Catholic Church and human rights issues

[randomrogue]

Such a large topic so to start I'm going to bring up 3 events:

1. Slavery
2. Nazi Germany
3. Homosexual rights

Historically we would say today that if you were against women's suffrage, abolition, the civil rights movement, and pro Nazi Germany you were on the wrong side of history. I've picked 2 of these and added a 3rd that is ongoing today. I was going to add the sex abuse scandal but I'll leave that to someone else.

Slavery is in the bible. It was supported by the Church. After 1500 years or so they started to be against the slavery of Christians but everyone else was fair game. In the 19th century books condemning slavery were still banned by the church and some were excommunicated for speaking about abolition. Even after the American Civil War the Pope made a proclamation supporting slavery. It was not until 1965 that the Catholic Church condemned slavery for good.

Nazi Germany was supported by the Catholic Church. Their political arm in Germany cast the deciding vote that made Adolf Hitler dictator. Bishops and Cardinals supported the Nazis and most were probably aware of the atrocities happening but remained silent about it since opponents of the Nazi regime were thrown in concentration camps. The Pope was in a tough position. They had legitimized and negotiated peace with the Nazis early on. What could he do that wouldn't risk breaking their agreements? He remained mostly silent unfortunately. After the war Church leaders helped Nazi war criminals escape to South America. It wasn't until the year 2000 that the Pope apologized for the Church's involvement.

The Church being anti-homosexual is still a hotly contested subject. I predict though that in 50 years the Church will once again find itself on the wrong side of history. The Church considers homosexuality a sin along with pornography, masturbation, and contraception. Somehow man is not created equal if you're a homosexual. The Church denies that this is a human rights issue.

So what's the debate? I ask a simple question. How can a Church like this still be supported? It's constantly on the wrong side of human rights issues. They preach the moral and ethical high ground but are not on the right side of it. Feel free to expand with woman's suffrage, the sex abuse scandal, reproductive issues, etc but I'd really like to see supporters defend these actions and a point/counter-point debate.

 

[Blackjack200]

So what's the debate? I ask a simple question. How can a Church like this still be supported? It's constantly on the wrong side of human rights issues. They preach the moral and ethical high ground but are not on the right side of it. Feel free to expand with woman's suffrage, the sex abuse scandal, reproductive issues, etc but I'd really like to see supporters defend these actions and a point/counter-point debate.

I think the questions you're asking get more to human nature than the Catholic Church. How can Scientology and Mormonism still be supported?

I think you really need to ask yourself why most people belong to a church in the first place. Yes, some think they have found god, but I would wager most are simply part of their church community and practice their traditions because that's what the group is doing.

I met a black woman last week that told me she was a member of the Church of LDS. That church was openly racist until 1978. Clearly being a part of a community of young people that were smart and ambitious mattered more to her than that.

 

[Bowfinger]

For all of its pretense about being something transcendent, the Catholic church (and really, any church) is rarely anything more than a reflection of the society it exists within. It is merely an institution of people, prone to all the same presumptions and prejudices and human foibles as any group of people. Whether you consider the Bible and other holy documents to be the work of God or the folklore of men, the fact remains that they are interpreted and applied by fallible men whose views are shaped by the culture they live in.

I think the most significant differences between the Catholic church and any random group of well-meaning people are size and longevity. Large institutions and long-standing institutions tend to preserve the status quo and are resistant to change. That is exactly what many people seek.

 

[CycloWizard]

I think it's important to distinguish between the actual teachings of the Church itself, the actions of its members, and how its teachings are portrayed by the media. Church teachings are generally based on a massive philosophical foundation spanning 2000 years - hardly something that gets covered in a news soundbite. This philosophical foundation is also difficult to fit in one's mind in its entirety with the end result that many teachings get pulled out of the broader context of this foundation to allow a person to discuss a particular issue.

For example, the Church's teachings on sexuality are probably its most maligned and misunderstood series of teachings. The fundamental tenets of this teaching are that sex must allow for both unitive and procreative functions to be considered morally licit. In this sense, "unitive" is considered to be between two people in a committed relationship while "procreative" means it must allow for procreation to occur. The reasoning behind this is actually pretty simple: the biological function of sex is clearly procreative (propagation of species) and the unitive aspect is complimentary in that it may maintain a stable household for raising offspring. Under the theory of natural law, one cannot morally use any bodily function in a way which is contrary to its biological purpose. Thus, the Church does not condone homosexual acts, sex outside of marriage (since it considers marriage a necessary condition for the unitive purpose), contracepted sex within marriage (contrary to the procreative purpose), or masturbation (neither procreative nor unitive). It will therefore never marry homosexuals because they cannot carry out the purpose of marriage, though it is otherwise one of the strongest global supporters of homosexual human rights.

All I have time to address now, but that should get the ball rolling...

 

[JEDIYoda]

So what's the debate? I ask a simple question. How can a Church like this still be supported? It's constantly on the wrong side of human rights issues. They preach the moral and ethical high ground but are not on the right side of it. Feel free to expand with woman's suffrage, the sex abuse scandal, reproductive issues, etc but I'd really like to see supporters defend these actions and a point/counter-point debate.

The catholic church back then is not the catholic church now! Plain and simple!
You make these issues out to be cut and dried yet you real;ly know little of the catholic church. For example Pope Pius.....but I am not going to go into any point by point exposition on this subject.

You have issues with all these subjects.

Those of us who have no issues do not see the need to defends the Catholic church.
Nor do we have the time.

The Catholic church will be here when we are all dead and gone.

To question why people would still support the catholic church based on a small amount of evidence that if somebody were to take the time you would see that your assumptions are well just that assumptions. Read up on Pope Pius XIII.....

All the issues that you mentioned are way more complex than you realize.

God Bless You!

 

[Murloc]

people support it because most people stay in the religion they've grown up with or become agnosticist but are still formal members (most Europeans fall in the latter category), plain and simple.

The only non-theological problem I have with it (theologically I disagree on so much stuff) is their persistence in embroiling themselves in italian politics, they're still exercising secular power. They also keep their priviliges that other states or religious institutions don't have, inherited directly from fascism.

 

[randomrogue]

The catholic church back then is not the catholic church now! Plain and simple!
You make these issues out to be cut and dried yet you real;ly know little of the catholic church. For example Pope Pius.....but I am not going to go into any point by point exposition on this subject.

You have issues with all these subjects.

Those of us who have no issues do not see the need to defends the Catholic church.
Nor do we have the time.

The Catholic church will be here when we are all dead and gone.

To question why people would still support the catholic church based on a small amount of evidence that if somebody were to take the time you would see that your assumptions are well just that assumptions. Read up on Pope Pius XIII.....

All the issues that you mentioned are way more complex than you realize.

God Bless You!

Another "you don't know what you're talking about" and "no" response rolled into one? Back it up then.

I used to be a Republican. I'm not any longer. It's not that hard to look at a "group" that you belong to and decide to leave it. I still vote just not with that party.

The Church is constantly on the wrong side of history. Today it's the sex abuse scandal. Justify that all you will. It's disgusting.

The Church still doesn't consider women equal and excludes then from priesthood. There is only one country on the planet that doesn't allow women to vote. The Vatican. Saudi Arabia just announced that they would allow it.

I don't understand why those in the Catholic Church don't find another Church to worship god in. It makes no sense to support an organization that is against basic human rights time and time again.

 

[randomrogue]

I think it's important to distinguish between the actual teachings of the Church itself, the actions of its members, and how its teachings are portrayed by the media. Church teachings are generally based on a massive philosophical foundation spanning 2000 years - hardly something that gets covered in a news soundbite. This philosophical foundation is also difficult to fit in one's mind in its entirety with the end result that many teachings get pulled out of the broader context of this foundation to allow a person to discuss a particular issue.

For example, the Church's teachings on sexuality are probably its most maligned and misunderstood series of teachings. The fundamental tenets of this teaching are that sex must allow for both unitive and procreative functions to be considered morally licit. In this sense, "unitive" is considered to be between two people in a committed relationship while "procreative" means it must allow for procreation to occur. The reasoning behind this is actually pretty simple: the biological function of sex is clearly procreative (propagation of species) and the unitive aspect is complimentary in that it may maintain a stable household for raising offspring. Under the theory of natural law, one cannot morally use any bodily function in a way which is contrary to its biological purpose. Thus, the Church does not condone homosexual acts, sex outside of marriage (since it considers marriage a necessary condition for the unitive purpose), contracepted sex within marriage (contrary to the procreative purpose), or masturbation (neither procreative nor unitive). It will therefore never marry homosexuals because they cannot carry out the purpose of marriage, though it is otherwise one of the strongest global supporters of homosexual human rights.

All I have time to address now, but that should get the ball rolling...

Once again "you can't comprehend this"

The Church's stance on Homosexuality is that it is is morally evil and sinful. "Under no circumstances can they be approved."

After Pope Benedict XVI was elected pope, the Congregation for Catholic Education issued an instruction prohibiting any individuals who "present deep-seated homosexual tendencies or support the so-called 'gay culture'" from joining the priesthood

The Holy See, an observer at the United Nations, opposed a resolution urging the decriminalization of homosexuality, which is punishable by law in many countries, including some where it incurs a death sentence.

In the United States, the Catholic Church has taken an active and financial role in political campaigns regarding same-sex marriage, spearheading in 2012 a failed effort to repeal Washington's same-sex marriage law and a failed effort to enact a constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriage in Minnesota.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_and_Roman_Catholicism#cite_note-52

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_and_Roman_Catholicism#cite_note-52

 

[randomrogue]

Relevant: http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/the-essentials-of-the-catholic-churchs-stance-on-c.html

 

[JEDIYoda]

Another "you don't know what you're talking about" and "no" response rolled into one? Back it up then. -- I did not say you don`t know what you are talking about.
What I said was you make assumptions and all your assumptions have another side to them. For example Pope Pius...and his denunciations of the Nazi`s...

I used to be a Republican. I'm not any longer. It's not that hard to look at a "group" that you belong to and decide to leave it. I still vote just not with that party.
The Church is constantly on the wrong side of history. Today it's the sex abuse scandal. Justify that all you will. It's disgusting. -- see you said the Church...you forgot to mention that many, many Catholics as individual Catholics do not support 100% what the church does or stands for.There are a lot of Catholics who are involved in Social Justice issues across the world. Yet does that mean that because the Church may be wrong that those individuals who Love the Church and are involved in Social Justice are to be looked down upon?

The Church still doesn't consider women equal and excludes then from priesthood. There is only one country on the planet that doesn't allow women to vote. The Vatican. Saudi Arabia just announced that they would allow it. --You use an example that you know will never change! Even some protestant denominations don`t allow women to be Pastors or even lay leaders. Does that mean they are against women`s rights? No...The Bible is very explicit concerning a woman`s role in the church and in the family. As well as the mans role.

I don't understand why -- perhaps its not meant for you to understand. Perhaps we leave that up to God??

those in the Catholic Church don't find another Church to worship god in. It makes no sense to support an organization that is against basic human rights time and time again.-- it makes a lot of sense to stay in an organisation that you are active in that supports the rights of the individual. You can`t pick and choose and try to make an argument against the Church and apply it to those who are working behind the scenes or even openly to change things!

God Bless

 

[JEDIYoda]

Another "you don't know what you're talking about" and "no" response rolled into one? Back it up then.

Did say -- you don`t know what you are talking about?
Please show me where I actually said that directly to you?

I told you my side and I asked you to look up Pope Pius.....

What you are asking people to do is just a waste of a lot of time directly point by point responding to you.

It should suffice even on this experimental forum for somebody to say there are two sides to every story or every comment!

Maybe when my real life permits I might actually take the time to address your grievances.

Just because they are not addressed does not mean they are not valid grievances.

Yet for somebody to say to you check something out...that in no way is demeaning or making fun of what you posted.

But on the other hand for some of us the past is the past and the present is being dealt with.

What you need to understand about being Catholic is that there are quite a few people who disagree on various issues with the catholic hierarchy and with what the Pope says!!

God Bless

 

[Charles Kozierok]

This is getting a bit heated when it doesn't need to be.

I don't think JEDI was making a generic "you don't know what you're talking about" comment. He was saying there are aspects of the Catholic church that you may not be aware of that might contradict the bad image of them presented here.

JEDI, rather than tell people to look up Pope Pius, why don't you tell us why he is significant and explain how that rebutts randomrogue's position? Then we can continue the discussion.

And BTW I will confirm that JEDI is correct about many Catholics not agreeing with their leadership. To a rather surprising degree, actually. I think a lot of Catholics are in it more out of tradition and culture than following the religious rules. (This is true of many Jews as well.)

 

[waggy]

This is getting a bit heated when it doesn't need to be.

I don't think JEDI was making a generic "you don't know what you're talking about" comment. He was saying there are aspects of the Catholic church that you may not be aware of that might contradict the bad image of them presented here.

JEDI, rather than tell people to look up Pope Pius, why don't you tell us why he is significant and explain how that rebutts randomrogue's position? Then we can continue the discussion.

And BTW I will confirm that JEDI is correct about many Catholics not agreeing with their leadership. To a rather surprising degree, actually. I think a lot of Catholics are in it more out of tradition and culture than following the religious rules. (This is true of many Jews as well.)

sure there are.

but the bad is so bad i'm not sure it really matters.

I find many people are more and more disgusted with the hierarchy of the "church". sure they are religious but sick of the hypcrits that run it.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

Andrew Sullivan is probably one of the best examples I can think of. (He's one of the most famous bloggers on the 'net, for those who have not heard of him.)

He's Catholic, and gay, and was "out" back when it wasn't fashionable, and refused to abandon his religion over his sexual orientation. It is obvious in reading his writings that he believes deeply in his faith -- but he's also absolutely brutal about the RCC leadership, especially with respect to the child abuse issue.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Andrew Sullivan is probably one of the best examples I can think of. (He's one of the most famous bloggers on the 'net, for those who have not heard of him.)

He's Catholic, and gay, and was "out" back when it wasn't fashionable, and refused to abandon his religion over his sexual orientation. It is obvious in reading his writings that he believes deeply in his faith -- but he's also absolutely brutal about the RCC leadership, especially with respect to the child abuse issue.

I have a dear dear friend who is Catholic and gay! He is open about being gay and makes no excuses.
My friend is accepted at one of the parishes where I cantor every SundaY.
I cantor maybe 5 masses on a given weekend in 3 different parishes!

Back to my friend -- He is loved and accepted by everyone. The priests accept his being gay!!

That right there is a real life example how the lay people in the Catholic church think and act at least in that particular parish different from what The RCC teaches!!

 

[CycloWizard]

Once again "you can't comprehend this"

The Church's stance on Homosexuality is that it is is morally evil and sinful. "Under no circumstances can they be approved."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_and_Roman_Catholicism#cite_note-52

I never said you or anyone else can't comprehend anything - only that you need to see the full construct rather than trying to attack one particular aspect because they are intricately intertwined. It also appears that you've limited your source of "facts" to Wikipedia articles rather than primary sources. You have conflated approval of homosexual persons with homosexual acts and/or marriage: these are distinct issues. Because of the overall philosophical foundation I already discussed, homosexual acts violate the purpose of human sexuality and is therefore immoral in the Church's view. Homosexual marriage implies homosexual acts; therefore homosexual marriage is similarly immoral. Homosexual persons, however, are persons rather than actions. Actions can be immoral. Persons are not actions.

To put this in context of the bigger picture of Church teachings, many things are considered equally immoral with homosexual acts: masturbation, viewing pornography, heterosexual sex outside of marriage, contracepted heterosexual sex within marriage, abusing drugs/alcohol, or plenty of other things. Church teaching is that all of these things are equally wrong because they all turn the body's biological purpose on its head in different ways. It's also important to realize that the Church's goal is to help people work through these issues and come to peace with them, let them know they are still loved, and that they can be forgiven for whatever they've done. The Church, like any other organization, doesn't always succeed. Just like all other institutions, all of its members are hypocrites. However, the role of the Church is to point to the ideal of what human behavior should be while recognizing that, while we may never achieve it, it is still worth working towards.

 

[soccerballtux]

For all of its pretense about being something transcendent, the Catholic church (and really, any church) is rarely anything more than a reflection of the society it exists within. It is merely an institution of people, prone to all the same presumptions and prejudices and human foibles as any group of people. Whether you consider the Bible and other holy documents to be the work of God or the folklore of men, the fact remains that they are interpreted and applied by fallible men whose views are shaped by the culture they live in.

I think the most significant differences between the Catholic church and any random group of well-meaning people are size and longevity. Large institutions and long-standing institutions tend to preserve the status quo and are resistant to change. That is exactly what many people seek.

wow, we have a lot of smart people here

 

[soccerballtux]

..

 

[soccerballtux]

Another "you don't know what you're talking about" and "no" response rolled into one? Back it up then.

I used to be a Republican. I'm not any longer. It's not that hard to look at a "group" that you belong to and decide to leave it. I still vote just not with that party.

The Church is constantly on the wrong side of history. Today it's the sex abuse scandal. Justify that all you will. It's disgusting.

The Church still doesn't consider women equal and excludes then from priesthood. There is only one country on the planet that doesn't allow women to vote. The Vatican. Saudi Arabia just announced that they would allow it.

I don't understand why those in the Catholic Church don't find another Church to worship god in. It makes no sense to support an organization that is against basic human rights time and time again.

hm that's an interesting point. I wonder if there is some huge social stigma to leaving the Catholic church, because they're sufficiently disconnected from mainstream Christians that you can't just up and leave it.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

I mentioned Andrew Sullivan earlier. He often talks about religion on Sunday and today has quite a few articles on various aspects of Catholicism that Catholics and others may find worth reading.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

Note:

This is a poorly sourced rumor.

I mentioned Andrew Sullivan earlier. He often talks about religion on Sunday and today has quite a few articles on various aspects of Catholicism that Catholics and others may find worth reading.

The Catholic church, over all, is good... but if this story is true:

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/0...unity-for-abuse-crimes-just-before-resigning/

Joseph Ratzinger, has a meeting with the Italian President, Giorgio Napolitano on February 23 to beg for immunity against prosecution for allegations of child sex crimes.

If I was Catholic I would have a hard time thinking of the church as anything other than a hobby.

I very-much hope it is false, and a misunderstanding of Reuters that saying that Ratzinger will now have

legal protection from any attempt to prosecute him in connection with sexual abuse cases around the world. A vatican official said "His continued presence in the Vatican is necessary, otherwise he might be defenseless."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/02/15/us-pope-resignation-immunity-idUSBRE91E0ZI20130215

 

[JEDIYoda]

The Catholic church, over all, is good... but if this story is true:

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/0...unity-for-abuse-crimes-just-before-resigning/



If I was Catholic I would have a hard time thinking of the church as anything other than a hobby.

Nice source you have...
Do you have another source from a well respected news publication..like say Timw..or Newsweek....or.......

 

[JEDIYoda]

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[Dr. Zaus]

Nice source you have...
Do you have another source from a well respected news publication..like say Timw..or Newsweek....or.......

Rumor was false

 

[Oyeve]

I have a dear dear friend who is Catholic and gay! He is open about being gay and makes no excuses.
My friend is accepted at one of the parishes where I cantor every SundaY.
I cantor maybe 5 masses on a given weekend in 3 different parishes!

Back to my friend -- He is loved and accepted by everyone. The priests accept his being gay!!

That right there is a real life example how the lay people in the Catholic church think and act at least in that particular parish different from what The RCC teaches!!

Then he cannot call himself Catholic. Its like the "Jews for Jesus" group. If you believe that jesus was the savior then you cannot call yourself jewish. If you are gay then you cannot say you are catholic as the bible clearly states its not allowed.

This, and 1000s of other reasons, is why I cannot and will not ever adhere to any religion.