CD/DVD image formats and their specifics...

[Deist]

Hiya everyone!
Here's my little concern:

I have a bunch (say, about 20 or so) of CD image files of old games (don't panic! Nothing illegal here: all these games are at least 7 years old and were since granted freeware status ()🙂).
For many of these games I actually have more than one CD image file, each of the files in different formats.
eg. for a given game, I may have an image in ISO, another in CCD, yet another one in NRG or MDF, BIN, FCD, etc.

Thing is I want to get rid of duplicates to free some space on my HD, but I would like to keep the /best/ image format for each game. I don't know much about all these various image formats, and I don't want to actually install any of these games to check wether they run fine. My aim is to archive here, I don't care about having immediate/easy access to them. I'll of course open all of them (with Alcohol120% or PowerISO, ...) to check wether the content is strictly identical, but I'm wondering about possible things that maybe don't show up in the media directory listing: eg. I've read about some copy-protections that check the very structure of the CD, how it is burned and all...


Therefore my question is: to what degree does each CD image format preserve the structure and all that's necessary for any possible copy-protection (of course none of the games feature very recent protection schemes/DRM), or put another way: how would each format rank in a contest for the most identical image to the original support?
Is there a clear hierarchy in performance, or maybe there's both advantages and drawbacks for each?

(For instance: what interest does the CCD format have with its additional /.sub/ file over an ISO or MDF image? Obviously this .sub file contains additional datas or stuff not present in other formats, but is it useful -- and if so, just HOW is it useful?)


Kinda difficult to clearly make my point here, so I hope you guys got me alright :\
Thx for taking the time to read my post, and I'm looking forward to your replies!!! 🙂

 

[Deist]

Not one single person is able to answer my question?
I mean, really?

🙁🙁🙁

 

[Zap]

Hello Deist, and welcome to AnandTech Forums.

AnandTech Forum Guidelines

3) No sharing or requesting pirated software. Discussions addressing piracy are allowed, but using the Forums as a hub or a school for pirates is not.

4) No posting of other's copyrighted material. Discussions of copyright are becoming increasingly important, but we will not allow the Forums to be used to violate any US law.

You are walking a fine line. Your "7 years" might be something like the statute of limitations, but not the limit of copyright. I will assume that you were just confused and didn't know. However, consider yourself (and anyone else who reads this) duly warned.

A copyright is valid for 70 years after the death of the author if created by a single person. If by an entity, the copyright is valid for 120 years after creation or 95 years after publication, whichever is shorter. Source.

Just because those games you have CD images of were published more than 7 years ago does NOT mean they are legal to have (unless you purchased and still own the original).

The only exceptions are:

Freeware - Software given away as free, but copyright is retained. 3D Realms did this with some older titles.

Public Domain - Er, can't think of any off hand. Copyright is not retained because of explicit intent by the prior copyright holder or because it has expired, and no modern computer game is old enough to have had the copyright expire. Generally speaking generous companies will re-release titles as Freeware (retaining copyright, but otherwise giving it away for free) instead of releasing it to the public domain.

Open Source - This doesn't mean there isn't a copyright or licensing, but you are free to use it. There seems to be quite a few titles out there.

Abandonware (AKA orphaned works) - This is a bit trickier because the software is still copyrighted, but the copyright is not enforced due to various reasons such as not being able to find the copyright holder or the entity owning the copyright going out of business. The takeaway from this is that the works are still under copyright, so copying it is still illegal even if there is nobody to enforce the copyright.

 

[Deist]

Hello Zap! 🙂

Thanks for your precision. Is it the reason why nobody would previously answer my question? If so, I'll be glad to offer some clarification on the matter, as I've been evidently not very clear with my statement above (well, english is not my native tongue either).

I'm fully aware of legal issues when posting a request on a forum, and I actually would have thought that even abandonware titles would be prohibited to be talked about here...

Anyway, as I wrote above these games are "at _least_ 7 years old" (= I don't actually know their exact age but am only sure that the most recent of them is at least 7 years old. Most might be even older than that). Although in truth their age is wholly irrelevant since, to quote my message again, I am sure that all of them were "since granted freeware status", and I meant it litteraly: I checked that ALL of these CD games are now _freeware_ games! (In fact I downloaded them all via torrents packing legally distributable freeware CD games, and then found images in _other formats_ of the same games -- which is the object of my question 🙂).


Would it make it easier if I just listed plainly all these games of which I have CD images? (So far I didn't because I'd rather get a general answer (ie. applicable to any case) rather than one specifically targeted at these games).

(NB1: Not sure it is of any interest either to say, but some of these games are Amiga games, not DOS/Windows)
(NB2: Incidentally, I wasn't sharing/posting nor requesting any material anyway, be it illegal or not, so regarding this very forum's guidelines, I believe there isn't anything ambiguous or even remotely confusing about my question above, is there? 😉)

 

[Deist]

I'm starting to wonder... Did I post my question in the right section?
(The right forum even?)

Nobody can answer me? Or is even willing to...? 🙁🙁🙁🙁

Please, some enlightening knowledge would be real appreciated!

 

[Drsignguy]

Some things are best left unsaid! I feel ZAP clarified this question for you. And By the way, Welcome to the Forums! 🙂

 

[Deist]

Some things are best left unsaid! I feel ZAP clarified this question for you.

Thanks for the welcome! 🙂:thumbsup:

But I don't get what you meant by "best left unsaid", and no I'm afraid Zap didn't clarify much about my question above. Is it that I didn't explain clearly, or is it not the corretc section where to ask, or... ? Can anybody at least give me a LEAD? :\

 

[Zap]

Would it make it easier if I just listed plainly all these games of which I have CD images?

List of commercial video games released as freeware

1) If your "since granted freeware status" game is not on that list, then it is not freeware.

2) Even if it were free software, licensing may still restrict how it is redistributed.

For instance GTA and GTA2 are free of charge, but to get it legally you have to sign up for Rockstar Games' email list (after which they will provide you with a download). You can't just download disc images of them through torrents and still retain legal status.

 

[DaveSimmons]

If the games were released as freeware, the freeware versions would most likely not be copy-protected.

So to answer OP's question: the images that you legally own have no copy protection and the image format doesn't matter.

For the other images, you should head to some infringement-friendly site to discuss which cracked version is better, this is the wrong site for that.

 

[Voo]

Just because those games you have CD images of were published more than 7 years ago does NOT mean they are legal to have (unless you purchased and still own the original)..

Just having the original medium, does NOT mean you're allowed to create backups - at least not in the EU and I'd think the US is the same in that regard. But the whole stuff is a mess (for example copyrights have absolutely no impact in the EU, the Urheberrecht is similar, but has differences) and considering the international audience here it's quite hard to say what exactly is allowed and what not. And then there's the question of all those greys in there.

If the CD does not have a copy protection or one that is trivially circumvented, creating a backup copy would be legal. If it has valid copy protection and you use the copy only for private use (which you do) then you're only open to civil liabilites.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Just having the original medium, does NOT mean you're allowed to create backups - at least not in the EU and I'd think the US is the same in that regard.

US Copyright law explicitly allows you to make a single archival backup copy of a computer program.

 

[Voo]

US Copyright law explicitly allows you to make a single archival backup copy of a computer program.

Even if you have to circumvent copy protection to do that? I thought the DCMA applied there (I assume there's an exception in it for that case?)

 

[Deist]

List of commercial video games released as freeware

1) If your "since granted freeware status" game is not on that list, then it is not freeware.

2) Even if it were free software, licensing may still restrict how it is redistributed.

Ok, so _once more_: the games I was refering to came from a torrent package explicitly targeting Freeware Games, containing precisely:

Adventures of Maddog Williams
Allegiance
Battlecruiser Millennium
Command & Conquer
Command & Conquer - Red Alert
Command & Conquer - Tiberian Sun
Dark Sun - Shattered Lands
Dark Sun - Wake of the Ravager
The Elder Scrolls - Arena
The Elder Scrolls 2 - Daggerfall

(+ a bunch of Amiga games that, alright, might not be all explicitly freeware, but let's be serious... I don't know of any reasonable forum around who would censor a post for merely ASKING A QUESTION about Amiga software!)

...So, all freeware games (just as I stated -- several times --MANY posts ago!). In all fairness I haven't checked though, that all these games in the torrent are actually the re-released (copy-protection free) versions of these games (hence my question), but whatever (refusing to answer my post on such ground would be way past ridiculous).

Anyway, nevermind... I came here to ask people more knowledgeable than myself about CD imaging formats, with perfectly good faith, and instead found myself having to prove and justify my very question again and again, even though according to your forum's VERY guidelines, my 1st post was in fact perfectly fine since (I repeat) I was NEVER requesting nor spreading ANY kind of material whatsoever (regardless of having explicitly stated and explained how the games I was refering to are perfectly alright to distribute legally speaking anyway).

Needless to say, I didn't come here to waste time, I can find better use for mine (don't you?). Having to clarify ONCE is fine by me -- as you can see I obliged and answered ZAP's first demand to more explicitly explain HOW my first post was perfectly alright.
But I can now see all the following posts just keep on ranting about wether the softs I'm refering to are freeware (did you guys just READ my posts I wonder...?)... And I've YET to receive any kind of answer regarding the TOPIC I started here.


All that said: DON'T BOTHER! I'm not that dumb you know, and have long since posted the same request on other technical forums just as respectable as this one but with people less pointlessly suspicious and more willing to actually provide help, and there my questions have been answered properly right away, thank you very much.

[EDIT]
Now in all honesty, may any admin here feel free to delete my account (as well as this post, which apparently was not to receive a proper answer ever anyway), since obviously enough I will feel more inclined to continue using other forums which didn't fail to provide me with the help I was expecting, and won't be returning to this one (unless I feel like answering some more useless accusations about the legitimacy of my questions, of course) -- fair enough, right?


Thanks for nothing anyway... Cheers! :thumbsdown::hmm::awe:

 

[Drsignguy]

Thanks for nothing? I personally do not think so. There are very educated and very wise people in the Anandtech forums and some are the smartest people I have never met. So, coming in the Forum and making 6 posts about Copyright laws and infringements is pretty much asking for trouble. This is to me “walking a very fine line” and I see that we here in the forums are taking the “high” road. I know you have felt that you have asked legitimate question, but seriously, is it something you really need to ask? There have been plenty of software and software programs out there in the past that have been pulled just because of what you are asking and/or trying to accomplish. Take for instance Napster, nice Idea, bad plan. People plainly stole music and distributed it illegally, period! DVD shrink, It said you can own a copy of the original so as long as you put away the original. So, with that said, you make a copy, let your brother, sister, mother or anyone else use it, then you are taking the risk of copyright infringement law and are at risk of being fined. You are a little fish, they look for the Big fish, but no matter what, the fine is still severe to whomever breaks the law.

Therefore my question is: to what degree does each CD image format preserve the structure and all that's necessary for any possible copy-protection (of course none of the games feature very recent protection schemes/DRM), or put another way: how would each format rank in a contest for the most identical image to the original support?
Is there a clear hierarchy in performance, or maybe there's both advantages and drawbacks for each?

Does anyone want to answer this question? Take from “Itunes” when you download a song that is 128 Kbps, it is pretty much CD quality. You can then format it to like 112 Kbps and it takes up less space but quality goes down. If you were to format it to 192 Kbps, quality goes up but takes up more space. Get the Idea. Now as for Games, I don’t know the formats but the Idea is the same as far as I know.


Making copies of “so called copy-protection free” games is something that you and you alone should know about and if that is something you need to do. Personally I can care less. The reason, is that there are laws and those laws are pretty much enforced. Do you really know the entire Law of the “do’s and don'ts? I don’t, and unless you are a Lawyer that practices in this type of law, then I don’t think you have a clue either. Be careful of what you say, you never know Who would be your boss or Who is watching and listening. Remember, you are a little fish and they too get caught. Good luck in your endeavors🙂

 

[Deist]

Hey Drsignguy!

Honest and fair answer you posted, so I care to reply here...

I realised alright that it is part my mistake here for mentioning copy-protections in my post. And part others' for their willingness to focus exclusively on that!
In any case, my point was NOT about copy-protection (so much less so that I don't have a clue anyway whether any among the various formats/versions I got for each game in fact have a protection or not). My point was about what format does image/preserve the most faithfully.
I mentioned copy-protections because, well, to be honest as I said it is possible some of the versions I have are protected (ie. are not the /released as freeware/ versions -- although even these sometimes retain their protections I know), but more importantly as the most extreme example I can think of for the degree of faithfulness to its source a format may need to prove to create a /perfectly identical/ image of it.

So, if it would have make people feel easier here, I should have dropped every mention of copy-protection altogether and just focus on asking what format is the most faithful to its source. It seemed honest to me and not being a hypocrite on my part to mention protections since the ideal degree of faithfulness obviously would preserve absolutely anything including any kind of copy-protection. But since that made such a fuss and led people to obstinately refuse to answer my very question, I reckon I should have drop that part alright.

Thanks for nothing? I personally do not think so. There are very educated and very wise people in the Anandtech forums and some are the smartest people I have never met.

Ha ha, that I certainly didn't deny, did I? Just lamented on the fact that for all their knowledge and wisdom, my questions were judged undeserving to profit the least from them, right? 😉

So, coming in the Forum and making 6 posts about Copyright laws and infringements

Once again, this is not what I did (and even less for 6 posts, mind you). Although I ackowledge my post may have been in part misleading on that matter.

I know you have felt that you have asked legitimate question, but seriously, is it something you really need to ask?

Need? Certainly not. WANT to ask, sure thing! And I still feel asking about the respective degree of faithfulness to source of the various existent disc image formats is a perfectly legitimate question, and purely TECHNICAL at that, with absolutely no need to linger like everyone did on the LEGAL side of it.

There have been plenty of software and software programs out there in the past that have been pulled just because of what you are asking and/or trying to accomplish.

Alright there, I'll recognize I'm with people that believe in free software (Richard Stallman's my hero 😉) and that technical knowledge should not be either censored or subject to copyrights. Regardless, if merely asking about it was so much legally borderline as you imply, I expect all the Daemon Tools, Alcohol 120%, PowerISO and co (that all implement features in their image formats specifically targeted at circumventing copy-protections by preserving structures and stuff) would have been pulled/seized by justice a long time ago, don't you think? Your parallel with Napster here seems pretty far-fetched to me...

You are a little fish, they look for the Big fish, but no matter what, the fine is still severe to whomever breaks the law.

Hear you on this, once more. And once more: I don't believe I was breaking any law with my technical question.

Does anyone want to answer this question? Take from “Itunes” when you download a song that is 128 Kbps, it is pretty much CD quality. You can then format it to like 112 Kbps and it takes up less space but quality goes down. If you were to format it to 192 Kbps, quality goes up but takes up more space. Get the Idea. Now as for Games, I don’t know the formats but the Idea is the same as far as I know.

Well, as you put it, you don't know the formats, therefore you know as far as I do about it, which is pretty much zip. I didn't want to satisfy myself with supposing that "the idea is the same" as with audio encoding (honestly I kinda guess it isn't anyway), I want to know more about these formats, which is why I posted in the first place.

Good luck in your endeavors🙂

Thank you man! :biggrin: As I mentioned I got lucky anyway (just not on this particular forum, ha ha).

 

[Drsignguy]

I am happy that you got lucky and hopefully found an answer to your question. I never said you broke any laws, just a fine line and that will bring up the red flags in this forum. I respect Anandtech and will do my best to keep it that way. No disrespect to you however. There are many voices in these forums that have earned their respect and I have to do the same with time. So, with that said "Deist", you seem to be educated, you just started here and I am sure you may have some very positive input. Do not let this question elude you for there may be many more questions that you may ask and there are many answers those questions asked that you may help with . That is what these forums are all about. No, I am not a MOD but I have seen my fair share of people in here that walk that fine line and they do monitor very well. Good luck and hope you continue 🙂

 

[Deist]

Fair enough, I certainly won't deny I walked a fine line here as you put it.
I appreciate your constructive remarks and nice reaction on this Drsignguy.

I imagine you understand why I got fed up to come here for tech info and end instead having to answer myself about legal reasons, so that I thought to hell with it, there's so many other places I can go to find the info I want (and actually did just that). Hence my harsh reply...

Nonetheless, I don't disregard this forum as useless and yeah, as you said, I believe I can get more from it next time as well as provide with my own humble 2 cents of knowledge hopefully from time to time.


Thanks again for your time and patience in your answers. 🙂