CGI films graphics comparisons?

Insomniator

Diamond Member
Oct 23, 2002
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Are there any articles or discussions about the advancement of CGI movies? How about compared to current games? Or about what types of farms they were rendered on..

I was just wondering this question and watched a little bit of the original Toy Story (1995!!) and I dunno... in action I did not really notice how 'old' it is compared to Bolt or any newer ones.

All I found was a discussion of Toy Story vs Crysis found here Text
 

brblx

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Mar 23, 2009
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to be honest, some of the recent CGI movies (and there have been an asston) look downright bad. if the tech's improving, the animators aren't.

i've wondered about what kind of hardware they used to do toy story (probably something with a lot of high end (for that day) non-x86 processors), but have been unable to find much. when broken down into pieces, the modeling and animating wouldn't have been that bad, but the thing that actually rendered the scenes must've been pretty damn hoss.
 

Fox5

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Jan 31, 2005
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Originally posted by: Insomniator
Are there any articles or discussions about the advancement of CGI movies? How about compared to current games? Or about what types of farms they were rendered on..

I was just wondering this question and watched a little bit of the original Toy Story (1995!!) and I dunno... in action I did not really notice how 'old' it is compared to Bolt or any newer ones.

All I found was a discussion of Toy Story vs Crysis found here Text

Heh, interesting choices to compare.
Looking at Toy Story, the polygon counts are lowish, but probably still higher than anything today. Doesn't use bump-mapping or other methods of faking detail. Lighting looks per-vertex (with an incredibly high poly mesh) instead of per pixel. Err, I suppose it's probably ray traced though. Animations were probably very good, better than we've seen in games. Oh, and super high res/AA that would make anything look pretty good. Seriously, if you've got an nvidia card, pick a game, force 16X SSAA, and see how it looks.

The ghostbusters video game has built in super sampling if you edit the ini file. I set it to 4x and the game looked freaking amazing, like a CG movie. It was also unplayable, but 3360x2100 downscaled to 1680x1050 looks quite good.
 

reallyscrued

Platinum Member
Jul 28, 2004
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I don't think there has been necessarily an "advancement" in the graphics of animated movies, after all, it's not like the animators have an API to work with, right? I mean, if they wanted to put a special effect like heat bending light back in Toy Story, they would've been able to do so.

They have been looking cruddy lately, not sure why. Some tech demos for video cards have looked better than like "Finding Nemo" or some crap, and those are rendered in realtime. I guess those studios really care more about story.
 

Scali

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Dec 3, 2004
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Try googling on Pixar and RenderMan.
Pixar is THE animation company. It started off as a company for the Star Wars special effects for Lucasfilm.
Pixar developed RenderMan, the leading computer graphics software in the movie industry.
It's not only used for animated movies, but also for special effects in movies like Terminator II, The Matrix and such.

It's a REYES renderer, which is different from the approach that 3d accelerators take, although the two are related. The main difference is that a REYES renderer doesn't really work with polygons. It subdivides its geometry dynamically, down to subpixel-level, then it can render a 'micropolygon' as a single pixel. Video cards cannot do that (yet).

Pixar uses a standard x86-based renderfarm these days. Before that, I believe they had MIPS systems. Doesn't really matter anyway, it's just regular CPUs, no special graphics features. Just a bunch of pizzaboxes wired together, basically.

Anyway, Toy Story was revolutionary, as it was the first ever full-length computer-animated movie. Before that, Pixar had done a few short films.
For every movie Pixar makes, they develop new technology for RenderMan, to push the envelope further.
For example, for Monsters Inc. they did a lot of work on fur-effects. And for Cars, they added raytracing effects for some of the reflections (pet-peeve of mine... computer animated stuff in movies is generally NOT raytraced, and even in Cars it's only about 20-30% of a scene, Pixar published a paper on that. Raytracing is just too slow and too limited for most of the rendering). Nemo concentrated on realistic underwater physics, Wall-E tried to get the look and feel of old 70 mm cameras, etc...

So in Pixar's case, each movie is 'better' than the previous, at least in the technical sense.
But there are others who also make animated movies, which may or may not be as good as Pixar's. It seems that some companies just like to churn out movies as quickly as they can. Most companies also don't develop their own software, so they don't have much control over the quality and effects.
 

MODEL3

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Jul 22, 2009
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Originally posted by: Insomniator
I was just wondering this question and watched a little bit of the original Toy Story (1995!!) and I dunno... in action I did not really notice how 'old' it is compared to Bolt or any newer ones. [/L]

I completely agree.
In my personal opinion the progression Pixar made in the Graphics quality (perception of Graphics quality not in the technology side) is minimal. Nevertheless Pixar is still the best between the animation studios.

Actually something is missing (I have the feeling that something is worst (I can't understand if the resolution of rendering is lower or the procedural shaders (texture equivalent in REYES) is not producing the desirable effects or the LOD is bad, or the level of antialiasing is lower)
Also some artistic choices didn't help either.

I think Scali gave a very good explanation, I will only add for spice that
R.E.Y.E.S. means "Renders Everything You Ever Saw"



 

Scali

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Dec 3, 2004
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Originally posted by: MODEL3
I completely agree.
In my personal opinion the progression Pixar made in the Graphics quality (perception of Graphics quality not in the technology side) is minimal. Nevertheless Pixar is still the best between the animation studios.

I suppose this is much like with games over the years...
You avoid situations that you know you can't render properly. Quake was an all-indoor game because outdoor scenes couldn't be handled properly by the hardware available at the time.
Likewise, there were no underwater scenes or detailed cars and things in early Pixar movies. They didn't have the technology, so they just avoided situations where the lack of detail would show up. So yes, just like with games, it's hard to see the progress for the 'untrained eye'. But if you know how difficult it is to implement some of the effects and environments, you know what progression has been made.
 

Modelworks

Lifer
Feb 22, 2007
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I don't think there has been necessarily an "advancement" in the graphics of animated movies, after all, it's not like the animators have an API to work with, right? I mean, if they wanted to put a special effect like heat bending light back in Toy Story, they would've been able to do so.


They do have API and several of them that are custom written for just professional graphics. Mental Ray programmers are some of the highest paid people in graphics work. Others work with API like euphoria to adapt them to the current work. Every film you see at the theater probably had at least 2 programmers and often as many as 10 or more. The reason we do not see effects like heat or bump mapping or anything else is often because it goes against the look the director wants to achieve. The other issue is the time it takes to render out scenes. Some examples from my current workload.

Scene 1 : 4096 x 2340 35mm film aspect 1.75 , total ploygon count 9,721,222 , total texture count 173, total texture size 3,221,428,931 , render time 4 cores, 9 min 21 seconds
Scene 2 : 4096 x 2340 35mm film aspect 1.75 , total ploygon count 7,274,219 , total texture count 181, total texture size 2,003,163,295 , render time 4 cores, 14 min 04 seconds

Those times are for each frame. I need 24 frames for one second of film, so for Scene 1 it takes ~ 216 minutes for each second of film or over 3 hours. Or 7 days for one minute of film. Massive render farms speed that up but even the largest render farms average 30 seconds on a frame . So each time the film is rendered out for preview it can take 30 days of render time. So we generally use previews without ray tracing or particles until it is really needed.

Using GPU for rendering right now is not practical for film. The reason is that so much of the industry relies on things like mental ray that were designed to be run on a cpu and porting that to GPU has been a nightmare for those that tried it. Nvidia tried it with gelato but the majority of features artists use were not supported. The renderers themselves have changed a lot over the years. Renderers now are very complex making it even harder to port to a GPU .

One thing I want to clear up is raytracing. Raytracing is assumed to be, by a lot of people, the shiny reflections on objects. And while it is used for that, it is not its primary use by artists. A good example is a product called V-Ray. V-ray has become one of the industries most used renderers because of its ability to trace every bounce of light down to detail levels approaching absurd. There is no way that video cards will render on that level anytime in the near future. Check out the gallery.
http://www.chaosgroup.com/en/2/galleries.html
http://www.maxwellrender.com/

Vray and also Maxwell are the new trend towards making renderers physically accurate. Previously pixar and others used tricks to render scenes , the artist would guess what the final output should look like and use textures to fake the result. Now the artist can let the renderer do all the work. I can tell it that the room is lit from the east, the temperature of the light is 4300K, the walls reflect light at 5%, the furniture materials absorb 20% and the shadows cast on the floor are reflected back at 11% and it will do all the work bouncing rays around the scene until the energy for that ray is gone. Along its path the ray picks up the color of the objects it bounces off and figures that into the output. It also does something called sub surface scattering. SSS is the effect you get when you place a bright light behind your hand and the edges of your hand glow red. That is light that entered the skin, bounced around under it , then reflected back out.

The tech is there to make CG films photo realistic, it just isn't done because the purpose of CGI right now is to do things that are unique to the genre, not to make it look like a real life filmed movie. It would be like the hand drawn cartoonist trying to create a life like animation, it wouldn't be nearly as entertaining.





 

Scali

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Dec 3, 2004
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Raytracing isn't the next big thing... photonmapping is.
Henrik Wann Jensen has done great work in this area. And yes, he does have an implementation on a GPU aswell.
Photonmapping allows you to do all sorts of indirect light effects, such as subsurface scattering, refraction (caustics), participating media, global illummination etc... faster and with higher quality than previous raytracing solutions with bruteforce monte carlo path tracing approaches.
 

Modelworks

Lifer
Feb 22, 2007
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Originally posted by: Scali
Raytracing isn't the next big thing... photonmapping is.

Vray and Maxwell already use photon mapping. They use both ray-tracing and photon mapping in the same scenes.
 

MODEL3

Senior member
Jul 22, 2009
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Originally posted by: Scali
Likewise, there were no underwater scenes or detailed cars and things in early Pixar movies. They didn't have the technology, so they just avoided situations where the lack of detail would show up. So yes, just like with games, it's hard to see the progress for the 'untrained eye'. But if you know how difficult it is to implement some of the effects and environments, you know what progression has been made.

If they just avoided situations where the lack of detail would show up in previous movies then I guess I have a 'trained eye' seeing the lack of detail in today's movies (or a lot of imagination) . (just kidding, I made a pun with your attempt to label me as someone with "untrained eye")

After all it doesn't have someone to work in the games Industry (or participating in the Beyond3D forums (I got it right?) in order to know how difficult it is to implement some of the effects and environments, afterall that's why I said perception of Graphics quality (the key word is perception which imply subjective comprehension)
 

Modelworks

Lifer
Feb 22, 2007
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Originally posted by: MODEL3

If they just avoided situations where the lack of detail would show up in previous movies then I guess I have a 'trained eye' seeing the lack of detail in today's movies (or a lot of imagination) . (just kidding, I made a pun with your attempt to label me as someone with "untrained eye")


They don't avoid situations because of lack of detail. They don't include them because it is often not part of the look they want to achieve or the story line. There really is very little that cannot be done right now in CGI. Most of the time directors are telling us to cut out detail not add more detail.

One of the big issues is continuity. If you make a film where some scenes are highly detailed and others are not then the viewer is going to notice it. A good effect or CGI is one that does not pull the viewer out of the story. If people stop to think about the effect and not the story then the director has failed.
 

lopri

Elite Member
Jul 27, 2002
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Are we comparing a real-time rendering and off-line rendering? I'd think there would be something seriously wrong if off-line rendering isn't noticeably better.

Edit: Oh. Sorry there is a time gap. I wasn't paying attention. Last year I liked 'Ratatouille' very much.
 

MODEL3

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Jul 22, 2009
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Originally posted by: Modelworks
Originally posted by: MODEL3

If they just avoided situations where the lack of detail would show up in previous movies then I guess I have a 'trained eye' seeing the lack of detail in today's movies (or a lot of imagination) . (just kidding, I made a pun with your attempt to label me as someone with "untrained eye")


They don't avoid situations because of lack of detail. They don't include them because it is often not part of the look they want to achieve or the story line. There really is very little that cannot be done right now in CGI. Most of the time directors are telling us to cut out detail not add more detail.

Read again my previous reply, I didn't said it, Scali did and I made an attempt to make humor.

I agree with the rest.

 

MODEL3

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Jul 22, 2009
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Originally posted by: lopri
Are we comparing a real-time rendering and off-line rendering? I'd think there would be something seriously wrong if off-line rendering isn't noticeably better.

No we are not doing that, I just made a comment about how in my personal perception, (the feeling I got watching the graphics) I don't feel that the difference between TOY STORY and the later released movies is that big and some guys desagree.