Catholicism Will Be,.. Outlawed??

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drebo

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2006
7,035
1
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What does it mean to "think for yourself" anyway? Either way, people cave in to societal pressures most of the time, and their way of thinking is a reflection of that.

Somehow, "thinking for yourself" means "atheist" nowadays. No, I'd argue that your enviroment shapes your thinking and acceptance more than anything else.

Grow up in a secular home, you'd be non-religious. Grow up in a Christian home, you'd be Christian. Grow up in a Muslim home, you'd be Muslim.

No one really "thinks for themselves" when you think about it -- your thinking is almost always heavily influence by your evironment.

The problem is that people don't form their own opinions. Whether you grow up in a home that follows Religion X, Y, or Z, once you reach a certain age you should be capable of evaluating for yourself whether or not you wish to continue to follow or believe whatever that is.

The Establishment (of Government and of Religion) does not benefit from free thinking, however. If people question what the government or the religion says from an early age, it undermines the government and the religion. As such, both government and religion condition people to not think for themselves. This is a problem, and it is typically perpetuated by religious fundamentalists (atheists included, as the non-religious fundamentalists) and I-Know-Better-Than-You liberals/progressives.

I know plenty of people who grew up in a Catholic home (and several other variants of Christianity) and now do not follow any organized religion. I also know other people who follow their religion blindly without ever questioning them. To the Christians, I say "What about Leviticus?"

But at the end of the day, if someone wants to think the world is 6000 years old and that Noah was a dinosaur wrangler...does that really matter to me? Do I really need to waste my energy telling them they're wrong? That some people want to legislate against such thinking is a far greater problem.
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
37,715
17,990
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What does it mean to "think for yourself" anyway? Either way, people cave in to societal pressures most of the time, and their way of thinking is a reflection of that.

That's a choice.

Somehow, "thinking for yourself" means "atheist" nowadays. No, I'd argue that your enviroment shapes your thinking and acceptance more than anything else.

I don't qualify "thinking for yourself" as being atheist. If that's what you want to call it, fine.

I do agree that your environment shapes your thinking, but doesn't mean you have to be defined exactly like your environment.

Grow up in a secular home, you'd be non-religious. Grow up in a Christian home, you'd be Christian. Grow up in a Muslim home, you'd be Muslim.

I think if you talk to enough people, you'll find this is a gross generalization. I was raised in a strong Protestant family, and for a long time I bought it. Now, I'm accepting of any religion that doesn't want to push it's agenda on others socially or politically. I don't practice any religion. I don't believe in a God defined by man. Is there a God? No one actually knows. Anyone that tells you there is in fact a God is a liar.

No one really "thinks for themselves" when you think about it -- your thinking is almost always heavily influence by your evironment.

It a choice. Accept what you've been given, or look at it from outside the "box" around you.
 
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ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
37,715
17,990
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That's not what I said.

What I said is that people who refuse to think for themselves and blindly accept whatever they're told by whatever governing body they look to are a plague. I also said that the people who refuse to let other people think for themselves (i.e. those who treat anyone religious or who doesn't follow their own religion like an idiot or second-rate person) are also a plague.

Thanks for clearing that up.
 

FerrelGeek

Diamond Member
Jan 22, 2009
4,670
271
126
What about the atheists who become Christians? That does happen, you know. Ever hear of CS Lewis? He's not the only one, mind you, but I'd wager that he was a far mor critical thinker than most on this board.

The problem is that people don't form their own opinions. Whether you grow up in a home that follows Religion X, Y, or Z, once you reach a certain age you should be capable of evaluating for yourself whether or not you wish to continue to follow or believe whatever that is.

The Establishment (of Government and of Religion) does not benefit from free thinking, however. If people question what the government or the religion says from an early age, it undermines the government and the religion. As such, both government and religion condition people to not think for themselves. This is a problem, and it is typically perpetuated by religious fundamentalists (atheists included, as the non-religious fundamentalists) and I-Know-Better-Than-You liberals/progressives.

I know plenty of people who grew up in a Catholic home (and several other variants of Christianity) and now do not follow any organized religion. I also know other people who follow their religion blindly without ever questioning them. To the Christians, I say "What about Leviticus?"

But at the end of the day, if someone wants to think the world is 6000 years old and that Noah was a dinosaur wrangler...does that really matter to me? Do I really need to waste my energy telling them they're wrong? That some people want to legislate against such thinking is a far greater problem.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,083
5,611
126
The amusing part of this is that the Catholic Church itself violated its' own Laws by perpetuating some of the worst Sexual exploitation of children in recent memory. On that issue alone one could make a case for the dissolution of that organization. I don't think it would be a strong case, but I do think that many would support such an idea. Not just Atheists, but many Theists and even some Catholics could support such an action.

At the very least I would argue that many important figures within the organization deserve to be imprisoned for their part in that perpetuation. That would have nothing to do with outlawing or even persecuting it though. It would be simple Justice.
 

drebo

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2006
7,035
1
81
What about the atheists who become Christians? That does happen, you know. Ever hear of CS Lewis? He's not the only one, mind you, but I'd wager that he was a far mor critical thinker than most on this board.

He made his own decision. I have no problem with that. Just as I have no problem with any Christian becoming an atheist or deciding not to follow an organized religion.

If we could see more of that, it'd be a good thing. People deciding for themselves, instead of people acting the way they think (or are told) they should act.
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
8,150
108
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That's a choice.

What's a choice?

I don't qualify "thinking for yourself" as being atheist. If that's what you want to call it, fine.

You may not, but internet atheists sure do, hence, the constant "I didn't raise my kids with religion...I allowed them to think for themselves" one liner.

However, I'd argue that a true free-thinker is a religious person nowadays because its becoming more and more unpopular among young people, and people want to be accepted so they'll simply adopt whatever the more popular view is.

A true free-thinker isn't a non-religious person, but a person who believes what he wants even in the face of societal norms.

More power to that person/those people!!



I think if you talk to enough people, you'll find this is a gross generalization.

Of course it is, and that's precisely why I said it. But this is the position a LOT of atheists take...that you're only religious because you were raised as such.

I'm glad you're intelligent enough to see that for what it is -- utter nonsense.
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
37,715
17,990
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What's a choice?

caving in to societal pressures.....dude, seriously.



You may not, but internet atheists sure do, hence, the constant "I didn't raise my kids with religion...I allowed them to think for themselves" one liner.

Big bad internet atheists hurt you feelings? They're tax paying citizens too

However, I'd argue that a true free-thinker is a religious person nowadays because its becoming more and more unpopular among young people, and people want to be accepted so they'll simply adopt whatever the more popular view is.

Argue that if you want, I don't agree.

A true free-thinker isn't a non-religious person, but a person who believes what he wants even in the face of societal norms.

More power to that person/those people!!

You're basically arguing against religion, since it has been the societal norm for so long.

A free thinker is someone who can see things around them for what they really are, not what they believe them to be.


Of course it is, and that's precisely why I said it. But this is the position a LOT of atheists take...that you're only religious because you were raised as such.

I'm glad you're intelligent enough to see that for what it is -- utter nonsense.

I'm sad that more people aren't intelligent enough to think outside the box built around them.

People are free to teach they're kids personal beliefs in their personal time.
 
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Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
8,150
108
106
caving in to societal pressures.....dude, seriously.

Hey, you didn't explain what you meant so instead of standing up a strawman I needed you to be clear on what you meant.


Big bad internet atheists hurt you feelings? They're tax paying citizens too.

??

Argue that if you want, I don't agree.

That's fine. But it doesn't have to be a religious person...it can be anyone who forms his own opinions apart from what society says one should hold.

That's how I'd define it, anyway.

You're basically arguing against religion, since it has been the societal norm for so long.

Right, and now its going down and people are going down with it. I think we've covered that point exceptionally well.

I'm sad that more people aren't intelligent enough to think outside the box built around them.

Like who, exactly?
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
37,715
17,990
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Right, and now its going down and people are going down with it. I think we've covered that point exceptionally well.

It's in no way "going down". Less people believing is not the same as going down.

I assure, religion, specifically Christianity, is alive and well. I see 4 billboards on the highway everyday telling me how wrong I am, and that I should go to church.

Like who, exactly?

You want specific examples? Cmon...Even if I give you examples you won't know them, it's people I know IRL.

edit: And most of the South :p
 
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Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
8,150
108
106
It's in no way "going down". Less people believing is not the same as going down.

With religion, it could be. With less believers, that means lower Church attendance, lower Church attendance means doors will close.

I assure, religion, specifically Christianity, is alive and well. I see 4 billboards on the highway everyday telling me how wrong I am, and that I should go to church.

You'd be correct if you saw them going up!!

You want specific examples? Cmon...Even if I give you examples you won't know them, it's people I know IRL.

Fair enough.
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
37,715
17,990
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With religion, it could be. With less believers, that means lower Church attendance, lower Church attendance means doors will close.

Matthew 18:20

So there won't be multiple denominations, with churches all over the place. Church is a man made construct, to facilitate a man made belief system.
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
8,150
108
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Matthew 18:20

So there won't be multiple denominations, with churches all over the place. Church is a man made construct, to facilitate a man made belief system.

if it only turns out to be "two or three", that means religion is all but gone.

lol
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
37,715
17,990
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if it only turns out to be "two or three", that means religion is all but gone.

lol

No, it's still there. You just don't have enough faith. You're counting on safety and reassurance in numbers.

Jesus never said the Christian life would be easy.

Are you doubting Jesus, Thomas?
 

justoh

Diamond Member
Jun 11, 2013
3,686
81
91
Since atheism is simply the lack of belief in gods, of course it doesn't mean they can't later become religious. All children are atheists until they're old enough to be brainwashed/abused in that way

So lacking religious belief says nothing about a person, necessarily. However, believing something on no evidence, something that's so transparently man-made, does say an awful lot.
 
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SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,001
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Since atheism is simply the lack of belief in gods, of course it doesn't mean they can't later become religious. All children are atheists until they're old enough to be brainwashed/abused in that way

So lacking religious belief says nothing about a person, necessarily. However, believing something on no evidence, something that's so transparently man-made, does say an awful lot.


Bullseye. But, that doesn't mean that people don't have that right. You are free to believe in fairies, unicorns, your god, whatever. I won't try and take that away from anyone, but I don't think any particular belief / religon should be endorsed by the government. It just doesn't belong there.
 

rommelrommel

Diamond Member
Dec 7, 2002
4,357
3,052
146
The people you're referring to are typically religious fundamentalists. Pretty sure I listed them, too, in addition to the liberals.

Pardon my suspicion of people that claim to be against all extremism but then call out liberals by name and post pics of Obama...
 

Cerpin Taxt

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
11,943
541
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What about the atheists who become Christians? That does happen, you know. Ever hear of CS Lewis? He's not the only one, mind you, but I'd wager that he was a far mor critical thinker than most on this board.

C.S. Lewis was influential, sure, but his reasoning is full of textbook fallacies. Just because he was very popular doesn't mean his thinking was without fault.
 

alzan

Diamond Member
May 21, 2003
3,860
2
0
Now if only I could get a penny for every time I read or hear this tired old cliche..

It's old because it's true. Countless leaders of various civilizations have used religion to control their citizenry on a macro level; but it's been used by even more at the "local" level.
 

Sattern

Senior member
Jul 20, 2014
330
1
81
Skylercompany.com
Even if people think about outlawing it there will be conflicts about prejudism if people want to get rid of something.

The world is messed up, if you don't like something you have no right to talk negatively about anything without other people sticking their nose in.
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
15,669
8
0
Wells since I keep hearing how there is no separation of church and state and there's no freedom from religion just freedom of religion. Just think how awesome it will be if the government enforces all religious edicts on the religious!


A Baptist gets busted for DUI, also gets busted for drinking alcohol period. Or hell gets busted for coming out of country western dance bar for drinking and dancing!

Mormons arrested/fined for drinking Starbucks!

Catholics prevented from buying birth control!

If your religion prevents you from serving gays at your business then there'd be fines for serving gay patrons. But also fines if you didn't serve gay patrons based on existing law!

Plus like I said, everyone attending a church's should be paying whatever tithe their clergy deems is right. So pull it directly from income or investments via the IRS.


Of course since this would still be the US you could sign an affidavit saying you are no longer a member of whatever church who's rules you are getting busted for. Your former church would be notified why you are dropping them and that they couldn't garnish your wages anymore for tithe.

Busting down that wall of separation will be great!

Sounds fun. Can we also apply the same logic to liberals?

So businesses owned by liberals would be required to pay their employees a living wage.

Liberals that complained about other people forcing their definition of marriage on others wouldn't be able to sue private businesses into support same-sex marriage.

Rich liberals(such as the clintons) would not be able to take advantage of tax breaks for the rich.

I am thinking maybe you dont want to play that game after all...
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,001
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Sounds fun. Can we also apply the same logic to liberals?

So businesses owned by liberals would be required to pay their employees a living wage.

Liberals that complained about other people forcing their definition of marriage on others wouldn't be able to sue private businesses into support same-sex marriage.

Rich liberals(such as the clintons) would not be able to take advantage of tax breaks for the rich.

I am thinking maybe you dont want to play that game after all...


You can sue someone 'into support same-sex marriage'?