras should not have done what they did.

They wanted the previous President back in power, to hell with the Honduras legal system (as decided by THEIR courts according to THEIR constitution).

They wanted him back in power so much that they enacted sanctions and withdrew all foriegn aid..wait they didn't. What they did was ensure that that there was no power grab and that the next election cycle went forth by putting those responsible for ousting Zeyela on notice. Apt and nimble diplomacy, like I said something you "American Century" advocates aren't use too.

 

[EagleKeeper]

You're an idiot, which might be a standard into to any post to you. If you have 'facts', answer what I poseted to genx: what is the process for impeachment in the Honduran constitution? Crickets.

Impeachment is an American thing.

http://www.honduras.net/honduras_constitution2.html

The Honduran Constitution reads:

Chapter VI, Article 237: The presidential term is four years... (No right to succeed himself.)

Article 239 — No citizen that has already served as head of the Executive Branch can be President or Vice-President.

Whoever violates this law or proposes its reform, as well as those that support such violation directly or indirectly, will immediately cease in their functions and will be unable to hold any public office for a period of 10 years.

Chapter 10, Article 272:

The Armed Forces of Honduras are ... established to defend the territorial integrity and sovereignty of the Republic, keep the peace, public order and the rule of the Constitution, the principles of free suffrage and alternation in the presidency of the Republic.

Claro?

Before you claim that there are impeachment procedures in the primary document, be aware that, under Honduran Constitutional law, Article 239 holds precedence and by immediately rendering Zelaya an ordinary citizen he was not privileged to go through any impeachment whatsoever - he was automatically not Presidente.

Though the legislature and the Supreme Court validated this, they actually did not have to. It is the responsibility of the military to do what is necessary to protect the country and specifically the principle of "alternation." The power stemming from a history of other attempts to seek the tile "El Presidente For Life."

Can't stay and play, my plane awaits!

You are not presenting what he wants to believe. therefore such information is not accurate.

Craig does not consider the establishment of a referendum by the President to be a violation of Article 239. Nor should they cease doing their functions.

As I stated previously, if the facts do not mesh with his desired interpretation, then the facts must be wrong and any the challenge his interpretation.

This is his standard MO.

Just like the US forced Japan into war; ignoring what Japan was doing to Asia for many years

 

[Craig234]

Impeachment is an American thing.

http://www.honduras.net/honduras_constitution2.html

The Honduran Constitution reads:

Chapter VI, Article 237: The presidential term is four years... (No right to succeed himself.)

Article 239 ? No citizen that has already served as head of the Executive Branch can be President or Vice-President.

Whoever violates this law or proposes its reform, as well as those that support such violation directly or indirectly, will immediately cease in their functions and will be unable to hold any public office for a period of 10 years.

Chapter 10, Article 272:

The Armed Forces of Honduras are ... established to defend the territorial integrity and sovereignty of the Republic, keep the peace, public order and the rule of the Constitution, the principles of free suffrage and alternation in the presidency of the Republic.

Claro?

Before you claim that there are impeachment procedures in the primary document, be aware that, under Honduran Constitutional law, Article 239 holds precedence and by immediately rendering Zelaya an ordinary citizen he was not privileged to go through any impeachment whatsoever - he was automatically not El Presidente.

Though the legislature and the Supreme Court validated this, they actually did not have to. It is the responsibility of the military to do what is necessary to protect the country and specifically the principle of "alternation." The power stemming from a history of other attempts to seek the tile "El Presidente For Life."

Can't stay and play, my plane awaits!

Nowhere did you show me any process in the constitution for the removal of the President from office.

Our constitution's process is for the House to charge him with crimes and the Senate to try him. What is Honduras' constitiutional process you claim was followed so correctly?

And what offense did he even commit for that matter? He was not running or trying to run for a second term. He was asking public opinion which is not listed as grounds for removal.

What actually makes more sens is that the Honduras has a pretty corrupt government who did not like his turn to populism and went after him simple out of corrupt protecting of their own interests.

The Spreme Court ruled that he could not ask the public their opinion. Maybe that was a wrong decision. But when the President refuses to follow a Supreme Court ruling, you have a constitutional crisis. Sometimes a President is justified to do that. If the right-wing Supreme Court ruled that Obama isn't President because of the birth certificate issue, clearly out of partisanship, Obama would be right to protect the people's right to elect him president and refuse to respect their ruling, and leave it to Congress to impeach.

But I think Zalaya was wrong here to ignore the ruling - nothing justified his creating the crisis that I see. But it's one thing for him to make that mistake and another for the millitary to take him at gunpoint and exile him, even if the legislature said ok in what apparently was nothing more than an opinion vote, not any legal process. I'm sympathetic to the idea of looking at whether his ignoring of that ruling was grounds for removal - it's the process issue that's a problem.

 

[werepossum]

They wanted him back in power so much that they enacted sanctions and withdrew all foriegn aid..wait they didn't. What they did was ensure that that there was no power grab and that the next election cycle went forth by putting those responsible for ousting Zeyela on notice. Apt and nimble diplomacy, like I said something you "American Century" advocates aren't use too.

I suppose it's a matter of faith. People with little faith in Obama assume that he and his agents meant what they said, that they wanted Zelaya back in power. (They did cut off aid to Honduras, after all. People like you assume that Obama et al were lying (sorry, diplomacing) out their collective ass when they said that they wanted Zelaya back in power, that what they REALLY wanted was Zelaya out of power. I suppose we'll all have to wonder whether Obama is truly an incompetent Marxist who got schooled or a dishonest super diplomat who played the world like an evil genius playing Gotham City, since none of us can really know for sure.

 

[Red Dawn]

I suppose it's a matter of faith. People with little faith in Obama assume that he and his agents meant what they said, that they wanted Zelaya back in power. (They did cut off aid to Honduras, after all. People like you assume that Obama et al were lying (sorry, diplomacing) out their collective ass when they said that they wanted Zelaya back in power, that what they REALLY wanted was Zelaya out of power. I suppose we'll all have to wonder whether Obama is truly an incompetent Marxist who got schooled or a dishonest super diplomat who played the world like an evil genius playing Gotham City, since none of us can really know for sure.

More like a leader who took advice from those in the know whom he employs as advisors and acted in the best interest of our country.

Our reputation in that area of world is so sullied with our numerous behind the scenes support of tin pot dictators over throwing democratically leaders that supporting those Honduran Strongmen and Military leaders whisking another elected leader out of the country in the middle of the night would have been a diplomatic nightmare for us.

 

[Craig234]

Does anyone have info on the new President elected two weeks ago? I saw he's from the opposition party, but not what his poiitics are.

 

[PJABBER]

Nowhere did you show me any process in the constitution for the removal of the President from office.

Our constitution's process is for the House to charge him with crimes and the Senate to try him. What is Honduras' constitiutional process you claim was followed so correctly?

And what offense did he even commit for that matter? He was not running or trying to run for a second term. He was asking public opinion which is not listed as grounds for removal.

What actually makes more sens is that the Honduras has a pretty corrupt government who did not like his turn to populism and went after him simple out of corrupt protecting of their own interests.

Are ye illiterate, mon?

Read the translation or read the Spanish original -

ANY attempt to continue in office or change the Constitution to permit such a thing, be it by proposal, proposed referendum, coup d'etat, conspiracy, advocacy et al will result in the immediate termination of El Presidente's term in office.

Sayonara, good buddy! And, by the way, as your loyal followers are rioting in the streets and you just can't STFU about how great Chavez rule would here in our little country and thereby cannot be trusted to support the tenets of OUR Constitution, here is a one way outta outta here via military carrier pigeon. Good riddance, dirtbag!

Ring Ring! Presidente Obama here! I just got a call from PFL Chavez and US Ambassador DingDong saying they are a might upset at what you Honduras guys are doing. It is entirely the opposite of what the Bolivarian movement is all about. As a former community organizer, I want to let you know that I am going to have some serious consequences for you unless you pay us some hush money. Ooopsy, I mean restore my good buddy Zelaya back so that we can be buddies, officially. Later, loosers!

Ring, Ring! El Presidente Obama here. That call I made a couple of months ago, forget about that, OK?

Ring, Ring! El Presidente, I mean, President Obama here. Madge, please call the WP, the NYT, the HP and the DK and tell them I just won a brilliant diplomatic victory in Honduras. Yeah, I don't know where it is either, but put the story on my teleprompter, too, just in case someone asks, hmmmmk?

Ring Ring Ring! DK callin RD and the big C! guess what? A great victory is ours!

 

[Red Dawn]

Are ye illiterate, mon?

Read the translation or read the Spanish original -

ANY attempt to continue in office or change the Constitution to permit such a thing, be it by proposal, proposed referendum, coup d'etat, conspiracy, advocacy et al will result in the immediate termination of El Presidente's term in office.

Sayonara, good buddy! And, by the way, as your loyal followers are rioting in the streets and you just can't STFU about how great Chavez rule would here in our little country and thereby cannot be trusted to support the tenets of OUR Constitution, here is a one way outta outta here via military carrier pigeon. Good riddance, dirtbag!

Ring Ring! Presidente Obama here! I just got a call from PFL Chavez and US Ambassador DingDong saying they are a might upset at what you Honduras guys are doing. It is entirely the opposite of what the Bolivarian movement is all about. As a former community organizer, I want to let you know that I am going to have some serious consequences for you unless you pay us some hush money. Ooopsy, I mean restore my good buddy Zelaya back so that we can be buddies, officially. Later, loosers!

Ring, Ring! El Presidente Obama here. That call I made a couple of months ago, forget about that, OK?

Ring, Ring! El Presidente, I mean, President Obama here. Madge, please call the WP, the NYT, the HP and the DK and tell them I just won a brilliant diplomatic victory in Honduras. Yeah, I don't know where it is either, but put the story on my teleprompter, too, just in case someone asks, hmmmmk?

Ring Ring Ring! DK callin RD and the big C! guess what? A great victory is ours!

Like I said, douche bags like you are so use to clumsy diplomacy that when you see it done correctly you don't recognize it.

 

[werepossum]

I like Red's thinking. Test, weaken, profit.

That's what Reagan did with Iran Iraq to keep them out of our hair.

Um, Iraq had no American equipment except for some M108/M109 SPGs captured from the Iranians; they got only some satellite intel from us. Iran had lots of American equipment from the Shah's rule, but was embargoed from spare parts or replacement orders.

 

[Craig234]

Are ye illiterate, mon?

No, but you are.

Read the translation or read the Spanish original -

ANY attempt to continue in office or change the Constitution to permit such a thing, be it by proposal, proposed referendum, coup d'etat, conspiracy, advocacy et al will result in the immediate termination of El Presidente's term in office.

And what's the process for determining he did that in the constitution? If one random citizen announces he thinks the President did it, is he out? If the congress votes he did is he out? If the Supreme Court rules he did it is he out? If the head of the military decides he did it is he out? What's the constitutional process for determining if he did that? What's the process for removing him from office if he did?

Crickets.

And, he didn't do anything in your list. This was not a referundum to give him an extra term. It was asking for opinion, and nothing in the constitution says that's grounds for removal.

No matter what people said in the referendum, he still had one term. If he then tried to change the rules to get another term THEN he would have committed a crime. He did not do that.

Sayonara, good buddy! And, by the way, as your loyal followers are rioting in the streets and you just can't STFU about how great Chavez rule would here in our little country and thereby cannot be trusted to support the tenets of OUR Constitution, here is a one way outta outta here via military carrier pigeon. Good riddance, dirtbag!

PJabber doesn't like your views so yuou are removed without any contitutional process.

Ring Ring! Presidente Obama here! I just got a call from PFL Chavez and US Ambassador DingDong saying they are a might upset at what you Honduras guys are doing. It is entirely the opposite of what the Bolivarian movement is all about. As a former community organizer, I want to let you know that I am going to have some serious consequences for you unless you pay us some hush money. Ooopsy, I mean restore my good buddy Zelaya back so that we can be buddies, officially. Later, loosers!

Ring, Ring! El Presidente Obama here. That call I made a couple of months ago, forget about that, OK?

Ring, Ring! El Presidente, I mean, President Obama here. Madge, please call the WP, the NYT, the HP and the DK and tell them I just won a brilliant diplomatic victory in Honduras. Yeah, I don't know where it is either, but put the story on my teleprompter, too, just in case someone asks, hmmmmk?

Ring Ring Ring! DK callin RD and the big C! guess what? A great victory is ours!

Idiocy.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Impeachment is an American thing.

http://www.honduras.net/honduras_constitution2.html

The Honduran Constitution reads:

Chapter VI, Article 237: The presidential term is four years... (No right to succeed himself.)

Article 239 ? No citizen that has already served as head of the Executive Branch can be President or Vice-President.

Whoever violates this law or proposes its reform, as well as those that support such violation directly or indirectly, will immediately cease in their functions and will be unable to hold any public office for a period of 10 years.

Chapter 10, Article 272:

The Armed Forces of Honduras are ... established to defend the territorial integrity and sovereignty of the Republic, keep the peace, public order and the rule of the Constitution, the principles of free suffrage and alternation in the presidency of the Republic.

Claro?

Before you claim that there are impeachment procedures in the primary document, be aware that, under Honduran Constitutional law, Article 239 holds precedence and by immediately rendering Zelaya an ordinary citizen he was not privileged to go through any impeachment whatsoever - he was automatically not El Presidente.

Though the legislature and the Supreme Court validated this, they actually did not have to. It is the responsibility of the military to do what is necessary to protect the country and specifically the principle of "alternation." The power stemming from a history of other attempts to seek the tile "El Presidente For Life."

Can't stay and play, my plane awaits!

Nowhere did you show me any process in the constitution for the removal of the President from office.

Our constitution's process is for the House to charge him with crimes and the Senate to try him. What is Honduras' constitutional process you claim was followed so correctly?

And what offense did he even commit for that matter? He was not running or trying to run for a second term. He was asking public opinion which is not listed as grounds for removal.

What actually makes more sens is that the Honduras has a pretty corrupt government who did not like his turn to populism and went after him simple out of corrupt protecting of their own interests.

The Supreme Court ruled that he could not ask the public their opinion. Maybe that was a wrong decision. But when the President refuses to follow a Supreme Court ruling, you have a constitutional crisis. Sometimes a President is justified to do that. If the right-wing Supreme Court ruled that Obama isn't President because of the birth certificate issue, clearly out of partisanship, Obama would be right to protect the people's right to elect him president and refuse to respect their ruling, and leave it to Congress to impeach.

But I think Zalaya was wrong here to ignore the ruling - nothing justified his creating the crisis that I see. But it's one thing for him to make that mistake and another for the military to take him at gunpoint and exile him, even if the legislature said ok in what apparently was nothing more than an opinion vote, not any legal process. I'm sympathetic to the idea of looking at whether his ignoring of that ruling was grounds for removal - it's the process issue that's a problem.

Do you have a problem reading or comprehending. Or do you still choose to ignore what is in front of you. Or do you have a browser that interfaces with your mind?

Nowhere did you show me any process in the constitution for the removal of the President from office.

Whoever violates this law or proposes its reform, as well as those that support such violation directly or indirectly, will immediately cease in their functions and will be unable to hold any public office for a period of 10 years.

What does cease their functions mean.

And what offense did he even commit for that matter? He was not running or trying to run for a second term. He was asking public opinion which is not listed as grounds for removal.

Whoever violates this law or proposes its reform, as well as those that support such violation directly or indirectly

He was asking the public should the term limit be removed to allow for more than one term.
That is proposing a reform.
Which for a sitting official is against their constitution.

Their military's job is to protect the constitution. That apparently required removing him from office because he refused to do so voluntarily.

Look as it as if Bush or Clinton refused to leave office because they did not like the policies of their successor. Whose responsibility is it to ensure that they would be kicked out of the White House.

Constitutions expects that the laws of the land to be followed and they have scenarios on what to do if they are not followed. However, they do not cover all scenarios. People that want to violate those laws are able to find grey areas to tread in to accomplish their desires. It is up to the government and the enforcement arm of it, to nip such activities before they develop into a serious crisis.

 

[squirrel dog]

That t72 is a bad mofo .

 

[cubeless]

That t72 is a bad mofo .

maybe cnn will get embedded with them and hook up some cameras so we can get some shots from the barrel, ala drone pics... be a shame to waste a good incursion on some low res sa channel...