Cell Phone Companies Selling location Data

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woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
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Because they did the work to collect it. There is some benefit to a company when it can target a demographic. Knowing where your product and advertising should go prevents you from wasting time and resources trying to reach people that wont buy what you want to sell.

There are some benefits to this. I wish I could control it more, but, most wont.

And you think the physical location data is OK to sell too? Does privacy factor into this equation at all for you, or you are solely concerned about corporate profits?
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
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So you're saying we can't have a regulation which prevents telcos from selling the physical location of your phone to the highest bidder? You realize that this information is being sold to aggregators who are selling it to whoever in the world wants it. If you think that is fine, then OK. I do not. And I strongly suspect that the vast majority of people would not either, after finding out about it.

I saying something more than that. Again, lets say you prevent telcos from selling your gps data. There are more ways to figure out where you are.

Again, I do not think its fine. I think far too much information about people is out in the world. What is even more troubling is what you can extrapolate from that data.

Look at what happened at FB. People were able to take data, figure out who would believe propaganda, and reach those people. That to me is far worse than GPS data. But, within that FB data you could still figure out a whole lot about where a person was even without GPS information.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
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You're delusional if you think the average person wouldn't be quite creeped out by this.

Its a combination though. If you just tell them how much info is out there, they will likely not like it. You then add in all the services that they would have to pay for without that info, and people quickly flip. The younger the person, the less they seem to care as well.

People are far too willing to give up data about themselves.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
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I saying something more than that. Again, lets say you prevent telcos from selling your gps data. There are more ways to figure out where you are.

Again, I do not think its fine. I think far too much information about people is out in the world. What is even more troubling is what you can extrapolate from that data.

Look at what happened at FB. People were able to take data, figure out who would believe propaganda, and reach those people. That to me is far worse than GPS data. But, within that FB data you could still figure out a whole lot about where a person was even without GPS information.

Sure, your facebook page may indicate something about what city or state you live in, depending on how much information you decide to post to it. That is very different than having your GPS coordinates sold to the highest bidder.

So you do or do not think there should be a regulation to preclude the selling of your physical location - without your knowledge - to anyone in the world who wants it?
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
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And you think the physical location data is OK to sell too? Does privacy factor into this equation at all for you, or you are solely concerned about corporate profits?

My concern is not profits. My concern is privacy.

Personally, I'm torn with my love of technology with the fact that I give out too much information. Some background info on me, I did not do a yearbook photo in HS because I did not care to have my name and picture out in the world. I don't have a FB profile photo. I wont download apps that need permissions to contact info when its just a game.

Privacy is a big deal to me, but, I also live in a world where privacy is not much of a concern to most people. FB is a great example of how little people care.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
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Sure, your facebook page may indicate something about what city or state you live in, depending on how much information you decide to post to it. Yet it doesn't contain your precise physical location.

So you do or do not think there should be a regulation to preclude the selling of your physical location - without your knowledge - to anyone in the world who wants it?

You are not thinking like a marketer.

You post photos of where you had lunch. You tag people that were there with you. FB analyzes faces and does it for you. You combine this into a network of other people's info. You can then extrapolate many things about people. Age, race, sex, interests, location.

We have to do this in marketing all the time. We are always trying to understand our demo and how to reach them. We try and find out what they like, and who they are.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
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My concern is not profits. My concern is privacy.

Personally, I'm torn with my love of technology with the fact that I give out too much information. Some background info on me, I did not do a yearbook photo in HS because I did not care to have my name and picture out in the world. I don't have a FB profile photo. I wont download apps that need permissions to contact info when its just a game.

Privacy is a big deal to me, but, I also live in a world where privacy is not much of a concern to most people. FB is a great example of how little people care.

I think people care more than you think. They just do not realize the extent to which certain information is being sold and hence they are careless.

When the GOP stealth passed a bill in 2017 to negate an Obama regulation which precluded ISP's from selling your information to advertisers, there was a poll about that bill. It had 7% support nationally. My guess is that the 7% either worked for ISP's or had stock in them. As a rule, people do not want their information sold.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
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You are not thinking like a marketer.

You post photos of where you had lunch. You tag people that were there with you. FB analyzes faces and does it for you. You combine this into a network of other people's info. You can then extrapolate many things about people. Age, race, sex, interests, location.

We have to do this in marketing all the time. We are always trying to understand our demo and how to reach them. We try and find out what they like, and who they are.

No, I do not. Yet you're correct that many people do. Because they don't realize that there are people who are parsing all that data to target them for advertising.

It's quite sad what the internet has become. I've been on it since before the web. Now it's just a gigantic medium for corporate advertising. The smart thing to do is not to participate in social media at all any more. Or to use your credit card for online purchases. Or provide any information at all. Which is sad.
 

shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
80,287
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Do you have timeline turned on? Every month I get a history report of where my phone has gone. It shows every place I went, how long I traveled, how long I spent there. It also knows where I work by looking at where I go in the morning. It knows what my work schedule is and gives me traffic updates for my commute going to and coming from work. It also scans my gmail and knows when I have a flight. It then lets me know when I should leave my current location to make it to the airport.

I THOUGHT I turned it off a long time ago.
Guess they re enabled it somehow.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
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No, I do not. Yet you're correct that many people do. Because they don't realize that there are people who are parsing all that data to target them for advertising.

It's quite sad what the internet has become. I've been on it since before the web. Now it's just a gigantic medium for corporate advertising. The smart thing to do is not to participate in social media at all any more. Or to use your credit card for online purchases. Or provide any information at all. Which is sad.

I would like to believe that if people only knew they would care. My experience leads me to believe they wont though. Maybe its me not explaining just how bad it is, but, whatever the reason people I talk to do not agree.

The internet is powerful. That power gives us a great many good things, but, there is always a tradeoff. People are social animals and want to socialize. They are willing to do some pretty dumb things to do it.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
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I would like to believe that if people only knew they would care. My experience leads me to believe they wont though. Maybe its me not explaining just how bad it is, but, whatever the reason people I talk to do not agree.

The internet is powerful. That power gives us a great many good things, but, there is always a tradeoff. People are social animals and want to socialize. They are willing to do some pretty dumb things to do it.

They probably care more about their phone GPS being sold than their photos being analyzed for targeted online advertising. The latter is annoying, while the former is dangerous.

I would remind you that this thread is about the former, not the latter.

I stand by what I said. We need a regulation to prohibit this.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
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I THOUGHT I turned it off a long time ago.
Guess they re enabled it somehow.

I cant say for sure, but turning it off would likely only prevent you from seeing it. I would bet they keep every bit of data they can.

Google - People in this area at this age like adds for X, while people in this area in this age like adds for Y. We should tailor our adds to reach those people.

Company - Hey Google, we believe our demo is young people. Can you give us some insight on the age of people that click on our adds?

Google - Sure thing. Man, glad we collected that data.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
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They probably care more about their phone GPS being sold than their photos being analyzed for targeted online advertising. The latter is annoying, while the former is dangerous.

I would remind you that this thread is about the former, not the latter.

I stand by what I said. We need a regulation to prohibit this.

Tell me, what is the fear of GPS information? How is the other mountains of information that could be accessed not going to give that same person the information that leads to the answer you just gave?
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
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Tell me, what is the fear of GPS information? How is the other mountains of information that could be accessed not going to give that same person the information that leads to the answer you just gave?

That would depend on what information the person in question is posting to his facebook page. I can guarantee you that you would not get the equivalent of my precise physical location from my Facebook page.

You seem to be operating from the premise that there is no point in precluding one way of invading someone's privacy because there are other ways which might be used. Why lock the door to your house when some people might have the ability to pick locks or just break a window? That isn't a valid argument.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
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That would depend on what information the person in question is posting to his facebook page. I can guarantee you that you would not get the equivalent of my precise physical location from my Facebook page.

You seem to be operating from the premise that there is no point in precluding one way of invading someone's privacy because there are other ways which might be used. Why lock the door to your house when some people might have the ability to pick locks or just break a window? That isn't a valid argument.

No, I am not saying that prevention is pointless. I'm saying that trying to outlaw GPS data scratches at the surface of this issue and will at best give people a false sense of security.

I am also not just talking about what people post publicly.

Amazon is using facial recognition in some of its test stores. The UK is know for its video surveillance. Apple pay and Google pay are a thing.

There is ample sources for gathering information to stalk someone. So, because this issue is so big, it would need public support that I just don't see.
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
23,993
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Hehehe .. Did you guys catch that about a facebook patent where they can "track" you based on the dust on your lens? That is, based on the 'dust' on the pictures you take.. This picture has 'this dust' thus it must be from user x.
Big Data aaaaaaaall the way up our collective arses.. and then some.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Hehehe .. Did you guys catch that about a facebook patent where they can "track" you based on the dust on your lens? That is, based on the 'dust' on the pictures you take.. This picture has 'this dust' thus it must be from user x.
Big Data aaaaaaaall the way up our collective arses.. and then some.

https://gizmodo.com/facebook-knows-how-to-track-you-using-the-dust-on-your-1821030620

In 2014, Facebook filed a patent application for a technique that employs smartphone data to figure out if two people might know each other. The author, an engineering manager at Facebook named Ben Chen, wrote that it was not merely possible to detect that two smartphones were in the same place at the same time, but that by comparing the accelerometer and gyroscope readings of each phone, the data could identify when people were facing each other or walking together. That way, Facebook could suggest you friend the person you were talking to at a bar last night, and not all the other people there that you chose not to talk to.
 

Thump553

Lifer
Jun 2, 2000
12,757
2,533
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Odds are pretty great that when you sign a bail bond agreement you consent to this kind of screen. In many respects a bounty hunter has more legal tools are their disposal than do the police (at least without a warrant).

Personally I'm pretty obsessed with personal privacy but frankly in this day and age that makes me a Luddite.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
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So how do you make that illegal? Its AI predicting things from data that is perfectly valid. There are multiple ways to get data, and its reasonable to want it. The problem is that we are in the information age and computers are a thing.

Google works with the CDC.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/google-flu-trends-on-par-with-cdc-data/

That's from 2010. At that time, the CDC had about a 2 week lag. Google was doing the same thing daily.

But, lets say that telcos and ISPs are not allowed to sell your GPS data. What about the data of where you opened an app? What about a purchase you made at a store? What about where you filled out a lead slip? Where you used a gift card?

Google compiles everything you do, and builds a profile of you.

Google working with the CDC is metadata. It's not used in way that targets the habits of anybody in particular. It's not what we're talking about at all. And, yeh, Google can target individuals for advertising because it's their data in the first place.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,286
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This is more than a free market issue. I don't know if the free market can solve this, but, I see the same limitations in any other structure.

Even tech people here download apps and accept that it uses location services. You are giving access to these apps to see all of your phone numbers, your location. I think the vast majority of people will simply not care, and so no regulation or oversight is going to change much. For any meaningful change, people would need to care beyond a few tech people.
Cattle probably never hit an electric fence more than once.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
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Tell me, what is the fear of GPS information? How is the other mountains of information that could be accessed not going to give that same person the information that leads to the answer you just gave?

Heh. I'll give a couple of scenarios. Let's say a company sends somebody to a seminar. It's boring as fuck so he cuts out on the third day to go fishing instead. Busted. A suspicious spouse hires a PI & they don't even have to follow the subject to catch them in lies. That conference in Las Vegas two years ago? Well, the guy spent the whole time at the Moonlight Bunny Ranch outside Carson city...Those late nights at the office were spent at his girlfriend's house across town. If a person works in a position of trust of any kind it's a way for unscrupulous operators to obtain kompromat...

Cops do that stuff all the time using court orders. There's a reason serious drug dealers call them rat phones...