Caterpillar to IL, stop it or we leave

[thraashman]

The problem here is extremes. Obviously 66% is excessive to an extreme and was a very bad policy choice. Raising taxes isn't this horrible thing, but there has to be reason when picking an amount.

However the Republican alternative has been proven time and again to not work. The Republican option is cut taxes for the rich as much as possible but then villify notoriously underpaid jobs like teachers and cut their benefits to pay for the tax cuts to the rich. They keep saying we're sure if we give the rich back more money that they'll create jobs with it. Then when they don't create those new jobs and someone wants to increase the taxes back to the previous levels you hear the Republicans bitch that if you increase taxes on the rich they won't create new jobs! Well they already aren't creating new jobs, they didn't when you cut the taxes, they won't if you cut them again!

Right about now the Republicans remind me of that phrase that George W Bush infamously screwed up. "Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me." However now it's more like "Fool my 5 times ... I'm sure if we cut your taxes again you'll do right by the people THIS time!"

 

[Acanthus]

Yes. And that is how free market works. Its beautiful.

No, it isn't.

Corporations pay on average less tax than the middle class. Boo-hoo.

Protectionism is how you stop assholes from hiring slaves overseas.

 

[ShawnD1]

No, it isn't.

Corporations pay on average less tax than the middle class. Boo-hoo.

Protectionism is how you stop assholes from hiring slaves overseas.

This. This. This.

On a federal level, protectionism is hardcore important. On a state level you can dick around and give tax incentives so companies pick your state, but on a federal level protectionism is all you can really do. Without protectionism, you could drop the tax rate to 0% and it would still be cheaper to operate in China.

 

[Acanthus]

like hell they aren't. come south of your glass house below I80 and see.

Downstate CAT is huge. Whole towns will vaporize if they leave.


and for the record, the Corporate income tax went up 45% percent.

so the 'heads of CAT' got stung twice......

That is a loaded statistic.

What is 45% more than 10%?

 

[spidey07]

That is a loaded statistic.

What is 45% more than 10%?

14.5%

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

That is a loaded statistic.

What is 45% more than 10%?

In the case of CAT I believe that number is around $40M per year.

 

[Acanthus]

In the case of CAT I believe that number is around $40M per year.

How much does CAT make in IL? What is their effective tax rate after incentives?

 

[Zargon]

That is a loaded statistic.

What is 45% more than 10%?

its not a 'loaded statistic', its a plain jane truthful number.

45% more taxes. there is no spin, thats what it went up

 

[Acanthus]

its not a 'loaded statistic', its a plain jane truthful number.

45% more taxes. there is no spin, thats what it went up

45% looks like a lot though.

However 45% more than 20 cents is not a large number.

You're using comparative stats to make things look worse than they actually are.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

How much does CAT make in IL? What is their effective tax rate after incentives?

Actually the $40M is the anticipated increase in State taxes only.

As far as your question is concerned...the answer is moot if they decide to leave.

 

[Acanthus]

In the case of CAT I believe that number is around $40M per year.

And CAT made $6,782,000,000 last year.

Holy shit $40m is a rapefest.

 

[ShawnD1]

its not a 'loaded statistic', its a plain jane truthful number.
45% more taxes. there is no spin, thats what it went up

Truth. If I pay $10 in tax then I need to pay $14, that really is a 40% increase. That's exactly how I would express any other increase. Gasoline is $10 then suddenly it's $14? My gasoline is now 40% more expensive.

 

[Zargon]

45% looks like a lot though.

However 45% more than 20 cents is not a large number.

You're using comparative stats to make things look worse than they actually are.

IL now has the 3rd highest copr taxes in the USA.

how do you like that compartive stat?

http://www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/26974.html

from 7.3 percent to 9.5 percent

2.5 of that is the PPT

 

[Acanthus]

IL now has the 3rd highest copr taxes in the USA.

how do you like that compartive stat?

http://www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/26974.html

from 7.3 percent to 9.5 percent

2.5 of that is the PPT

It is also one of best places to live. I can't wait to graduate and move to Chicago.

Would you call 9.5% taxes oppressive? Really?

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

It's like having a rapist that has a high income and pays a lot of taxes...

Will you let him stay because of the tax income?

If they want to move, tell them to piss off and that they can't take anything with them, another company will move in soon enough.

 

[Acanthus]

Truth. If I pay $10 in tax then I need to pay $14, that really is a 40% increase. That's exactly how I would express any other increase. Gasoline is $10 then suddenly it's $14? My gasoline is now 40% more expensive.

Math fail.

If your tax on gasoline is 15%, and the base price of gasoline is $2 per gallon. You are paying $0.30 per gallon in taxes. Therefore the price you are paying for gas is 15% tax.

If we increase the tax on gasoline by 40% that is 15% * 1.4 = 21%. This will take your taxes on gasoline up to $0.42 per gallon. Your gasoline is not 40% more expensive, go back to middle school.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

It is also one of best places to live. I can't wait to graduate and move to Chicago.

Would you call 9.5% taxes oppressive? Really?

Stay out of Wisconsin and you'll be fine.

 

[manimal]

If states didnt stab each other in back and kept things uniform for the most part and didnt give sweetheart deals that take decades to recoup things like this wouldnt happen.


There needs to be disincentives built into the system. Take jobs overseas you get a BIG hit....move to another state....get a big hit.....


anything in a an unfettered state is imperfect......see religion....see capitalism..see communism...see socialism...

Hard line ANYTHING sucks....

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Not really. The way it works is you run low corporate taxes so the head honchos in Tokyo or Mexico or whatever decide that your state is where they will put their US manufacturing plant. This creates jobs. The workers who now have jobs pay income tax.
Moving a factory around or saying you'll build in Idaho instead of Washington is as easy as some asshole signing a piece of paper. It's important to cater to these people because they are the ones creating jobs.

You'll notice that "shit hole" countries like Germany have ridiculously high personal income taxes. Now you know why. Build the plant, allow the plant to be profitable and do well, then the workers pay the bulk of the taxes. It sure beats the hell out of being unemployed for months or years at a time.

In Germany you don't need a car, there is a bus that will take you where you need to get arriving in 5 minutes if you are in any major city and if you have to travel between cities, you have a train at the station every fifteen minutes for shorter commutes and inter commoutes are about one hour apart, international commutes are running four times a day.

If you choose to drive, which would be more expensive, then you are just daft, which is very American.

You can get your commute from Berlin to Helsinki fast than you can drive and at half the price of driving with your tank filled with US Petrol prices of petrol.

But never mind, it's a shithole.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Math fail.

If your tax on gasoline is 15%, and the base price of gasoline is $2 per gallon. You are paying $0.30 per gallon in taxes. Therefore the price you are paying for gas is 15% tax.

If we increase the tax on gasoline by 40% that is 15% * 1.4 = 21%. This will take your taxes on gasoline up to $0.42 per gallon. Your gasoline is not 40% more expensive, go back to middle school.

Heh, the percantage of the whole would still be 15% of the full price, but the price increase would be 40%.

So go back to middle school Acanthus.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

And CAT made $6,782,000,000 last year.

Holy shit $40m is a rapefest.

And what portion of their earnings were taxable in IL? Worldwide EBITDA was $6.365B (http://www.stock-analysis-on.net/NYSE/Company/Caterpillar-Inc/Valuation/EV-to-EBITDA) and worldwide operating profit in 2010 was $3.9B (not sure where you got your number)...but here's where I got mine (page 14) http://www.caterpillar.com/cda/files/2607135/7/Cat+Inc.+4Q2010+Final.pdf

Profit was up sharply from 2009 (which was their worst year since the Great Depression) and what did they do with all that extra money? Hired people....imagine that! These are people who pay taxes and stimulate the economy. 23,000 of those people reside in Illinois.

"Caterpillar worldwide full-time employment was 104,490 at the end of 2010 compared with 93,813 at year-end 2009, an increase of 10,677 full-time employees. In addition, we increased the flexible workforce by 11,046 for a total increase in the global workforce of 21,723."​

 

[piasabird]

Maybe I will leave Illinois when I retire. . . Probably will not live that long anyway.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

If states didnt stab each other in back and kept things uniform for the most part and didnt give sweetheart deals that take decades to recoup things like this wouldnt happen.


There needs to be disincentives built into the system. Take jobs overseas you get a BIG hit....move to another state....get a big hit.....


anything in a an unfettered state is imperfect......see religion....see capitalism..see communism...see socialism...

Hard line ANYTHING sucks....

If that ever happened it would ruin the states that while they have oil, they have no future.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

It's like having a rapist that has a high income and pays a lot of taxes...

Will you let him stay because of the tax income?

If they want to move, tell them to piss off and that they can't take anything with them, another company will move in soon enough.

Tell that to the people who live in Alton, IL.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

And what portion of their earnings were taxable in IL? Worldwide EBITDA was $6.365B (http://www.stock-analysis-on.net/NYSE/Company/Caterpillar-Inc/Valuation/EV-to-EBITDA) and worldwide operating profit in 2010 was $3.9B (not sure where you got your number)...but here's where I got mine (page 14) http://www.caterpillar.com/cda/files/2607135/7/Cat+Inc.+4Q2010+Final.pdf

Profit was up sharply from 2009 (which was their worst year since the Great Depression) and what did they do with all that extra money? Hired people....imagine that! These are people who pay taxes and stimulate the economy. 23,000 of those people reside in Illinois.

"Caterpillar worldwide full-time employment was 104,490 at the end of 2010 compared with 93,813 at year-end 2009, an increase of 10,677 full-time employees. In addition, we increased the flexible workforce by 11,046 for a total increase in the global workforce of 21,723."​

Isn't CAT supposed to be about superior products, don't they have entire lines that were made on that rep?

Cheap workforce, inferior products compared to Hitatchi, what is the incentive?