Chairman Mao

[LongCoolMother]

Originally posted by: preslove

people flocked to the red army because they didnt know any better. very generally speaking, the nationalist army was corrupt in officials and structure, and thats the reason people gave increasing support for the communist party. in reality, they blindly did this, displeased with their current leadership. in fact, the nationalists were screwed either way during the japanese invasion.

communists suggested that the nationalists+communists cease fighting and fight the japanese together. nationalists felt their first priority was to eliminate the communists, and then fight the japanese after. later, with no choice (china in ruins), they actually did this (lot of people dont realize it). after the japanese left, communists became stronger and eventually drove the nationalists out of the mainland.

Actually, if you read any good account of "Nationalist" cooperation with U.S. forces during WWII you will find that Chiang Kai Shek refused to fight the Japanese unless put under extreme pressure by his U.S. allies, and even then it was always half hearted. Even during WWII, years after Japan invaded Manchuria, Chiang was taking U.S. weapons and equipment and using them against the Communists. Chiang was ALWAYS more intereted in fighting the Commies because he knew that Japan was only interested in Manchuria and some cities, whereas the communists wanted the entire country. The only problem, though, was that Manchuria was the industrial center of China, which meant that its occupation by foriegn troops exasperated China's poverty epidemic even further, thereby improving the commies' attractiveness.

The communist revolution in China, imho, was an outgrowth of western imperialism that eventually brought China to its knees. China in the 1820's was a self contained cultural, political, and economic entity that had little to gain from the west, it could even produce textiles cheaper than the British with their machines. The brits came in and hated the conditions they had to trade under (among other things they COULDN'T SELL OPIUM!!) and so, after the chinese destroyed a huge amount of conviscated opium, they fought the First Opium War. After that they and the french fought a second. There were a couple of more interventions, some of which the U.S. was involved in. After each little war the Chinese had to accept further indignities: The Europeans established municipal governments into segments of key trading cities that they had full soverienty over, European and American warships could patrol Chinese RIVERS, incredably high reparations, etc. Japan was only getting in on the looting. It's no wonder why Chinese society colapsed, with warlordism (effictively the absence of civil government) growing out of control.

Dr. Sun Yat-Sen started the nationalist movement to get rid of the warlords, get the foriengners out of China and to restore stability to the chaotic mess created by our ancestors, but he died a hero, leaving a judas as successor. Chiang Kai Shek sold out to the Europeans and Americans, and somewhat to the Japanese. He killed hundreds of thousands (maybe millions) in his quest for power and the destruction of the communists.

That opened up the door for the Communists to claim to be the saviors of China. The peasents were tired of being screwed by the landlords, so they joined. The intellectuals were sick of Chiang and his betrayal of chinese nationalism, so they went communist (providing the backbone of the party). They took the countryside, were driven to the northwest, solidified, and retook the country after WWII.

After Mao's amazing accomplishment he went nuts. It's kind of understandable, he had done what every leader of China since the appearance of the European traders had failed to do, kick the foreigners out and restore the national borders. He developed a god complex to compete with his messiah complex and started all these huge projects that ended up with millions of deaths. Only now is China reemerging from the darkness it found itself in during the 19th century.

Much of the blame should fall on him, but it also should fall on Chiang as well as the Europeans, Americans and Japanese that imploded Chinese society. They brought a civilization to its knees in order to loot and pillage, and the communist revolution was a backlash against the foreigners that had dramatic effects on the chinese populaiton.

This is an object lesson in why you don't fvck up a civilization beyond repair. It just creates some ideology/religion/movement that repairs the social/economic/political framework. The problem is that it is done in defiance of us, and therefore in a manner that we do not condone.

excellent! details i hadnt known previously. im not all that familiar with chinese history, but i do take interest in it. so the fall of china was caused essentially by all parties. including the japanese and europeans. i think the 19th-20th century was a very dark time for china, with the japanese invasion, opium war (consisting of 8 invading western countries right?), boxer revolution, that woman emperor (xi qi or something), and power struggles. at least they're realling making a return now.

 

[rchiu]

Originally posted by: preslove

Actually, if you read any good account of "Nationalist" cooperation with U.S. forces during WWII you will find that Chiang Kai Shek refused to fight the Japanese unless put under extreme pressure by his U.S. allies, and even then it was always half hearted. Even during WWII, years after Japan invaded Manchuria, Chiang was taking U.S. weapons and equipment and using them against the Communists. Chiang was ALWAYS more intereted in fighting the Commies because he knew that Japan was only interested in Manchuria and some cities, whereas the communists wanted the entire country. The only problem, though, was that Manchuria was the industrial center of China, which meant that its occupation by foriegn troops exasperated China's poverty epidemic even further, thereby improving the commies' attractiveness.

The communist revolution in China, imho, was an outgrowth of western imperialism that eventually brought China to its knees. China in the 1820's was a self contained cultural, political, and economic entity that had little to gain from the west, it could even produce textiles cheaper than the British with their machines. The brits came in and hated the conditions they had to trade under (among other things they COULDN'T SELL OPIUM!!) and so, after the chinese destroyed a huge amount of conviscated opium, they fought the First Opium War. After that they and the french fought a second. There were a couple of more interventions, some of which the U.S. was involved in. After each little war the Chinese had to accept further indignities: The Europeans established municipal governments into segments of key trading cities that they had full soverienty over, European and American warships could patrol Chinese RIVERS, incredably high reparations, etc. Japan was only getting in on the looting. It's no wonder why Chinese society colapsed, with warlordism (effictively the absence of civil government) growing out of control.

Dr. Sun Yat-Sen started the nationalist movement to get rid of the warlords, get the foriengners out of China and to restore stability to the chaotic mess created by our ancestors, but he died a hero, leaving a judas as successor. Chiang Kai Shek sold out to the Europeans and Americans, and somewhat to the Japanese. He killed hundreds of thousands (maybe millions) in his quest for power and the destruction of the communists.

That opened up the door for the Communists to claim to be the saviors of China. The peasents were tired of being screwed by the landlords, so they joined. The intellectuals were sick of Chiang and his betrayal of chinese nationalism, so they went communist (providing the backbone of the party). They took the countryside, were driven to the northwest, solidified, and retook the country after WWII.

After Mao's amazing accomplishment he went nuts. It's kind of understandable, he had done what every leader of China since the appearance of the European traders had failed to do, kick the foreigners out and restore the national borders. He developed a god complex to compete with his messiah complex and started all these huge projects that ended up with millions of deaths. Only now is China reemerging from the darkness it found itself in during the 19th century.

Much of the blame should fall on him, but it also should fall on Chiang as well as the Europeans, Americans and Japanese that imploded Chinese society. They brought a civilization to its knees in order to loot and pillage, and the communist revolution was a backlash against the foreigners that had dramatic effects on the chinese populaiton.

This is an object lesson in why you don't fvck up a civilization beyond repair. It just creates some ideology/religion/movement that repairs the social/economic/political framework. The problem is that it is done in defiance of us, and therefore in a manner that we do not condone.

Well written and informative post. However, IMHO, Chiang Kai-Shek was not all that bad and Mao Zedong was not all that heroic, and you need to add Ching Dynasty and pretty much the Chinese people as those to blame for this dark chapter of Chinese history.

Chiang, even though reluctent in the beginning, did lead the Chinese in fighting the well equipped and powerful Japanese for 8 years, four years before American joined the war. In fact, one can argue that if not for Chiang's leadership and Chinese's sacrifice which held much of Japanese military presence in China, US would have much tougher time winning WW2.

Mao on the other hand, his communist army was almost defeated totally by Chiang's national army prior to the war against Japanese. It was only because of the Xi-an incident that Chiang was forced to fight Japanese instead of eliminating the communist army. When Chiang's national army fought Japanese and suffered heavy casualty, the communist army recuperated and became stronger. That's one of the reason why communist was able defeat nationalist army.

The late 1800's and early 1900's was a sad chapter in Chinese history. But you cannot blame everything on foreingers. I mean foreigners are going to try and take advantage no matter what (yeah that's right, for those who believe USA is freeing Iraqis, keep dreaming), it is up to you to protect yourself from foreigners. Japan had similar culture and political structure as China, but they had an emperor who wasn't afraid to admit foreign technology was better, sent students abroad, learned and made themselves stronger. Chinese on the other hand, so proud of our tradition and culture, refused to open up. In addition, the Ching Dynasty under the rule of Empress Dowager Tzi-xi was corrupted to the core. The Chinese society had many classes and discriminated against the working/farming class. The income gap between classes was just huge. All those made Chinese defenseless against foreigners, and induced hatreds towards foreigners and those who represented the western culture.

Chiang Kai-Shek was not so much an evil leader per se, he marely represented the "have" side of the Chinese society. His wife came from one of the richest family, graduate from Wellesley College in US. His in-laws were either industrialists or big bankers. Mao was not so much a hero of Chinese people, he just represented the "have nots" side of the Chinese society. The civil war of China was a great class struggle between the have and have nots, one side won, and the killing, instability and starvation followed had alot to do with the over correction to an unbalanced society.

 

[UCSDHappyAsian]

Before i even start, i have to admit one thing that China is doing VERY WELL NOW, and i am sure most of you would agree on this. Today's topic has to do with an old leader that killed million of innocent Chinese, both directly and indirectly. Nope, the following number of death does not include the death caused by common illness, deaths cause he/she is too old..etc IF you dont feel comfortable about ppl talking mad $hit about chairman mao, either u do some more research or simply do not continue to read it since you are too faithful to Chairman Mao.


many people have different estimates about amount ppl MAO killed during his leadership.
well... i would go with the one that says 80 million+ cause of the following:
First, during three years natural disaster, more than 40 something millions hunger to death.
and second, during Cultural Revolution, 30 million deaths... and revolution last for years
third, i am sure he killed more, here and there, and combined the total which gives us 80 something millions
How valuable does lives mean to him? nothing.
When the US wanted to help south korea, MAO ordered his son and a great amount of army to help North korea.... and MAO successfully stopped the US's troop by out-number..... the Killed-in-Actions ration was 6-1

YES, 6 lives of Chinese to stop 1 life of America from helping SOUTH KOREA......
About three years natural disaster, many of would wondered, "Was it a lot disaster in those 3 years?"
My instructor went through it while he was young, he said," there was absolutely NO natural disaster, it was simply caused by his useless policies." he says, ppl were actually eating trees and grass remember what North Koreans are doin now from the NEWS, yes thats what ppl were doin during those three years.



chinese offial says, "70% of what he did was good for China, and 30% is bad for China."
Remember one fact that Chinese officials never admit their fault, and they actually admit that 30% of what MAO did was essentially bad to China, thats something, isnt it.


However, to end this msg, i have to say something one more time.
CHINA is doing very well... and above msg only goes to chairman mao.

 

[Corporate Thug]

if you want to talk $hit just discuss culutral revolution and great leap forward