Caterpillar to IL, stop it or we leave

[ShawnD1]

Charles G. Koch co-founded the Cato Institute, a libertarian think tank based in *snip*

Calling it corporate propaganda is being kind. Bullshit partisan economics is more like it.

If you guys are actually reading/buying that shit I hate to tell ya, but you've been played.

Being written by someone with political motivations doesn't mean it's wrong. Socialized medicine in Canada was proposed by a socialist (obviously) and it turned out to be a good idea. Privatizing liquor stores in my province was suggested by a conservative (obviously) and that too was a good idea.

 

[JS80]

That's how the rest of the world works. Japan, German, Norway, Netherlands, Canada, South Korea all have positive trade balances by encouraging domestic production. Goods in those countries are very expensive because everything is either made in country or it has high taxes on it because it's an import.

Typical spoiled brat. You have no idea how difficult it is to make a living in SK unless you are an elite born to royalty or won the IQ lottery.

 

[CycloWizard]

Except that the incentive for domestic production would create jobs locally and improve the economic situation of the United States over the long term.

In the short term budget shortfalls would be closed by revenue from tarriffs, thus preventing severe goverment layoffs.

From a jobs perspective the US stands to benefit fantastically from protectionist policies against 3rd world labor.

The only relevant claim against it i have seen, is that it will likely destabilize things in China, India, and Sub-Saharan Africa where we are employing our slaves.

It would create jobs locally as I already stated. The problem is that those jobs are legally required to have wages which correspond to above-market value for the labor performed. You are constricting the market, thereby driving up prices. The amount of the increase will depend on the wage disparity minus the difference in transportation costs. There will also be a time lag between the implementation of the tariff and local job growth, while the price of goods would rise instantly. That interim period would hammer everyone in the lower to middle classes.

 

[senseamp]

That was my point. What other industry can arbitrarily raise rates by 66% overnight and offer nothing in return?

Healthcare.

 

[CycloWizard]

Healthcare.

And at what point will you stop paying to be treated at a hospital? If you're bleeding out on the floor of the ER, how much is too much to spend to save you? Or is healthcare a right and doctors should just do what they do out of the goodness of their hearts? What if they refuse?

 

[ShawnD1]

Typical spoiled brat. You have no idea how difficult it is to make a living in SK unless you are an elite born to royalty or won the IQ lottery.

According to the CIA, the average Korean is slightly richer than the average New Zealander, slightly poorer than the average French and Italian. If it were really such a horrible place, it would show up in one of the stats.

 

[JS80]

According to the CIA, the average Korean is slightly richer than the average New Zealander, slightly poorer than the average French and Italian. If it were really such a horrible place, it would show up in one of the stats.

Cost of living, quality of life, hours worked, distribution of income, etc etc etc

I think I know my own people more than you

 

[yllus]

According to the CIA, the average Korean is slightly richer than the average New Zealander, slightly poorer than the average French and Italian. If it were really such a horrible place, it would show up in one of the stats.

It's really hard to get work visas in all of those countries.

 

[senseamp]

And at what point will you stop paying to be treated at a hospital? If you're bleeding out on the floor of the ER, how much is too much to spend to save you? Or is healthcare a right and doctors should just do what they do out of the goodness of their hearts? What if they refuse?

We are spending 2x as much to get worse results than developed countries.

 

[ShawnD1]

Cost of living, quality of life, hours worked, distribution of income, etc etc etc

I think I know my own people more than you

PPP includes cost of living, and soko's Gini (income equality) index is the same as Canada.

Does Korea have US style ghettos?

 

[Acanthus]

It would create jobs locally as I already stated. The problem is that those jobs are legally required to have wages which correspond to above-market value for the labor performed. You are constricting the market, thereby driving up prices. The amount of the increase will depend on the wage disparity minus the difference in transportation costs. There will also be a time lag between the implementation of the tariff and local job growth, while the price of goods would rise instantly. That interim period would hammer everyone in the lower to middle classes.

Prices are artificially low because we employ slaves overseas.

Bringing jobs home will more than make up for the price increases.

 

[BoberFett]

What other industry can arbitrarily raise rates by 66% overnight and offer nothing in return?

Telecoms.

Government granted monopolies

Agri-business.

Government price supports.

Insurance.

Government mandated.

I see a pattern...

 

[Acanthus]

Being written by someone with political motivations doesn't mean it's wrong. Socialized medicine in Canada was proposed by a socialist (obviously) and it turned out to be a good idea. Privatizing liquor stores in my province was suggested by a conservative (obviously) and that too was a good idea.

That is a different issue than using slanted economics to justify your partisan claims.

All partisan think tanks do is lend credibility to the cause they were paid to support. Often an "any means necessary approach" is used.

 

[Acanthus]

snip.

I see a pattern...

Me too, reform is needed.

 

[BoberFett]

Me too, reform is needed.

Agreed. Unfortunately the only answer coming from Democrats seems to be more government, not changed government.

 

[CycloWizard]

We are spending 2x as much to get worse results than developed countries.

That doesn't answer my question.

 

[CycloWizard]

Prices are artificially low because we employ slaves overseas.

Bringing jobs home will more than make up for the price increases.

We don't own slaves - we pay wages as dictated by the market. If you can't even acknowledge that simple fact, kill yourself.

 

[senseamp]

That doesn't answer my question.

Your question is exactly why free markets don't work in health care. One of the parties is under duress. It's no more free market than a highway robbery. Pay up or die. The answer is strict government regulation to prevent gouging and subsidies.

 

[nonlnear]

Your question is exactly why free markets don't work in health care. One of the parties is under duress. It's no more free market than a highway robbery. Pay up or die. The answer is strict government regulation to prevent gouging and subsidies.

That's simply not true. Duress is only barely plausible for ER visits. The reason free and competitive markets "don't work" in health care is that they aren't allowed to exist.

Of course the other side of that that many people who like to blindly repeat the "free market" mantra (often without knowing what a free market is in economic terms) miss is that a competitive market requires regulation to... prevent gouging and subsidies, as well as ensure reasonably complete information. What we have instead is government regulation institutionalizing gouging and subsidies, and restricting choice. (Don't get me wrong, corporations love to gouge and lobby for subsidies too, but they are only able to do so when legislators allow it.)

 

[CycloWizard]

Your question is exactly why free markets don't work in health care. One of the parties is under duress. It's no more free market than a highway robbery. Pay up or die. The answer is strict government regulation to prevent gouging and subsidies.

Your theory only holds as long as every physician in the world colludes to jack up prices. Since they want to eat, they will eventually break down and help you as long as you can pay them. The price for their help, then, depends on how little the other physicians are willing to take to perform a service. Of course, this is only in the absence of government interference. In our current system, prices are generally set by government at arbitrary levels dictated by bureaucrats rather than anything to do with the procedure itself or how much physicians want to charge. This is the exact same thing nonlnear stated (much more eloquently).

 

[Acanthus]

We don't own slaves - we pay wages as dictated by the market. If you can't even acknowledge that simple fact, kill yourself.

This coming from a person who advocates abolishing the minimum wage.

Laughable.

 

[CycloWizard]

This coming from a person who advocates abolishing the minimum wage.

Laughable.

So it's slavery when both the employer and employee can agree upon a wage, but it's freedom when government fines or imprisons someone for agreeing to a wage below the minimum. Gotcha.

 

[senseamp]

Your theory only holds as long as every physician in the world colludes to jack up prices. Since they want to eat, they will eventually break down and help you as long as you can pay them. The price for their help, then, depends on how little the other physicians are willing to take to perform a service. Of course, this is only in the absence of government interference. In our current system, prices are generally set by government at arbitrary levels dictated by bureaucrats rather than anything to do with the procedure itself or how much physicians want to charge. This is the exact same thing nonlnear stated (much more eloquently).

Yes, people bleeding to death in the ER are going to shop around until they find a physician who will treat them for what they are willing to pay.
In your free market pipe dream.

 

[CycloWizard]

Yes, people bleeding to death in the ER are going to shop around until they find a physician who will treat them for what they are willing to pay.
In your free market pipe dream.

In your world, someone will go train to treat you for a decade simply for the privilege of saving your ass.

 

[Zorkorist]

A tenant of Free Market economies, is that a person does what is best for him. A Doctor, has long ago made the decision that he would like to help people.

Whether he makes any money on saving a persons life, is secondary to a Doctor. His only real interest is saving someones life.

This really isn't much different from any profession. You do the profession because you love it.

It's only Insurance, and Lawyers, and Government, that step in and tell you how you must treat a patient, bill a patient, interact with a patient, when things go wrong.

-John