Chavez consolidates control over military, seeks end to term limits

michaels

Banned
Nov 30, 2005
4,329
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0
http://washingtontimes.com/art...FOREIGN/108060029/1001

Thhis guy never ceases to amaze me, but more amazing is his American sack riders who support him.
SANTA CRUZ, Bolivia ? Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez has moved to tighten his control over his nation's armed forces, which he has equipped with the most powerful arsenal in the region, according to military officials and defense analysts.

In a command reshuffle last month, Mr. Chavez replaced his defense minister, Gen. Raul Baduel, with Gen. Gustavo Rangel, who previously commanded a 100,000-strong militia established by Mr. Chavez to protect his regime and resist any U.S. invasion.

Gen. Baduel had criticized Mr. Chavez's rule as unnecessarily authoritarian. "A socialist regime is not incompatible with a democratic system of checks and balances and division of powers. We must separate ourselves from Marxist orthodoxy," he said in a farewell speech.

The outgoing minister had been credited with saving Mr. Chavez's government in 2002 when, as commander of an elite armored unit, he refused to support other senior officers who briefly toppled the government.

Another recently retired general, Muller Rojas, believes Gen. Baduel's resignation signals a purge of the high command, which he says has become "highly politicized and partisan."

The new defense chief, Gen. Rangel, underwent military instruction in Cuba and is expected to merge the regular army with politically directed militias armed with new AK-103 rifles purchased from Russia.

"By naming Rangel, Chavez imposes his military thesis on the high command. The president conceives of a tactical doctrine combining professional armed forces and militias, which are the basis of the asymmetrical warfare strategy of the people in arms," said Venezuelan defense analyst Alberto Garrido.

Addressing a group of graduating cadets last month, Mr. Chavez told them: "We are taking the model of the war of resistance, which is the people with the soldiers of our armed forces preparing for the defense of the nation." The newly minted officers were required to swear to the slogan "Socialism or death" at the commencement ceremony.

Military officials in several South American countries have expressed concern about the unmatched air power Mr. Chavez has acquired with a new fleet of 24 Sukhoi Su-30s purchased in a $3.5 billion arms deal with Russia last year.

According to a Colombian air force general, the high performance Sukhois are technologically superior to any other combat aircraft in Latin America.

An estimated flight range of 1,600 miles puts the Sukhoi within striking range of almost every country in the hemisphere, reaching as far north as Washington.

With a potential payload of 10 tons, it can launch Russian-made Brahmos cruise missiles, which are equivalent to the U.S. Tomahawk.

According to a European diplomat in Caracas, Venezuelan air commanders have said that they need the Sukhois to "defend" the Panama Canal ? even though the canal is owned and operated by Panama.

Russia sold the Sukhois to Venezuela with a "full suite" of over-the-horizon and anti-radar capabilities, allowing the aircraft to conduct sophisticated air battles. The only country in South America capable of countering them is Chile, which recently bought 12 American F-16 Falcons.

In a trip to Russia last month, Mr. Chavez reportedly negotiated new deals for nine 636 and 677E Amur-class diesel-powered submarines, which also carry medium-range missiles. The purchase gives Mr. Chavez the region's largest navy.

Mr. Chavez has said Venezuela needs the submarines to protect offshore oil installations and counter any U.S. blockade.

Gen. Baduel has said Venezuela is also involved in arms projects with Iran, including the joint development of remote-controlled drone aircraft for "armed reconnaissance."

Venezuela's enhanced power projection has encouraged several countries to establish joint training and exchange agreements with Caracas, including Bolivia, Ecuador and Argentina, according to Mario Baizan, an Argentine former security official who now runs a defense think tank in Buenos Aires.

Officials in Peru, Colombia and Mexico, on the other hand, have accused Mr. Chavez of meddling "aggressively" in their affairs.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6932605.stm
Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez has confirmed that he will try to change the law to allow him to remain in power indefinitely.

Under the current constitution, Mr Chavez will have to leave office at the end of his term in 2012.

But he says he wants to remain in power for as long as Venezuelans continue to support him.

The constitution is under review and Mr Chavez is expected to make changes to cement in law his socialist revolution.

'People decide'

The details have so far been kept under wraps, but Mr Chavez has confirmed what many people expected - that he will be seeking to remain in power continuously.

"It will be the people who make the final decision about how long I stay," he said on his weekly TV show Hello President.

He said this is something that happens in many European and Asian countries and that it should not be seen as a threat.

But opponents disagree. They are concerned that this could lead to abuse of power.

The new constitution will be put before parliament within the next 10 days.

Later this year, there will be a referendum allowing Venezuelans to decide whether to accept the changes.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
49,558
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According to a European diplomat in Caracas, Venezuelan air commanders have said that they need the Sukhois to "defend" the Panama Canal ? even though the canal is owned and operated by Panama

lol....replace "defend" with "threaten" and I think you come close to the actual intent
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
What's amusing is that the same people who say that Chavez is wrong for doing this in Venezuela have no problem with Bush doing it here.

Wiretaps for our safety---good
Private Contractors (mercenaries) with no oversight and massive military hardware and money----good
Ending our adherence to the Geneva Conventions----good
Ending Posse Comitatus----good
Religion infecting the govnerment (replace with Socialism in regards to Ven.)---good
Reducing our rights in several ways----good


Why is it all good, because it's good for *them* just like Chavez. Yet, rubberstampers, just like the poor being suckered in Ven., fall for it because they fail to realize how short-sighted their thinking is.

So go ahead Gen, NonProfJohn, and the rest of you fools. You are doing nothing but being hypocrites and it's fricking pathetic.
 

JD50

Lifer
Sep 4, 2005
11,827
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Originally posted by: LegendKiller
What's amusing is that the same people who say that Chavez is wrong for doing this in Venezuela have no problem with Bush doing it here.

I absolutely have a problem with Bush trying to end term limits. Wait, that hasn't happend.....:confused:
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
49,558
40,078
136
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
What's amusing is that the same people who say that Chavez is wrong for doing this in Venezuela have no problem with Bush doing it here.

I don't see anyone calling for the repeal of the 22nd Amendment.
 

Mxylplyx

Diamond Member
Mar 21, 2007
4,197
101
106
Havent all the Chavez cheerleaders been banned? These threads are no fun without them.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
What's amusing is that the same people who say that Chavez is wrong for doing this in Venezuela have no problem with Bush doing it here.

I absolutely have a problem with Bush trying to end term limits. Wait, that hasn't happend.....:confused:

Wait, did Chavez start there?

Oh yeah, this comes back to our conversation about the Miami cops. Short-sighted buffoons fail to see the actions of getting to the goal, from the goal itself. What is happening there, as with here, is the means to an end. Idiots can't differentiate between the two because they lack the mental fortitude and intellectual honesty to admit they were too myopic.

In Ven. Chavez is using the poorly educated and economically deprived as the tools by which to manipulate the government. Here it's the RINOs and the religious. Same tool, different type. One is a spade, the other is a regular shovel, both dig dirt.

The sad thing is, you're sitting there calling the spade a shovel without realizing you're the same thing.



 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: K1052
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
What's amusing is that the same people who say that Chavez is wrong for doing this in Venezuela have no problem with Bush doing it here.

I don't see anyone calling for the repeal of the 22nd Amendment.


How long has Chavez been undermining their democracy?
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
49,558
40,078
136
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: K1052
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
What's amusing is that the same people who say that Chavez is wrong for doing this in Venezuela have no problem with Bush doing it here.

I don't see anyone calling for the repeal of the 22nd Amendment.


How long has Chavez been undermining their democracy?

He had a couple year head start on our dimwitted President but used even less subtle methods (if thats possible). Though it is an absolute certainty that Bush will be gone at the end of his term and there will probably be a Democrat in the White House next term.
 

1prophet

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
5,313
534
126
Gen. Baduel had criticized Mr. Chavez's rule as unnecessarily authoritarian. "A socialist regime is not incompatible with a democratic system of checks and balances and division of powers. We must separate ourselves from Marxist orthodoxy," he said in a farewell speech
The outgoing minister had been credited with saving Mr. Chavez's government in 2002 when, as commander of an elite armored unit, he refused to support other senior officers who briefly toppled the government.

Another recently retired general, Muller Rojas, believes Gen. Baduel's resignation signals a purge of the high command, which he says has become "highly politicized and partisan."


Well at least they reward loyalty there.:D
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: K1052
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: K1052
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
What's amusing is that the same people who say that Chavez is wrong for doing this in Venezuela have no problem with Bush doing it here.

I don't see anyone calling for the repeal of the 22nd Amendment.


How long has Chavez been undermining their democracy?

He had a couple year head start on our dimwitted President but used even less subtle methods (if thats possible). Though it is an absolute certainty that Bush will be gone at the end of his term and there will probably be a Democrat in the White House next term.


He's definitely less elegant and subtle with his techniques, but our government has been almost as effective with the use of its time.

I think that one thing that is really, truly, amazing to me is how gullible people are. It never ends, but what's even more amazing is that they will call others gullible yet fail to see it in themselves. These people are usually less educated or self-deceiving and fall victim to those who desire to control them. In most cases, they do not know history.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Big_Lie

With Hitler it was the Jews
With Stalin it was the Capitalists
With Mao and others it was the Capitalists and the Japanese
With Castro it was America and the Capitalists
With McCarthy and others it was the Red Scare
With Chavez it has been the Capitalists, America, the rich of his coutnry, and the oil companies
With Bush, it has been the Terrorists


All the same thing. All manipulations. All Big Lies intent on keeping you fearful and them powerful. Yet, somehow, people like JD50 and others can point out this flaw in others yet refuse to see it in themselves. They clamor to the Big Lie like bees to honey, mostly looking for protection from the objects of the Big Lie yet failing to see they are nothing but tools.
 

ayabe

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2005
7,449
0
0
Originally posted by: Mxylplyx
Havent all the Chavez cheerleaders been banned? These threads are no fun without them.

Appears so.

Perhaps all of us "extreme" liberals aren't quite that extreme.

The 20th century taught most of us an important lesson, totalitarianism isn't a left/right issue it can arise from any direction.
 

JD50

Lifer
Sep 4, 2005
11,827
2,590
136
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
What's amusing is that the same people who say that Chavez is wrong for doing this in Venezuela have no problem with Bush doing it here.

I absolutely have a problem with Bush trying to end term limits. Wait, that hasn't happend.....:confused:

Wait, did Chavez start there?

Oh yeah, this comes back to our conversation about the Miami cops. Short-sighted buffoons fail to see the actions of getting to the goal, from the goal itself. What is happening there, as with here, is the means to an end. Idiots can't differentiate between the two because they lack the mental fortitude and intellectual honesty to admit they were too myopic.

In Ven. Chavez is using the poorly educated and economically deprived as the tools by which to manipulate the government. Here it's the RINOs and the religious. Same tool, different type. One is a spade, the other is a regular shovel, both dig dirt.

The sad thing is, you're sitting there calling the spade a shovel without realizing you're the same thing.

You might want to reread what you wrote. You said, "have no problem with Bush doing it here". You did not say that they wouldn't have a problem IF Bush did it here, you said that they don't have a problem with Bush doing it here. Bush is not trying to end term limits. You said that he was. If thats not what you meant then you should choose your words more carefully, because I seriously doubt anyone would support bush trying to end term limits.

You constantly accuse those of us that believe that terrorism is a problem of fear mongering, when terrorism is real and happening. Now you are trying to scare everyone into believing that Bush is about to push for an end to term limits, when you have absolutely no proof of that. If you do, I'd love to see it.

I don't like Bush and I'm not defending him, but you making shit up is just silly. You just pulled a McOwen, congrats!

 

JD50

Lifer
Sep 4, 2005
11,827
2,590
136
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: K1052
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: K1052
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
What's amusing is that the same people who say that Chavez is wrong for doing this in Venezuela have no problem with Bush doing it here.

I don't see anyone calling for the repeal of the 22nd Amendment.


How long has Chavez been undermining their democracy?

He had a couple year head start on our dimwitted President but used even less subtle methods (if thats possible). Though it is an absolute certainty that Bush will be gone at the end of his term and there will probably be a Democrat in the White House next term.


He's definitely less elegant and subtle with his techniques, but our government has been almost as effective with the use of its time.

I think that one thing that is really, truly, amazing to me is how gullible people are. It never ends, but what's even more amazing is that they will call others gullible yet fail to see it in themselves. These people are usually less educated or self-deceiving and fall victim to those who desire to control them. In most cases, they do not know history.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Big_Lie

With Hitler it was the Jews
With Stalin it was the Capitalists
With Mao and others it was the Capitalists and the Japanese
With Castro it was America and the Capitalists
With McCarthy and others it was the Red Scare
With Chavez it has been the Capitalists, America, the rich of his coutnry, and the oil companies
With Bush, it has been the Terrorists


All the same thing. All manipulations. All Big Lies intent on keeping you fearful and them powerful. Yet, somehow, people like JD50 and others can point out this flaw in others yet refuse to see it in themselves. They clamor to the Big Lie like bees to honey, mostly looking for protection from the objects of the Big Lie yet failing to see they are nothing but tools.


Yes, I am falling for "the big lie" while you are running around saying that Bush is trying to extend term limits and us conservatives are cheering him on. :roll:

BTW, I don't agree with the patriot act and I don't agree with all the BS airport security, but I'm not naive enough to think that terrorism isn't a threat. It doesn't warrant our freedoms being taken away, but it is something that we should take seriously. Take your strawman somewhere else, you obviously ASSumed too much about me.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
49,558
40,078
136
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: K1052
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: K1052
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
What's amusing is that the same people who say that Chavez is wrong for doing this in Venezuela have no problem with Bush doing it here.

I don't see anyone calling for the repeal of the 22nd Amendment.


How long has Chavez been undermining their democracy?

He had a couple year head start on our dimwitted President but used even less subtle methods (if thats possible). Though it is an absolute certainty that Bush will be gone at the end of his term and there will probably be a Democrat in the White House next term.


He's definitely less elegant and subtle with his techniques, but our government has been almost as effective with the use of its time.

I think that one thing that is really, truly, amazing to me is how gullible people are. It never ends, but what's even more amazing is that they will call others gullible yet fail to see it in themselves. These people are usually less educated or self-deceiving and fall victim to those who desire to control them. In most cases, they do not know history.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Big_Lie

With Hitler it was the Jews
With Stalin it was the Capitalists
With Mao and others it was the Capitalists and the Japanese
With Castro it was America and the Capitalists
With McCarthy and others it was the Red Scare
With Chavez it has been the Capitalists, America, the rich of his coutnry, and the oil companies
With Bush, it has been the Terrorists


All the same thing. All manipulations. All Big Lies intent on keeping you fearful and them powerful. Yet, somehow, people like JD50 and others can point out this flaw in others yet refuse to see it in themselves. They clamor to the Big Lie like bees to honey, mostly looking for protection from the objects of the Big Lie yet failing to see they are nothing but tools.

I am glad I have an education in history and psychology, at least I can see it. However, these people do not cater to people like me, they cater to the ignorant masses.

Every party has its lie/enemy/fear to marshal the people around, some just do it more effectively than others.

When the Democrats come to power again it will be social spending/protectionist trade/nanny state law at the behest of "protecting the people". Same shtick, different subjects, yet equally harmful to us in practice.

Given any luck we'll end up with deadlock.
 

JD50

Lifer
Sep 4, 2005
11,827
2,590
136
Originally posted by: K1052
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: K1052
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: K1052
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
What's amusing is that the same people who say that Chavez is wrong for doing this in Venezuela have no problem with Bush doing it here.

I don't see anyone calling for the repeal of the 22nd Amendment.


How long has Chavez been undermining their democracy?

He had a couple year head start on our dimwitted President but used even less subtle methods (if thats possible). Though it is an absolute certainty that Bush will be gone at the end of his term and there will probably be a Democrat in the White House next term.


He's definitely less elegant and subtle with his techniques, but our government has been almost as effective with the use of its time.

I think that one thing that is really, truly, amazing to me is how gullible people are. It never ends, but what's even more amazing is that they will call others gullible yet fail to see it in themselves. These people are usually less educated or self-deceiving and fall victim to those who desire to control them. In most cases, they do not know history.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Big_Lie

With Hitler it was the Jews
With Stalin it was the Capitalists
With Mao and others it was the Capitalists and the Japanese
With Castro it was America and the Capitalists
With McCarthy and others it was the Red Scare
With Chavez it has been the Capitalists, America, the rich of his coutnry, and the oil companies
With Bush, it has been the Terrorists


All the same thing. All manipulations. All Big Lies intent on keeping you fearful and them powerful. Yet, somehow, people like JD50 and others can point out this flaw in others yet refuse to see it in themselves. They clamor to the Big Lie like bees to honey, mostly looking for protection from the objects of the Big Lie yet failing to see they are nothing but tools.

I am glad I have an education in history and psychology, at least I can see it. However, these people do not cater to people like me, they cater to the ignorant masses.

Every party has its lie/enemy/fear to marshal the people around, some just do it more effectively than others.

When the Democrats come to power again it will be social spending/protectionist trade/nanny state law at the behest of "protecting the people". Same shtick, different subjects, yet equally harmful to us in practice.

Given any luck we'll end up with deadlock.


Well said. :thumbsup:
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
What's amusing is that the same people who say that Chavez is wrong for doing this in Venezuela have no problem with Bush doing it here.

I absolutely have a problem with Bush trying to end term limits. Wait, that hasn't happend.....:confused:

Wait, did Chavez start there?

Oh yeah, this comes back to our conversation about the Miami cops. Short-sighted buffoons fail to see the actions of getting to the goal, from the goal itself. What is happening there, as with here, is the means to an end. Idiots can't differentiate between the two because they lack the mental fortitude and intellectual honesty to admit they were too myopic.

In Ven. Chavez is using the poorly educated and economically deprived as the tools by which to manipulate the government. Here it's the RINOs and the religious. Same tool, different type. One is a spade, the other is a regular shovel, both dig dirt.

The sad thing is, you're sitting there calling the spade a shovel without realizing you're the same thing.

You might want to reread what you wrote. You said, "have no problem with Bush doing it here". You did not say that they wouldn't have a problem IF Bush did it here, you said that they don't have a problem with Bush doing it here. Bush is not trying to end term limits. You said that he was. If thats not what you meant then you should choose your words more carefully, because I seriously doubt anyone would support bush trying to end term limits.

You constantly accuse those of us that believe that terrorism is a problem of fear mongering, when terrorism is real and happening. Now you are trying to scare everyone into believing that Bush is about to push for an end to term limits, when you have absolutely no proof of that. If you do, I'd love to see it.

I don't like Bush and I'm not defending him, but you making shit up is just silly. You just pulled a McOwen, congrats!


Sorry, I didn't specify that what I am saying "have no problem with Bush doing it here", with regards to the general undermining of our democracy, as Bush has done here. Perhaps you didn't get the broader implications.

Terrorism isn't a real threat. We have multitudes more people dying every year from a plethora of other reasons, yet none get funding of 300bn.

Don't give me that McOwen crap because you can't see past your nose.
 

imported_Shivetya

Platinum Member
Jul 7, 2005
2,978
1
0
Originally posted by: ayabe
Originally posted by: Mxylplyx
Havent all the Chavez cheerleaders been banned? These threads are no fun without them.

Appears so.

Perhaps all of us "extreme" liberals aren't quite that extreme.

The 20th century taught most of us an important lesson, totalitarianism isn't a left/right issue it can arise from any direction.


Probably because Chavez isn't a liberal. He is a fascist trying to pass himself off as a socialist.

 

Sinsear

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2007
6,439
80
91
Originally posted by: Mxylplyx
Havent all the Chavez cheerleaders been banned? These threads are no fun without them.

Yep; Steeplerot was the key to entertaining Chavez threads. I mean who can forget the one where he explained how good "dumpster gourmet" was? I believe jrenz's sig quote comes from that thread as well.


No big surprise here though. I'm still predicting that Chavez will declare himself dictator for life in the not so far off future.