Causes of our current predicament highlighted in one 7 minute clip

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Trianon

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I have to say, I can't find any counterarguments to what Mr. Whalen mentioned in this short interview. So why are we wasting all this time discussing what could possibly be the reason of current poo-poo situation, instead of going after root of the problem?

Cliffs:
1. Origins of our current crisis dae all the way to WWII, when USD was accepted as world reserve currency. Manufacturing (value adding industry) was traded for housing (non-value-adding industry) as an engine of growth.
2. Americans started to rely on credit to achieve instant gratification, prices rose above what could be purchased on one income, with current price levels almost have to put kids to work to sustain price levels.
3. Housing is not an investment, it's an expense.
4. Banks will have to be restructured anyway.
5. "The Bernank" rules the world:)
6. Situation with housing and unemployment will get worse in second half of 2011.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5mfTVFMxNs
 
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LegendKiller

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Mar 5, 2001
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I have to say, I can't find any counterarguments to what Mr. Whalen mentioned in this short interview. So why are we wasting all this time discussing what could possibly be the reason of current poo-poo situation, instead of going after root of the problem?

Cliffs:
1. Origins of our current crisis dae all the way to WWII, when USD was accepted as world reserve currency. Manufacturing (value adding industry) was traded for housing (non-value-adding industry) as an engine of growth.
2. Americans started to rely on credit to achieve instant gratification, prices rose above what could be purchased on one income, with current price levels almost have to put kids to work to sustain price levels.
3. Housing is not an investment, it's an expense.
4. Banks will have to be restructured anyway.
5. "The Bernank" rules the world:)
6. Situation with housing and unemployment will get worse in second half of 2011.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5mfTVFMxNs

1. There is nothing wrong with being a reserve currency.

2. Debt hasn't become a large part of life only until recently and even then, leverage is not evil.

3. Housing is a fixed structure on top of land, both are assets. That asset is leveraged with debt that gets paid down over 30 years. Since the asset is worth something but is relatively risk free, it raises in price with inflation, maybe a little more. It is not an expense as at the end of the 30 years you have something that is yours, free and clear, all you have to do is maintain it and pay some taxes.

Pure expenses are things you eat and shit out or things you wear and throw out. A house is not one of those.

However, a house isn't a pure investment, as it's more of a place to live. The investment part is secondary.

4. Banks don't *have* to be restructured.

5. The "Bernank" doesn't rule anything.

6. Willing to put money on that? We are ambling at the bottom, it is unlikely it will get worse. Leverage, overall, is decreasing on a personal, commercial, and bank level. That's offset, somewhat, on a government side, but not totally.

Doomsdayism isn't new.
 

Trianon

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1. There is nothing wrong with being a reserve currency.
Except for the fact that it't fiat and controlled by the state with enormous fiscal problems.
2. Debt hasn't become a large part of life only until recently and even then, leverage is not evil.
Agreed, the concept is not evil, how it was used - different story.
3. Housing is a fixed structure on top of land, both are assets. That asset is leveraged with debt that gets paid down over 30 years. Since the asset is worth something but is relatively risk free, it raises in price with inflation, maybe a little more. It is not an expense as at the end of the 30 years you have something that is yours, free and clear, all you have to do is maintain it and pay some taxes.

Pure expenses are things you eat and shit out or things you wear and throw out. A house is not one of those.

However, a house isn't a pure investment, as it's more of a place to live. The investment part is secondary.
The argument is that basing economy on housing as investment vehicle was a mistake, not how much value there is in housing.
4. Banks don't *have* to be restructured.
You really believe that? What about all those put-back lawsuits and Fannie/Freddie troubles? I seriously doubt those will resolve by themselves.
5. The "Bernank" doesn't rule anything.
Really? So how come my bank account doesn't get credit when next round of QE or POMO hits the books?
6. Willing to put money on that? We are ambling at the bottom, it is unlikely it will get worse. Leverage, overall, is decreasing on a personal, commercial, and bank level. That's offset, somewhat, on a government side, but not totally.
Betting on anything in current environment would be stupid, I would love to see this drop halted, but from where I sit I don't see that many people recovering, just in last 4 months three of my immediate neighbours had their hours cut and stopped paying their mortgages.
One gave his keys back to the bank already. in our condo association over 25% of homeowners are in various stages of foreclosure/short sale, another 20 are underwater with thier mortgages. 200 units association, Chicago NW suburbs, used to be very stable neighbourhood, for reference.
 

Trianon

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Real Estate 2010: A Sobering Analysis
by: Pater Tenebrarum December 16, 2010
Pater Tenebrarum picture Pater Tenebrarum

We are happy to once again present an article by our friend and real estate specialist Ramsey Su. These are his observations on the state of the US real estate market as at end 2010 – they make for interesting, but as you might expect, also sobering reading. We can only concur with Ramsey that the policy of "kicking the can down the road" is not going to produce genuine recovery. It is time to face up to reality.

2010 Year End Real Estate Observations

As the year draws to an end, it is time to revisit some of housing issues and examine what progress has been made.

The best quote of 2010:

"The real estate market is like a steamroller moving at 1 mph. You are standing in cement 100 yards away."

The Hidden Housing Subsidy

For the segment of the population that decided to, either voluntarily or involuntarily, stop making mortgage payments, 2010 was a great year. The Home Affordable Modification Program (HAMP) and the robo-signing scandal probably gave the average household a few extra months of free housing, on top of the free housing period that a normal foreclosure process provides.

This housing subsidy is expanding to include tenants. Lenders must serve 90 days notices to tenants of foreclosed properties. The tenant can still challenge the eviction in court, buying even more time. I see no reason why every foreclosure is not going to be occupied by a "tenant" in the future. In the mean time, lenders are offering very generous cash-for-keys programs.

I have not read any reports that quantify this subsidy. My estimate, via the proprietary cocktail napkin formula, is about $100 billion for 2010.

This subsidy is inversely correlated to foreclosures and subsequent evictions. The big servicers are ramping up foreclosures again after fixing the robo- signing problems. As the number of completed foreclosures increases, the housing subsidy is automatically removed. I believe this subsidy provided significant support to the struggling economy in 2010. Withdrawing this support is going to be detrimental to society.

So far, displaced occupants seem to able to find alternative housing. No-one knows what percentage moved in with relatives, doubled up with friends, stay at homeless shelters or simply became permanent renters. Enough time has elapsed since the real estate bubble popped. Compounded by long-term unemployment, I believe there is a significant number of households that have exhausted all savings and alternatives. This may be one of the most challenging issues of 2011.

The Mortgage Subsidy

Rates are still low but the stimulating effect is over. The market has adjusted and buyers are accustomed to these rates. More stimulus would require a lowering of the rate, probably down to the low 3% range to have any effect. Any rate reversal such as that we are now experiencing would put an end to the market.

Bernanke spent almost $2 trillion initially to drive long rates down.

The $600 billion QE2 has no effect to date and there are only a few months left. I am sure Bernanke will use the "it would have been much worse" argument and declare success. The reality is that there will be no QE3, not with Ron Paul now as the watchdog of the Fed. Besides, Bernanke's credibility is as negative as the equity of a house in Las Vegas.

Systemic Failure of the Secondary Market

Another year has gone by with absolutely no progress in FRE/FNM/FHA (Freddie Mac, Fannie Mae and the Federal Housing Administration) reform. It seems like no one wants to touch this hot potato. In order to keep the secondary market alive the Treasury has to keep funding the losses and the Fed has no choice but to keep buying the junk. I believe neither the Democrats nor the Republicans appreciate the dire condition of the secondary market. I have not seen one single proposal that can stabilize FRE and FNM. The country, and the world, have no stomach for any more bailouts. I believe a collapse is imminent. It may happen the next time FRE and FNM ask for a handout and reveal the cost of the robo-signing episode.

Where is That Pent Up Demand?

Nationwide the average cost of a home is comfortably below $200,000. Using a FHA loan, $10,000 (in down payment) can easily move a renter into a home and have money left over for some freshening up. The monthly mortgage payment is just over $1,000 lower than rent in many areas. This is the opportunity of a lifetime. Everyone who can buy is buying or has already bought. The problem is that there are not many in a position to buy, not enough to offset the excess inventory.

It is not a fluke that existing home sales are 25% below last year and prices are not going up.

What is the true demand? There is no shortage of experts who would tell you that if you average this over that, spread it over X years, we can conclude we have a housing shortage. Just use common sense. How many units do we need in 2011, 2012, 2013? Bob Toll and Ara Hovnanian are two CEOs that regularly used the word demographics as the very definition for growing housing demand. They claimed baby boomers are going to retire and buy second homes, maybe even third homes. Population will keep growing and so will the demand for housing. Now that the boomers are at retirement age, the reality is that they do not even have money to retire, not to mention that winter home in Florida, which is currently dirt cheap.

The country is going through structural changes in population growth and employment. The changing demographics actually reduce the demand for housing. Sooner or later we must face the fact that the US economy does not need its current labor force. Furthermore, our labor force is not competitive against the rest of the world in terms of skills and cost. The nation has to decide whether to provide aid indefinitely or to pull the rug out from the unemployed. Regardless, the excess labor force is not going to represent home buyers.

If we do not build a single house for the next three years, there will still be plenty of shelter for everyone. Every house constructed is just one added to the excess inventory, further delaying recovery.

Unintended Consequences of Low Mortgage Rates

Bernanke on "60 Minutes" recently openly admitted that he did not see the sub-prime crisis coming. If he cannot see the obvious, there is no chance that he would understand some of the consequences of his actions. During the mid 2000's, almost the entire mortgage universe had been refinanced. This included many baby boomers who were at the last half of the 30-year mortgage they took out when they purchased their home. The refinancing bubble that resulted from the irresponsible actions of Greenspan reset the 30-year mortgage clock. All borrowers looked at was how the refinance lowered their house payment by $X per month, without giving a second thought to the fact that they have also extended the term to a new 30-year loan.

Another round of refinancing occurred when Bernanke pushed rates down to the 4% range. The only borrowers left who have not refinanced are those with no equity and/or are facing foreclosure.

Boomers who are reaching the traditional retirement age find themselves strapped with 25+ years left on their mortgage. Instead of preparing for the mortgage burning party that their parents had when that generation retired, they are wondering how they can make house payments on a lower income upon retirement.

Since this is just the first year of the boomers reaching 65, this is going to be a negative drag on housing for years to come.

Conclusion

2010 was the year of the World Cup of Can Kicking. Greece, Ireland, the UK, the ECB and of course the US all kicked the can down the road. Unfortunately, the can is heavy and the kickers are exhausted. Some type of catastrophic collapse is imminent. These are not predictions, these are facts. We know foreclosures are coming. We know rates have stopped going down. We know the Fed has not announced plans to support or drive mortgage rates down. Unknown is how extreme the bailouts may become.

That said, I actually believe it would be positive if there were a few major mishaps. If Greece or Ireland default on their bonds, it will free them of the ball and chain that hinders recovery. If the US real estate market collapses, maybe there will be true FRE/FNM reform, maybe the builders would be forced to stop building and maybe we can be on our way to a true sustainable recovery under the new normal, and maybe, just maybe, Bernanke will resign

I think this analysis is pretty reasonable, can anyone point out glaring mistakes?
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
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Not sure about his prediction of a year from now, but I more or less agree with what he said. His biggest point was mostly regarding overuse of Credit and the Home Prices/Construction Industry being out of whack. He didn't really offer any kind of substantive solution or ideas on how to fix that though. Other than Society needs to restructure itself.
 

Lemon law

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Nov 6, 2005
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Amazing, simply amazing, some jerk who works in the banking industry sees the decline of the USA as only a banking problem. When in fact, IMHO, banking stupidity is only a part of the total set of problems.
 

Darwin333

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Dec 11, 2006
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2. Debt hasn't become a large part of life only until recently and even then, leverage is not evil.

It isn't inherently good either. It is the application and amount that is good or bad. 80:1 leverage is fucking retarded.

3. Housing is a fixed structure on top of land, both are assets. That asset is leveraged with debt that gets paid down over 30 years. Since the asset is worth something but is relatively risk free, it raises in price with inflation, maybe a little more. It is not an expense as at the end of the 30 years you have something that is yours, free and clear, all you have to do is maintain it and pay some taxes.

The problem has been that housing costs have risen well above the rate of inflation for quite a while now. THAT is the biggest reason the middle class is "shrinking". The fact of the matter is that the median family income can not really afford the average house. Thats why we have been playing all these games with loans, so that they can sorta afford it..... for now.

Then we got a really big boom period and the people that are really really fucking good at math couldn't figure out that it was impossible for housing prices to rise at 10%+ a year for an extended period of time so they let people use their houses as piggy banks. Fault goes to both parties but it sure seems like only one side of that deal is feeling the hurt from the mutually bad business deal (and the fuckton of other bad business decisions as well). What say you?

Pure expenses are things you eat and shit out or things you wear and throw out. A house is not one of those.

Just like with leverage it isn't that cut and dry. Get a 30 year loan and pay it off as planned and you are correct, use it as a piggy bank or get the latest and greatest FMITA loan or buy at the peak of a bubble and it is an expense. Ask the 1 in 10 homeowners who can not sell their homes for what they owe if they have an asset or an expense.
However, a house isn't a pure investment, as it's more of a place to live. The investment part is secondary.

Completely agree with the first part. As far as "investment" I wouldn't even call it secondary though because if your house increased in value then it is likely the house you are purchasing after realizing that increase in value will have risen at a similar rate. Unless you are selling your house and moving into a cave of course.
4. Banks don't *have* to be restructured.

I guess they can just file bankruptcy and close up shop but most big banks are functionally insolvent. When you remove the legalized fraudulent accounting their liabilities are greater than their assets, what is that called again?

5. The "Bernank" doesn't rule anything.

What about the Federal Reserve? I know your retort so how about we agree upon "the main ruler"?

6. Willing to put money on that? We are ambling at the bottom, it is unlikely it will get worse. Leverage, overall, is decreasing on a personal, commercial, and bank level. That's offset, somewhat, on a government side, but not totally.

Yes I am but the problem is we couldn't agree upon the terms of the bet. The .gov has already spent a fuckton of money propping up housing prices and if they continue you get to claim you won but you really didn't. With enough money I can artificially increase the price of damn near anything, for a while.

The math always wins in the end no matter how much you try to fight it.
 

Trianon

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Not sure about his prediction of a year from now, but I more or less agree with what he said. His biggest point was mostly regarding overuse of Credit and the Home Prices/Construction Industry being out of whack. He didn't really offer any kind of substantive solution or ideas on how to fix that though. Other than Society needs to restructure itself.

Well, recognizing the defaults and turning debt into equity and restructuring would be a solution, don't you think? Creditors would have to take a haircut no matter how much they try to avoid it, and many people will get a chance for fresh start.
 

Trianon

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Amazing, simply amazing, some jerk who works in the banking industry sees the decline of the USA as only a banking problem. When in fact, IMHO, banking stupidity is only a part of the total set of problems.

He didn't say it was a banking problem, he said it was a "fiscal problem", there is a difference. And there are many more jerks like him, just no one bothers to listen, instead we get "we'll cut taxes and that will create jobs" drivel over and over again...
 
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