Catholics possibly will end celibacy requirement for priests

[magomago]

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: Jaskalas
2: Perversion of sexuality, a natural aspect of being human.

It's not that sexuality is perverse. The perception of being "anti-sex" has been exaggerated, by both the non-religious and the religious. There is nothing wrong with sex itself, it is a gift in fact. The difference is the act in and outside of marriage. You can't deny the problems society has run into with rampant outside-of-marriage sex.

Agreed. Islam is VERY strict about pre maritial sex...but once you are married there is no problem with a lot of it, and unlike catholic rules that ban condoms, etc. sex can be for pleasure...although anal is still prohibited; but looking at it from a mechanics perspective I don't see why anyone would want to subjugated themselves to that

 

[TGS]

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: Jaskalas
2: Perversion of sexuality, a natural aspect of being human.

It's not that sexuality is perverse. The perception of being "anti-sex" has been exaggerated, by both the non-religious and the religious. There is nothing wrong with sex itself, it is a gift in fact. The difference is the act in and outside of marriage. You can't deny the problems society has run into with rampant outside-of-marriage sex.

Link

I think there is a larger problem with people not taking marriage seriously.

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: Jaskalas
2: Perversion of sexuality, a natural aspect of being human.

It's not that sexuality is perverse. The perception of being "anti-sex" has been exaggerated, by both the non-religious and the religious. There is nothing wrong with sex itself, it is a gift in fact. The difference is the act in and outside of marriage. You can't deny the problems society has run into with rampant outside-of-marriage sex.

The perversion is, as I understand it, that they?re not ever permitted to have sex. That ban goes against being a human being, which is separate from acting responsibly. That?s what I meant.

Is my understanding of their traditions off? I thought it was banned completely.

 

[tokie]

Originally posted by: AnitaPeterson

Originally posted by: tokie
I don't think this is a good thing (as an atheist). If a religion is to hold any value or possibility of being "real", then it should have the same traditions and standards as it practiced previously, and hold to them, no? Changing positions about such things lessens the authenticity of the church.

Pssst! hey dude!

Get yourself a book, read about Christianity... atheism is no excuse for ignorance...

In the Christian Orthodox system (Eastern Europe and Middle East), all priests can marry... in fact, they CANNOT obtain the right to be full-fledged ministers, i.e. officiate mass in a community church, unless they are married.

A much better system than the Catholic one, getting rid of sodomy, child molesting and other practices frowned upon socially...

This is the main reason why the Orthodox will never unite with the Catholics. This and the Pope.

Well, we aren't talking about the Orthodox or Anglican system are we? You seem to have some hate for Catholics, and you assume that all priests are rapists who do bad things. Heres a question: if any religion is indeed "right" or true, then why would they "change with the times"? That would just confirm that the religion is indeed untrue and that it serves purposes other than those which it espouses.

 

[dullard]

Originally posted by: tokie
Well, we aren't talking about the Orthodox or Anglican system are we? You seem to have some hate for Catholics, and you assume that all priests are rapists who do bad things. Heres a question: if any religion is indeed "right" or true, then why would they "change with the times"? That would just confirm that the religion is indeed untrue and that it serves purposes other than those which it espouses.

I'm an athiest too, don't give athiests a bad name.

There is truth. And then there are traditions. Changing a tradition doesn't imply changing the truth.

 

[f95toli]

Originally posted by: Feldenak
Weren't Catholic priests allowed to marry way back when?

Yes, celibacy was optional for priests for a long time (until 800-900, I don't remember the year). It was only a requirement for monks and nuns.
Back then even the the pope was allowed to get married and it is worth remembering that several popes actually inherited the title freom their father.
There is no explicit demand for celibacy in the bible. Moreover, there are already married priest in the Catholic church; if I am not misstaken priests that belong to a certain swiss(?) "subsection" of the church are allowed to get married; this part of the church is exempt from the celibacy rule for historical reasons.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: TGS

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: Jaskalas
2: Perversion of sexuality, a natural aspect of being human.

It's not that sexuality is perverse. The perception of being "anti-sex" has been exaggerated, by both the non-religious and the religious. There is nothing wrong with sex itself, it is a gift in fact. The difference is the act in and outside of marriage. You can't deny the problems society has run into with rampant outside-of-marriage sex.

Link

I think there is a larger problem with people not taking marriage seriously.

Well, we could argue for days which is a larger problem, but yes, that is also a serious problem.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: Jaskalas
2: Perversion of sexuality, a natural aspect of being human.

It's not that sexuality is perverse. The perception of being "anti-sex" has been exaggerated, by both the non-religious and the religious. There is nothing wrong with sex itself, it is a gift in fact. The difference is the act in and outside of marriage. You can't deny the problems society has run into with rampant outside-of-marriage sex.

The perversion is, as I understand it, that they?re not ever permitted to have sex. That ban goes against being a human being, which is separate from acting responsibly. That?s what I meant.

Is my understanding of their traditions off? I thought it was banned completely.

Oh, I didn't think you were referring soley to priests in that statement.

 

[piasabird]

I will not believe this until the Pope comes out and says it in public.

 

[bsobel]

Originally posted by: tokie
I don't think this is a good thing (as an atheist). If a religion is to hold any value or possibility of being "real", then it should have the same traditions and standards as it practiced previously, and hold to them, no? Changing positions about such things lessens the authenticity of the church.

Bear in mind that priests could marry for many years, it was stopped for financial reasons, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[1prophet]

Loophole allowing a Catholic priest to be married and endorsed by Pope John Paul II.

Finally, concerning married Episcopalian clergy becoming Catholic priests, "the Holy See has specified that this exception to the rule of celibacy is granted in favor of these individual persons, and should not be understood as implying any change in the Church's conviction of the value of priestly celibacy, which will remain the rule for future candidates for the priesthood from this group."

In other words, an ordained Episcopalian minister would make a profession of Faith and be received into the Catholic Church, and thereupon receive the Sacrament of Confirmation. He would then take appropriate courses which would enable him to minister as a Catholic priest.

After proper examination by his Catholic bishop and with the permission of the Holy Father, he would be then ordained first as a Catholic transitional deacon and then as a priest. If the former Episcopalian minister were single at the time of his ordination as a Catholic deacon and then priest, he would indeed take the vow of celibacy. If the married former Episcopalian minister were ordained as a Catholic deacon and then priest, he would be exempt by a special favor from the Holy Father of making the promise of celibacy; however, if he later became a widower, then he would be bound to a celibate lifestyle and could not remarry. In the future, if a lay member of one of these reunited parishes wanted to become a Catholic priest, he would be required to take the promise of celibacy.

And this is from the Bible:

1 Timothy 3

1This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

2A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

3Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;

4One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;

5(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

6Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

7Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

8Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;

9Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.

10And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.

11Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.

12Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

13For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

 

[JEDIYoda]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_church

Bishops are assisted by priests and deacons. Parishes, whether territorial or person-based, within a diocese are normally in the charge of a priest, known as the parish priest or the pastor.

Priests may perform many functions not directly connected with ordinary pastoral activity, such as study, research, teaching or office work. They may also be rectors or chaplains. Other titles or functions held by priests include those of Archimandrite, Canon Secular or Regular, Chancellor, Chorbishop, Confessor, Dean of a Cathedral Chapter, Hieromonk, Prebendary, Precentor, etc.

In the Latin Rite, only celibate men, as a rule, are ordained as priests, while the Eastern Rites, again as a rule, also ordain married men. Among the Eastern particular Churches, the Ethiopic Catholic Church ordains only celibate clergy, while also having married priests who were ordained in the Orthodox Church. Other Eastern Catholic Churches, which do ordain married men, do not have married priests in certain countries, such as the United States of America. The Western or Latin Rite does sometimes, but very rarely, ordain married men, usually Protestant clergy who have become Catholics. All Rites of the Catholic Church maintain the ancient tradition that, after ordination, marriage is not allowed. Even a married priest whose wife dies may not then marry again.

 

[GalvanizedYankee]

A short read, kind of an over view. http://www.futurechurch.org/fpm/history.htm


...Galvanized

 

[JEDIYoda]

thats a good read!! But it leavs out important facts. By leaving out those facts it implies that married priests are all over the world and thats just not true!!!

of course there have been Popes who have been married but again that is not the norm!!
In fact it just supports the popular saying-- don`t believe everything you hear!!

This has been a popular topic in other foruims as well as here...around here lately so here's a bit of information to give the subject some perspective:

-------------------------------------------------
It wasn't until 1139, with Canon 6 of the Second Lateran Council, that mandatory celibacy was officially imposed on all priests.

CANON 6 Summary:
Clerics living with women shall be deprived of their office and benefice.
We also decree that those who in the subdiaconate and higher orders have contracted marriage or have concubines, be deprived of their office and ecclesiastical benefice. For since they should be and be called the temple of God, the vessel of the Lord, the abode of the Holy Spirit, it is unbecoming that they indulge in marriage and in impurities.

----------------------------------------------------

Popes who were married

St. Peter, Apostle
St. Felix III 483-492 (2 children)
St. Hormidas 514-523 (1 son)
St. Silverus (Antonia) 536-537
Hadrian II 867-872 (1 daughter)
Clement IV 1265-1268 (2 daughters)
Felix V 1439-1449 (1 son)

Popes who were the sons of other popes, other clergy
Name of Pope Papacy Son of
St. Damascus I 366-348 St. Lorenzo, priest
St. Innocent I 401-417 Anastasius I
Boniface 418-422 son of a priest
St. Felix 483-492 son of a priest
Anastasius II 496-498 son of a priest
St. Agapitus I 535-536
Gordiaous, priest
St. Silverus 536-537 St. Homidas, pope
Deusdedit 882-884 son of a priest
Boniface VI 896-896 Hadrian, bishop
John XI 931-935 Pope Sergius III
John XV 989-996 Leo, priest

Popes who had illegitimate children after 1139
Innocent VIII 1484-1492 several children
Alexander VI 1492-1503 several children
Julius 1503-1513 3 daughters
Paul III 1534-1549 3 sons, 1 daughter
Pius IV 1559-1565 3 sons
Gregory XIII 1572-1585 1 son


--------------------------------------------------

A Brief History of Celibacy in the
Catholic Church

First Century
Peter, the first pope, and the apostles that Jesus chose were, for the most part, married men. The New Testament implies that women presided at eucharistic meals in the early church.

Second and Third Century
Age of Gnosticism: light and spirit are good, darkness and material things are evil. A person cannot be married and be perfect. However, most priests were married.

Fourth Century
306-Council of Elvira, Spain, decree #43: a priest who sleeps with his wife the night before Mass will lose his job.
325-Council of Nicea: decreed that after ordination a priest could not marry. Proclaimed the Nicene Creed.
352-Council of Laodicea: women are not to be ordained. This suggests that before this time there was ordination of women.
385-Pope Siricius left his wife in order to become pope. Decreed that priests may no longer sleep with their wives.

Fifth Century
401-St. Augustine wrote, "Nothing is so powerful in drawing the spirit of a man downwards as the caresses of a woman."

Sixth Century
567-2nd Council of Tours: any cleric found in bed with his wife would be excommunicated for a year and reduced to the lay state.
580-Pope Pelagius II: his policy was not to bother married priests as long as they did not hand over church property to wives or children.
590-604-Pope Gregory "the Great" said that all sexual desire is sinful in itself (meaning that sexual desire is intrinsically evil?).

Seventh Century
France: documents show that the majority of priest were married.

Eighth Century
St. Boniface reported to the pope that in Germany almost no bishop or priest was celibate.

Ninth Century
836-Council of Aix-la-Chapelle openly admitted that abortions and infanticide took place in convents and monasteries to cover up activities of uncelibate clerics.
St. Ulrich, a holy bishop, argued from scripture and common sense that the only way to purify the church from the worst excesses of celibacy was to permit priests to marry.

Eleventh Century
1045-Pope Boniface IX dispensed himself from celibacy and resigned in order to marry.
1074-Pope Gregory VII said anyone to be ordained must first pledge celibacy: â??priests [must] first escape from the clutches of their wives.'
1095-Pope Urban II had priests' wives sold into slavery, children were abandoned.

Twelfth Century
1123-Pope Calistus II: First Lateran Council decreed that clerical marriages were invalid.
1139-Pope Innocent II: Second Lateran Council confirmed the previous council's decree.

Fourteenth Century
Bishop Pelagio complains that women are still ordained and hearing confessions.

Fifteenth Century
Transition; 50% of priests are married and accepted by the people.

Sixteenth Century
1545-63-Council of Trent states that celibacy and virginity are superior to marriage.
1517-Martin Luther.
1530-Henry VIII.

Seventeenth Century
Inquisition. Galileo. Newton.

Eighteenth Century
1776-American Declaration of Independence.
1789-French Revolution.

Nineteenth Century
1804-Napoleon.
1882-Darwin.
1847-Marx, Communist Manifesto.
1858-Freud.
1869-First Vatican Council; infallibility of pope.

Twentieth Century
1930-Pope Pius XI: sex can be good and holy.
1951-Pope Pius XII: married Lutheran pastor ordained catholic priest in Germany.
1962-Pope John XXIII: Vatican Council II; vernacular; marriage is equal to virginity.
1966-Pope Paul VI: celibacy dispensations.
1970s-Ludmilla Javorova and several other Czech women ordained to serve needs of women imprisoned by Communists.
1978-Pope John Paul II: puts a freeze on dispensations.
1983-New Canon Law.
1980-Married Anglican/Episcopal pastors are ordained as catholic priests in the U.S.; also in Canada and England in 1994.

History sources:
Oxford Dictionary of Popes; H.C. Lea History of Sacerdotal Celibacy in the Christian Church 1957; E. Schillebeeckx The Church with a Human Face 1985; J. McSorley Outline History of the Church by Centuries 1957; F.A.Foy (Ed.) 1990 Catholic Almanac 1989; D.L. Carmody The Double Cross - Ordination, Abortion and Catholic Feminism 1986; P.K. Jewtt The Ordination of Women 1980; A.F. Ide God's Girls - Ordination of Women in the Early Christian & Gnostic Churches 1986; E. Schüssler Fiorenza In Memory of Her 1984; P. DeRosa Vicars of Christ 1988.

--------------------------------------------

In the Latin Church, one may be a married priest if:

* one is a Protestant pastor first; or
* if one is a life-long Catholic but promises never again to have sexual relations with one's wife.

Jesus explicitly chose married men as his apostles. Peter, a married man, was Jesus' handpicked leader. The epistles clearly contain references to married bishops and priests. For the first 12 centuries of church practice, 39 popes were married in addition to many priests and bishops. Three popes (Anastasius I, Saint Hormidas, and Sergius III) produced pope sons of their own, two of whom went on to be declared saints (Saint Innocent I and Saint Silverius).

But in the 11th century the starting premise was mothballed. Pope Gregory VII mandated that anyone seeking ordination must first pledge celibacy, stating that "the church cannot escape from the clutches of the laity unless priests first escape the clutches of their wives." The Second Lateran Council and Pope Innocent II (forgetting the example of his fifth-century namesake) effectively put a halt to the married priesthood in 1139.

The starting premise was chained up for centuries until June 1980 when Pope John Paul II fiddled with the lock. He made special pastoral provisions for married Protestant ministers who converted to Catholicism to be ordained to the Catholic priesthood, bringing along their wives and childrenâ??a provision that, to this day, most U.S. Catholics are unaware of.

Since then, 70 Episcopalians and an assortment of Lutheran, Methodist, and Presbyterian clericsâ??most of them marriedâ??have converted to Catholicism and been ordained Catholic priests in the United States. The practice continues worldwide. Cardinal Basil Hume of England has, as of June 1998, ordained six Anglicans, five of whom were married.

Clearly, the problem is not that the Catholic Church sees any problem with a married Catholic priesthood. The Holy See has affirmed this practice in both word and deed. The practice has been implemented without scandal to the faithful of the Latin Church. The problem is being Catholic to begin with. You can be a married Catholic priest if you started out a married Protestant minister. But you can't be a married priest if you started out Catholic.

The groaning you hear is the sound of a national bishops' conference straining to dance on the head of a pin. The reasoning simply doesn't hold. Plus one has to ask how freely chosen the agreement to be celibate really is.

By John Horan, dean of students at North Lawndale College Preparatory High School in Chicago and a married priest

 

[Seekermeister]

Celibacy has always been an opton for any Christian. The Bible does not impose this on any clergy. In fact, the Biblical requirement for a bishop or deacon was that of a married man with one wife, and with good home conditions. I am not fan of Catholicism, but in itself, the only concern that I have is that this might be a herald of other changes that might be brought about by the current Pope. As far as the homosexual implications, there should be none.