Originally posted by: dornick
Originally posted by: Nik
Originally posted by: dornick
I just wanted to say one last time that Catholic doctrine is NOT unbiblical. And to plead again that you guys actually read some real Catholic literature. Like many anti-Catholics out there, I have a strong feeling you guys don't have a real understanding of the faith.
God Bless.
Just because you SAY it's not unbiblical doesn't mean it magically changes, fixes itself, and becomes biblical. Catholic doctrine is NOT biblical and many have proven it in this thread.
Everything presented in this thread has either been a severe distortion of real Catholicism or misunderstandings.
I'm going to say this one LAST time. Read some Catholic literature! When you're familiar with the REAL Catholic church, then we'll talk. I'm done.
That's fair enough. I totally agree with you that a knowledge base is needed to compare anything. But, I have a feeling you just want to call me an anti-Catholic without reading what I have written. It's often easier to label someone that actually read/listen to their ideas and think.
Would you consider Catholic.org and the Catholic Catechism Catholic literature? I do. I read them, posted them, and contrasted them with Protestant views. I guess you missed it so here it is:
Catholic.org states:
"The doctrine of the sacraments is the doctrine of the second part of God's way of salvation to us."
"A sacrament, administered properly in the way established by Christ and with the proper intention, gives the grace it signifies."
"The Church Thus Teaches: There are seven sacraments. They were instituted by Christ and given to the Church to administer. They are necessary for salvation."
Okay, the Catechism teaches that the sacraments are necessary for salvation. No "distortion". No "misunderstanding". Straight from the horse's mouth. Let's look at what the Bible says:
Eph 2:8-9
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith?and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God? not by works, so that no one can boast."
Romans 3:23-25
"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood."
Gal 2:16
"know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified."
2 Tim 1:8-9
"by the power of God, who has saved us and called us to a holy life?not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time"
Romans 9:30-32
"What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone.""
So, to spell it out, Catholicism teaches that salvation is from Jesus + sacraments (works) while the Bible teaches that salvation is through faith alone, specifically not works (sacraments). Therefore, Catholicism is teaching un-Biblical doctrine. Simple. This is not even touching the thief on the cross. He didn't have the Catholic church perform any sacraments on him, but Jesus himself said that he would be in Heaven. Hmmm.....maybe the sacraments aren't necessary for salvation.
In the other Catholic thread I chronicled a brief history of the pope gaining power (both religious and political). This is part of the reason why Catholic doctrine is un-Biblical. A great deal of the Catholic doctrine is designed to increase the church's power over the people. If people can freely receive the gift of salvation through Jesus, they don't rely as heavily on the church for their spiritual needs. Along comes the Catholic church to try to take control of this by, basically, creating new rules in the middle of the game.
Enter plenary and partial indulgences. Pay the church and save yourself from some punishment. You can't do it on your own, you need us (the Catholic church) to do it for you. Power +1
Enter confessionals. You need a priest to be an intermediary between you and God in order to forgive your sins, despite the fact that Jesus died for us so we can have a personal relationship with God. No, you can't ask forgiveness of your sins by yourself, you need to do that in a Catholic church. That's the only way you will be forgiven. You need the Catholic church to do it for you. Power +3
Enter the sacraments. You need to do these seven things (all which can only be done by the Catholic church) in order to gain enough "Heavenly Points" and fill up your "Grace Meter" so you can get into Heaven. Yeah, this goes against scripture, but we have a way around that (see later discussion). If we (the Catholic church) can literally control the gates of heaven, man, we could really have control over these people. Let's just hope that they don't actually read the Bible and find out that it is only faith that they need. If they did, we'd lose a lot of our monopoly on Heaven. Power +10
I can go on, but the point is clear. The question remains, though, how does the Catholic church get away with teachings so contrary to the Bible. Simple. They made up new rules that state that tradition and rituals are as important as the Bible. Yes, tradition and rituals are made by man (in order to increase the Church's power as I just showed), but the Catholic church says we should follow them as much as we follow the Bible. Don't believe me? Here's an interesting quote:
Vatican.va - The Catholic Catechism
"both Scripture and tradition must be accepted and honored with equal feelings of devotion and reverence" Paragraph 82 from "real Catholic literature".
Let?s see what the Bible has to say.
Mark 7:7-9
"'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.' You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men."
And he said to them: "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions!"
Mat 15:3-6
"Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?...Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition."
Col 2:8
"See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ."
Wow. Even Jesus himself warned us about putting an over-emphasis on tradition. Paul wrote in Colossians, "depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than Christ" Sound familiar? Power -elenty billion
Now that I'm done with my mini, on-line Bible study, I know this was a long post, but there is some important information in here. If you read it all, :thumbsup:. Yes, I did read "real Catholic literature" as well as Divinely inspired scripture. I'll go with God's book over man's power struggle, thank you.
I also have not gone into all the other aspects of the Catholic church which go against scripture (see Mary, the Saints, idolatry, etc). I'm not anti-Catholic, either. The individuals are usually nice people who have been horribly mislead. If just one person reads this and even looks into the issue further, then the 2+ hours it took me to write this post were worth it.
Remember, I am not attacking anyone personally, just pointing out contradictions between the teachings of the Catholic church and Scripture.