Catholic Church Abuse or Abuse of the Catholic Church?

calbear2000

Golden Member
Oct 17, 2001
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Grabbed this off another forum... long read


With the growing momentum of clerical abuse being reported in the news, one has to question whether this is a growing problem in the Catholic Church or whether the media has become enthralled in reporting alleged scandal? Has it become fashionable for Catholic priests to molest children or has it become fashionable for the media to jump on any story involving sex and the Church? Obviously the latter has more validity. Afterall, it is easy for your local news team to report sensational stories which invoke rage and astonishment, while providing money-generating entertainment and ratings. Whether they admit it or not, the average American with the average attention span would prefer hearing about eye-catching headlines involving hypocrisy, sex, pedophilia, pornogrpahy, and conspiracy, rather than sluggish events in Afghanistan and our hunt for Osama bin laden. With media coined catch-phrases like "pedophile priests" and "Crisis in the Catholic Church" the scandal has been gaining momentum, perhaps without just cause.

Are there past and present Catholic priests who should be exposed and punished? Of course! Out of the 50,000 priests in the United States, there have been several confirmed cases of sexual misconduct, but not hundreds or thousands like the media is portraying. Have there been confirmed cases of cover-ups by cardinals and bishops? A couple, but not a vast world-wide conspiracy like you might think Researching statistics will cause you to seperate the allegations from the confirmed facts, and the facts are sporadic at best.

So why so many allegations and accusations? Some are undoubtedly valid. But you have to question "victims" who go directly to the media and lawyers before going to police. Perhaps it started when a Texas lawyer won a $119 million lawsuit on behalf of legitimate victims against a convicted priest in Dallas in the 90's. Or perhaps the famous case involving Boston priest, Geoghan and his "conspiring" supervisor Cardinal Law which garnered $15 million for victims. In this case Cardinal Law indeed tried to limit the publicity of the scandal by relocating the priest when medical and psychological evaluations conducted before the conviction showed that Geoghan was of no harm to children. These pioneering settlements sparked more lawsuits. The Catholic Church, which wanted to protect its denigrated reputation, would try to settle out of court even when there was no substantial evidence and allegations failed to become convictions. Of course, these out-of-court settlements were portrayed as cover-ups by story-starved reporters.

We have entered a money-driven cycle. The media reports any allegation involving priests, disclosing the full name of the suspected priest and the address of his Church and residence. Basically, the priest's reputation and career are destroyed, just on the premise of allegation and accusation and without the unbiased evidence of a criminal investigation. It has become fashionable to also disclose the amount of money the Church is willing to give alleged victims to keep them from going to the media, usually about $25,000. The public hears these stories, and people who have personal vendettas against the Church, Christianity, organized religion, society, flock to the media and to lawyers, often times forgetting about going to law enforcement. Afterall, "justice" to them is in the form of money and not a criminal in jail. The media gladly welcomes these new victims, and the cycle continues and momentum is increased.
In the perimeter of this cycle stands ignorants that jump on the bandwagon for their personal gain or satisfaction. Enemies of Christianity and organized religion, reporters with nothing better to write about, and even some Protestants pounce at the chance to join in the barrage of attacks to bring down the organized religion. This reporter writes "Is there something unique to Catholicism that makes it so prodigious at producing pedophiles?" (http://uspolitics.about.com/library/weekly/aa042402a.htm) This Protestant webpage proclaims "the Catholic religion is famous for the sexual abuse perpetrated by its ungodly priests" (http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/sexabuse.htm) Have either of these authors researched the actual convictions of clerical abuse or are they just spoon-fed media stories of allegations reported as facts.

Why the Catholic Church? Certainly pedophiles exist in other religions, schools, sports clubs, and anywhere else there are children. In a Protestant Church example, Southern Baptist minister, Fernando Garcia, made 26 videotapes of himself abusing numerous children in South Carolina. Did the media forget to report this conviction backed by concrete evidence and instead choose to report an unsubstantiated Catholic allegation? According to http://www.edweek.org/ew/vol-18/14abuse.h18, there are hundreds of sexual abuse cases daily by teachers, principals, and coaches. Many are daily convictions, not just allegations. So why is the media focusing on the less prevelant problem in the Catholic Church? 1) Because its easy. The Catholic Church is 1 large organized entity, with billions of world-wide members. 2) Because its profitable. The Catholic Church has money. Even though priests live humble lives (the average priest in the US makes less than $15,000 annually), the Church as an entity has financial resources. Thus the instatiable cycle hits Catholics the hardest. 3) Because its interesting. Americans are fascinated by the thought of celibate priests performing sexual acts on children, even if its just an unconfirmed allegation.

Obviously the Catholic Church is a victim in this cycle, both financially and in reputation. The legitimate victims are also undermined. With the new policy of openness from the Vatican, allegations will be thoroughly investigated both internally and externally. The people who have managed to illicitly profit from the Church's settlements have cast a shadow of doubt on any legitimate victim who seeks genuine justice. It is of further dishonor and insult to real victims when their efforts to seek justice and closure are being greedily twisted by lawyers, media moguls, and disgruntled members of their former parish seeking money and the downfall of Catholicism.
 

iamwiz82

Lifer
Jan 10, 2001
30,772
13
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sounds like a sympathizer wrote that. To say that it is not the churches fault is insane. Bishops have been covering up these things for years. Hell, 10 years ago a priest from the church i was forced to go to was caught molesting a boy. The next day, he was gone.

The police finally caught him this Easter, after he tried to molest another boy.
 

gopunk

Lifer
Jul 7, 2001
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Why the Catholic Church? Certainly pedophiles exist in other religions, schools, sports clubs, and anywhere else there are children. In a Protestant Church example, Southern Baptist minister, Fernando Garcia, made 26 videotapes of himself abusing numerous children in South Carolina. Did the media forget to report this conviction backed by concrete evidence and instead choose to report an unsubstantiated Catholic allegation?

while pedophiles are in many different organizations, very few, when made aware of the offending actions, would choose to simply relocate the pedophile to a fresh batch of children and leave it at that. the catholic church has a complex where it thinks it is above the law. it is not, and they are now painfully aware of that.
 

Heisenberg

Lifer
Dec 21, 2001
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I have a wacky idea of what to do with priests who molest children. Why don't we put them in prison like we do with EVERYBODY ELSE who does it? Nobody is above the law - priests should be treated just like a regular person.
 

calbear2000

Golden Member
Oct 17, 2001
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<< I have a wacky idea of what to do with priests who molest children. Why don't we put them in prison like we do with EVERYBODY ELSE who does it? Nobody is above the law - priests should be treated just like a regular person. >>



Thats what happens... convicted priests are put in jail.
 

Texmaster

Banned
Jun 5, 2001
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Of course its the Church's fault. In many cases they actaully shifted priests to different locations once molestation was discovered.

And the Catholic Church is not the only Religious establishment with this problem either.

Every Priest who had knowledge of, committed, or hid the truth of molestation should be expelled and prosecuted. PERIOD.
 

gopunk

Lifer
Jul 7, 2001
29,239
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<<

<< I have a wacky idea of what to do with priests who molest children. Why don't we put them in prison like we do with EVERYBODY ELSE who does it? Nobody is above the law - priests should be treated just like a regular person. >>



Thats what happens... convicted priests are put in jail.
>>




yes, that is what happens now, since media attention is brought there. previously, they were not even reported to the police, because the church thought it was above the law.
 

Tripleshot

Elite Member
Jan 29, 2000
7,218
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>>> the catholic church has a complex where it thinks it is above the law. it is not, and they are now painfully aware of that. <<<


No The Catholic Church has just said it will not do anything until the molestor becomes "notorious". That is pure cover up BS. They are not aware of anything. They wasted two days at parisheners expense to come up with yet another stall on dealing with the real issue. Abuse of power and child molestation.

They sure as hell didn't come away with a ZERO TOLERANCE policy, did they?:disgust:
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
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<< The Catholic Church has just said it will not do anything until the molestor becomes "notorious". >>

Yep, f**king atrocious.
 

Optimus

Diamond Member
Aug 23, 2000
3,618
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Guess who? :)


The main reason this has become such a large story is the evidence of coverups, moving suspected molestors, etc by members of the Church hierarchy.

This made a problem with a small percentage of priests into such a huge issue - because coverups are one of the worst things to do to a crime, espectially one of such a henious nature.

Now, it is important to note 2 things:

1) The priests who abused children AND the members of the hierarchy who were involved in any coverups were completely WRONG. But it must be noted that the actions of these individuals were completely and totally against the teachings and rules of Catholicism. They broke not only moral and civil law, but Church law as well. Therefore, do not hold against the faith or existance of the church the actions of these evil people.

2) It IS a juicy story as it involves such a scandal and breach of trust... and there is a certain satisfaction being taken by members of the media who resent the Catholic Church's teachnigs (especially on morals) - but overall I'm not finding it waaaaaay out of line. Comments by ignoramuses like Rosie O'Donnel aside.




<< To say that it is not the churches fault is insane. Bishops have been covering up these things for years. Hell, 10 years ago a priest from the church i was forced to go to was caught molesting a boy. The next day, he was gone. >>


Fault - the priests and even bishop(s) involved. Not the Church as a whole - see above.



<< the catholic church has a complex where it thinks it is above the law. >>


Difficult topic, but in the case of these abuses, the Church did no such thing. Again - individuals in the Church considered themselves above moral, civil, and CHURCH law... crimes they must answer to man and God for.



<< Nobody is above the law - priests should be treated just like a regular person. >>


The rules are that if the priest is guilty, they are dis-robed (no longer priests) and thrown in jail. They are no differently treated by civil or Church law.

 

gopunk

Lifer
Jul 7, 2001
29,239
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<< the catholic church has a complex where it thinks it is above the law. >>


Difficult topic, but in the case of these abuses, the Church did no such thing. Again - individuals in the Church considered themselves above moral, civil, and CHURCH law... crimes they must answer to man and God for.


when the leader of an organization makes a decision, the entire organization is often referrred to as a matter of convention. you could just as easily say america never dropped the atomic bomb on japan... individuals in the united states decided to do that.
 

calbear2000

Golden Member
Oct 17, 2001
1,027
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0


<<

<<

<< I have a wacky idea of what to do with priests who molest children. Why don't we put them in prison like we do with EVERYBODY ELSE who does it? Nobody is above the law - priests should be treated just like a regular person. >>



Thats what happens... convicted priests are put in jail.
>>




yes, that is what happens now, since media attention is brought there. previously, they were not even reported to the police, because the church thought it was above the law.
>>



If the alleged victim is going to lawyers and media without going to the police, that is not the Church's fault.

I definitely agree that pedophile priests should be treated like any other pedophile.
 

gopunk

Lifer
Jul 7, 2001
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If the alleged victim is going to lawyers and media without going to the police, that is not the Church's fault.

if the alleged victim reports it to the church first, and the church does not report it to the police, it IS the church's fault.
 

calbear2000

Golden Member
Oct 17, 2001
1,027
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<< If the alleged victim is going to lawyers and media without going to the police, that is not the Church's fault.

if the alleged victim reports it to the church first, and the church does not report it to the police, it IS the church's fault.
>>



If the alleged victim is going to lawyers and media without going to the police, that is not the Church's fault.
 

gopunk

Lifer
Jul 7, 2001
29,239
2
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If the alleged victim is going to lawyers and media without going to the police, that is not the Church's fault.

no, you are wrong. if the church is made aware of the allegations, it is the church's responsibility to notify the police. this should be common sense...
 

Optimus

Diamond Member
Aug 23, 2000
3,618
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gopunk:

The leader of the Church is the Pope - and he did NOT have knowledge or control over this.

I can tell you exactly what the Pope would have known - reports, rumours, and snippets of happenings. But he MUST trust his Cardinals and Bishops to do thier jobs unless he recieves some kind of hard evidence or proof otherwise.

He can't accuse and push Cardinals around without massive reason to - he can urge, extoll, and tell them to do the right thing.

I personally believe that the coverups went as high as the Bishop level - maybe one or 2 Cardinals as well.

Again - anyone directly involved should be dis-robed and prosecuted!

A side note - you know there have been popes suspected of murder and that had kids, mistresses? A good person as pope isn't a promise or tenet of the Catholic Faith.

Catholicism lives in each person - each person carries the faith.

All the Church is, is a teacher... and over time there can be real scumbags at the chalkboard if you catch my drift... the promise of Christ is only that what they write on that chalkboard (DOGMA) will be right.

Cheers!

Optimus
 

calbear2000

Golden Member
Oct 17, 2001
1,027
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0


<< If the alleged victim is going to lawyers and media without going to the police, that is not the Church's fault.

no, you are wrong. if the church is made aware of the allegations, it is the church's responsibility to notify the police. this should be common sense...
>>



Ok let me repeat my statement for a 3rd time:
If the alleged victim is going to lawyers and media without going to the police, that is not the Church's fault

I said this when you claimed thats its not reported to the police because the Church is above the law.
 

Optimus

Diamond Member
Aug 23, 2000
3,618
0
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<< if the church is made aware of the allegations, it is the church's responsibility to notify the police. this should be common sense... >>



Indeed - it is part of the new guidelines designed to make sure this crap never happens again.

 

gopunk

Lifer
Jul 7, 2001
29,239
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The leader of the Church is the Pope - and he did NOT have knowledge or control over this.

yes, i know this... however it is my understanding that the american catholic church has been effectively separate from the roman catholic church from some time. furthermore, when they are as high as cardinals and bishops, i still think it's okay to just say "the church". i mean, i could say "the american branch of the catholic church" but that would take too much effort. sorry ;)

A side note - you know there have been popes suspected of murder and that had kids, mistresses? A good person as pope isn't a promise or tenet of the Catholic Faith.

yes i do. i don't believe the faith itself to be "the church". i use "the church" to signify the organization, not the beliefs.
 

gopunk

Lifer
Jul 7, 2001
29,239
2
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Ok let me repeat my statement for a 3rd time:
If the alleged victim is going to lawyers and media without going to the police, that is not the Church's fault
I said this when you claimed thats its not reported to the police because the Church is above the law.


you don't have to repeat it, i'm just going to tell you you're wrong again. it IS the church's fault. the individual should have went to the police, i agree. however, the church ALSO had an obligation to report it to the police. the church did not, for whatever reason. just because the individual did something wrong and did not go to the police, does not mean that the church is absolved of its responsibility.

 

calbear2000

Golden Member
Oct 17, 2001
1,027
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<< Ok let me repeat my statement for a 3rd time:
If the alleged victim is going to lawyers and media without going to the police, that is not the Church's fault
I said this when you claimed thats its not reported to the police because the Church is above the law.


you don't have to repeat it, i'm just going to tell you you're wrong again. it IS the church's fault. the individual should have went to the police, i agree. however, the church ALSO had an obligation to report it to the police. the church did not, for whatever reason. just because the individual did something wrong and did not go to the police, does not mean that the church is absolved of its responsibility.
>>



You're reading way to far into a simple statement:
If the alleged victim is going to lawyers and media without going to the police, that is not the Church's fault
I said this when you claimed thats its not reported to the police because the Church is above the law

Please understand what I am saying and don't put words into my mouth.

 

gopunk

Lifer
Jul 7, 2001
29,239
2
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You're reading way to far into a simple statement:
If the alleged victim is going to lawyers and media without going to the police, that is not the Church's fault
I said this when you claimed thats its not reported to the police because the Church is above the law
Please understand what I am saying and don't put words into my mouth.


okay, you're right. i was wrong. to clarify things, i do not mean to imply that the church should report crimes it is not aware of. i thought this was obvious and that i could go ahead and post without making this explicitly clear, but i guess not.

my post was made in the context of the recent events, where people go to the church, make the allegations, and the church did jack squat.
 

Optimus

Diamond Member
Aug 23, 2000
3,618
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gopunk:

Actually the Catholic Church in America is completely part of the rest of the Church and subject to Rome... but there is a great deal of autonomy given to each Cardinal - just plain necessity in a global church. :)

Really the issue with using "the Church" is that it is a broad term - I get what you are reffering to, but another reader of the thread may well not, y'know?

Its because the Catholic Faith ties the Church as an entity so intrinsically into itself... lemme try to explain:

The Church, as is necessary to the Catholic faith, can be reduced to its core of the Pope, when he is speaking on Dogma. That and that alone is enough. Now that core, that kernel - is beyond reproach in this and any scandal, even one commited by a Pope himself. Because it doesn't rely on the Pope as a person, or when he's on the can, or when he's eating Mac n Cheese - only when he officially speaks on Dogma and Doctrine.

Everything else in the Church is done under that authority of the Pope in Rome...

(side note - it is part of our core faith that we should obey the Church in matters of tradition, although that is a matter of obedience, not faith and morals)

So that CHURCH, the one protestantism broke away from when they rejected the authority of Rome, that I sometimes feel I need to stand up for and mention that it is beyond reproach... you see?

Complicated stuff really, but as long as people can differentiate between Catholicism and the existance of our Church's authority over Catholics with the individuals in the Church - especially when they are in the wrong.

Cheers!
:)
 

Optimus

Diamond Member
Aug 23, 2000
3,618
0
0


<< No The Catholic Church has just said it will not do anything until the molestor becomes "notorious". That is pure cover up BS. They are not aware of anything. They wasted two days at parisheners expense to come up with yet another stall on dealing with the real issue. Abuse of power and child molestation.

They sure as hell didn't come away with a ZERO TOLERANCE policy, did they?
>>



HOT DAMN - this really pushes my buttons. I cannot understand why the Cardinals would have this attitude unless its one of 2 things:

1) Open defiance of Rome - this could happen...things have been brewing and it would be a HUGE mess.

OR

2) They are stalling for time to make a decision that they feel they arrived at free from pressure.


Now, I'm only going by how its written on MSNBC at this time and I need to investigate further, but at its face value I cannot agree with the Cardinals on this one (yes, you can do that and still be fully Catholic).

If its a case of #1 then I hope the Pope wreaks some serious consequences on thier collective arses

If its #2, then they'd better do something in the meantime to insure safety for everyone - suspend any priest accused.


Now, this may also be a power thing - that the Cardinals are backing away from dictating policy to the Bishops... could happen too.


I'll tell you something - the policy in my diocese (area) under my Bishop is that as soon as accusations are made, the priest is suspended completely, authorities are notified, investigations by both civil and Church authorities take place, and if convicted (or enough evidence) thent he priest is disrobed and sent to jail. If exhonerated, then the priest is reinstated (as he should be!).

I want to see this policy made Church law across the board - not left up to each Bishop to adopt.
 

Ronstang

Lifer
Jul 8, 2000
12,493
18
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<< << The Catholic Church has just said it will not do anything until the molestor becomes "notorious". >> >>



THis reminds me of something I saw in a news conference the other day. It was a Catholic Bishop/Cardinal or whatever (I didn't watch long enough to find out) and he was saying how we really need to distinguish between the Priest who has sexual contact with young children 4 or 5 years of age and the Priest who has sex with an 18 or 19 year old boy who shares a mutual attraction and acts in a consensual manner.

What is wrong with this picture? Aren't Priests supposed to be celibate? Isn't that part of their vows? If these Priests having consensual adult homosexual sex don't take their vows seriosly, and obviously the Church doesn't either, why should anyone take the Catholic Church seriously? The Catholic Church has proven time and time again that is does not feel that it has to answer to ANYONE and this is just another fine example of what lenghts the Church will go to to protect itself while showing absolutely no concern for it's members.