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Caterpillar: Bulldozing the American Dream

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Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
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494
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So the highest paid union workers at Catepillar in Illinois only make $26/hour. I find that's hard to believe, my basic mechanics (non-union) average making $22/hour here in Houston.
That is the avg. I am sure the highest paid workers make more.
 

ArizonaSteve

Senior member
Dec 20, 2003
720
50
91
Unfortunately CEO pay is not governed by the same rules that govern how much the rest of us are paid. Most of these guys fill the boards with their buddies, and most of these same guys are on the boards of other companies too. It's a classic case of "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours".

One thing that could be done would be to ban executives from being on more than one board. Or follow the German model where 50% of the board has to be regular employees.
 

Pr0d1gy

Diamond Member
Jan 30, 2005
7,775
0
76
Why is that a problem?

You still never responded to clarify your blanket statement. But the guy above you said that is a low wage for skilled workers in this field.


Their pay is proposed to be frozen, not cut.
Frozen is cut. How about we cut the CEO's pay in half and give 665 of the workers a $10,000 raise to reward them for our record profits? Shocking concept I know, but it would jumpstart their local economy.


You dont think skilled workers make up that less than 26\hour wage for avg Americans?

Once again, it is hard to debate incoherent sentences.


So let me get this straight. After you slam the majority of Americans as being unskilled making less than these workers. I am the one looking down on people? Laughable.

I didn't slam anyone. I just stated the fact that these people doing THIS JOB are worth more than a McDonald's cashier. Stating a production job is more productive than someone sitting on their ass all day is not me looking on anyone, it's just a fact. Their job is to produce heavy machinery. You cannot be much more productive than that, and all they ask is a fair wage to live on.


You still havent explained to me why avg Americans are able to pay mortgages, have kids, buy groceries on less than 26\hour is a problem

Getting by and living the American Dream are two vastly different things. On $26 an hour a single income family would barely be able to afford a new car, regular healthcare, and many of the other things our productive citizens used to have decades ago. DECADES. I can't imagine you've ever done it with such a naive & childish remark.
Response in quote.
 

momeNt

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2011
9,297
350
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So the highest paid union workers at Catepillar in Illinois only make $26/hour. I find that's hard to believe, my basic mechanics (non-union) average making $22/hour here in Houston.
They are working in Peoria, Illinois, which is pretty good pay as far as that area goes.

Now if actually mean Houston, or at least not 3 hours away from a big city like Peoria is to Chicago, then Cat workers are very well paid given their cost of living.
 

Pr0d1gy

Diamond Member
Jan 30, 2005
7,775
0
76
They are working in Peoria, Illinois, which is pretty good pay as far as that area goes.

Now if actually mean Houston, or at least not 3 hours away from a big city like Peoria is to Chicago, then Cat workers are very well paid given their cost of living.
He was just pointing out that $26 an hour for an industrial mechanic/builder is not a lot to pay for that type of skilled worker.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,061
494
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You still never responded to clarify your blanket statement. But the guy above you said that is a low wage for skilled workers in this field.
My statement was perfectly clear. The majority of Americans get by on less.

Frozen is cut. How about we cut the CEO's pay in half and give 665 of the workers a $10,000 raise to reward them for our record profits? Shocking concept I know, but it would jumpstart their local economy.
Frozen is not cut. Cut would be if CAT offered them 24\hour. Who is we? Since when do "we" get to determine what a corporation pay's their employees? You have an inflated view of your role in the world. Your theory having the force of govt steal money from one and give to another will jumpstart anything is ridiculous. It has never worked before, it wont work now.

I didn't slam anyone. I just stated the fact that these people doing THIS JOB are worth more than a McDonald's cashier. Stating a production job is more productive than someone sitting on their ass all day is not me looking on anyone, it's just a fact. Their job is to produce heavy machinery. You cannot be much more productive than that, and all they ask is a fair wage to live on.
You absolutely did slam people. You slammed the majority of Americans as being unskilled. A production job being more productive than somebody in an office is your opinion, not fact. People can absolutely be more productive than a production worker. Again your opinion, not fact. You have a misguided view the harder the labor the more productive somebody is within society.

I think 26\hour + benefits before overtime is a fair wage. It is more than an avg American, more than the avg wager earner in the area. What about it isnt fair to you?

etting by and living the American Dream are two vastly different things. On $26 an hour a single income family would barely be able to afford a new car, regular healthcare, and many of the other things our productive citizens used to have decades ago. DECADES. I can't imagine you've ever done it with such a naive & childish remark.
What is the American Dream to you? It sounds like some utopian society where everybody makes a million dollars and there is no inflation to show it.
 

Pr0d1gy

Diamond Member
Jan 30, 2005
7,775
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My statement was perfectly clear. The majority of Americans get by on less.
The majority of Americans are suffering. Wake up.


Frozen is not cut. Cut would be if CAT offered them 24\hour. Who is we? Since when do "we" get to determine what a corporation pay's their employees? You have an inflated view of your role in the world. Your theory having the force of govt steal money from one and give to another will jumpstart anything is ridiculous. It has never worked before, it wont work now.

Frozen is cut, or does inflation only work when you need it to?

You absolutely did slam people. You slammed the majority of Americans as being unskilled. A production job being more productive than somebody in an office is your opinion, not fact. People can absolutely be more productive than a production worker. Again your opinion, not fact. You have a misguided view the harder the labor the more productive somebody is within society.
I did not say the majority of Americans are unskilled, just that they are less productive than someone working at a production plant producing heavy machinery. You have a warped egotism fueled by your belief that sitting at a desk all day is somehow exponentially more productive than a person who actually works. I went to college, worked at a desk, and also worked in production. Most of those guy get more done in a week than you do in a month.

I think 26\hour + benefits before overtime is a fair wage. It is more than an avg American, more than the avg wager earner in the area. What about it isnt fair to you?

The average American is not on trial here and if I state the obvious case against the average American as compared to a skilled heavy machinery producer you will just say I am insulting everyone again...Lame. I will say it anyways, because fuck your ego and your little twisting in the wind game. The average American worker isn't worth as much as these people, period. They don't produce at the same level, don't have the same skills, and certainly do not have the same knowledge base (aka education, your golden goose, which is required to do these types of jobs as the top level $26 an hour guys are the ones actually BUILDING this stuff, hellooooo....once again, you certainly could not do this job even with your degree and overblown ego, yet you think these people are worth less than a UPS deliveryman).

What is the American Dream to you? It sounds like some utopian society where everybody makes a million dollars and there is no inflation to show it.
Oh so now you want inflation, but not when income and operating costs are involved. Tell me, were you an accountant at Enron? Just wondering. I also love how $54,000 a year turned into a million once it ran through your ego.
Get a clue or get a life, your choice. You already lost this debate.
 

momeNt

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2011
9,297
350
126
Get a clue or get a life, your choice. You already lost this debate.
No he didn't. You aren't understanding the microeconomics and the relationship labor has with business. You think company makes profit = company can afford to pay more. It doesn't matter what the company can afford to pay its employees, what matters is the leverage those employees have to justify their wages.

Apple makes a profit every year, why don't they sell their stuff for less? Answer: BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE TO!
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,061
494
126
Get a clue or get a life, your choice. You already lost this debate.
The surest sign the debate is getting good. When one side resorts to personal attacks and declaring victory in an internet debate lol.

The majority of Americans are suffering. Wake up.
Sure a swath of our country is hurting. But they are able to get by on less than 26\hour. And I propose the wage they earn doesnt have all that much to do with them hurting. They have never earned 26\hour and we had times of prosperity.

Frozen is cut, or does inflation only work when you need it to?
Are you seeing widespread inflation in this depressed economy? Liberals are always telling us all the money they print isnt a worry because inflation is non-existent.


did not say the majority of Americans are unskilled, just that they are less productive than someone working at a production plant producing heavy machinery. You have a warped egotism fueled by your belief that sitting at a desk all day is somehow exponentially more productive than a person who actually works. I went to college, worked at a desk, and also worked in production. Most of those guy get more done in a week than you do in a month.
You have no clue fueled by ignorance that producing heavy machinery makes one more productive as a fact. And further you have no idea what I do in a given month to make such an assinine statement like that.


Oh so now you want inflation, but not when income and operating costs are involved. Tell me, were you an accountant at Enron? Just wondering. I also love how $54,000 a year turned into a million once it ran through your ego.
That doesnt answer my question. Like most of your reponses they dont answer anything and deflect instead.
 

Pr0d1gy

Diamond Member
Jan 30, 2005
7,775
0
76
No he didn't. You aren't understanding the microeconomics and the relationship labor has with business. You think company makes profit = company can afford to pay more. It doesn't matter what the company can afford to pay its employees, what matters is the leverage those employees have to justify their wages.

Apple makes a profit every year, why don't they sell their stuff for less? Answer: BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE TO!
The more you talk the more I think Capitalism is wasted on human beings.

As for GenX..

This is getting stupid. I made my points, they are extremely valid. I insulted you because you obviously believe that the people who build the heavy machinery that builds the modern world aren't worth 1/1000th of what their CEO is worth, which is a fucking joke.
 

theevilsharpie

Platinum Member
Nov 2, 2009
2,322
14
81
What you said. The average wage is less than $26 an hour. So their pay is supposed to be cut while their CEO is raking in stacks of cash? Did you mean the average American workers pay? If so, these guys are skilled workers, why would you expect them to accept average pay for a dangerous job in a factory full of heavy moving metal and machines that could maim or kill them? Not to mention, can you build a CAT? That is a skill.
The private sector is always looking for skilled workers. If the factory workers at CAT are as skilled as you suggest, and if CAT is paying them less than they're worth, why don't they just go work somewhere else?
 

Pr0d1gy

Diamond Member
Jan 30, 2005
7,775
0
76
The private sector is always looking for skilled workers. If the factory workers at CAT are as skilled as you suggest, and if CAT is paying them less than they're worth, why don't they just go work somewhere else?
Why doesn't CAT just pay them what they're worth?
 

momeNt

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2011
9,297
350
126
Why doesn't CAT just pay them what they're worth?
You seriously don't understand anything to do with wages or supply and demand of labor. You want communist-style structuring of wages, or some sort of enlightened society that has progressed past the economics of supply and demand and instead pays people based on what they need, not on an open market bargaining system.
 

momeNt

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2011
9,297
350
126
The more you talk the more I think Capitalism is wasted on human beings.

As for GenX..

This is getting stupid. I made my points, they are extremely valid. I insulted you because you obviously believe that the people who build the heavy machinery that builds the modern world aren't worth 1/1000th of what their CEO is worth, which is a fucking joke.
Apply your line of thinking the next time you go shopping for groceries. Start acting as you think these companies should be acting. Pay 20% over market value for all the stuff in your cart, because you know what, after you paid all your bills, you still had money left over so you can afford to pay more.
 

Pr0d1gy

Diamond Member
Jan 30, 2005
7,775
0
76
Apply your line of thinking the next time you go shopping for groceries. Start acting as you think these companies should be acting. Pay 20% over market value for all the stuff in your cart, because you know what, after you paid all your bills, you still had money left over so you can afford to pay more.
I already pay over 20% of market value, we all do, just so some asswipe can buy another mansion, Lamborghini, etc.
 

sm625

Diamond Member
May 6, 2011
8,172
135
106
You idiots seem to think caterpillar should have just done the same as detroit, just sit on their butts overpaying their workers, until they reach the point where they are no longer competitive and they're in a big mess and need a bailout.
Hell yeah, you got it figured out. Git dat god damn govt cheese train gravy train mofo rollin up in here already. Obama still gon pay my mortgage, I'm tellin all yall, he ain never don dat yet either.
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,995
772
126
You seriously don't understand anything to do with wages or supply and demand of labor. You want communist-style structuring of wages, or some sort of enlightened society that has progressed past the economics of supply and demand and instead pays people based on what they need, not on an open market bargaining system.
Funny, CEO pay doesn't follow an 'open market bargaining system' and i hardly ever hear righties complaining about it.
 

techs

Lifer
Sep 26, 2000
28,563
3
0
Hey, market value for an assembly line worker is about buck and a half an hour in China.
I guess thats where Republicans want it to be here.
 

Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
17,303
158
106
londojowo.hypermart.net
They are working in Peoria, Illinois, which is pretty good pay as far as that area goes.

Now if actually mean Houston, or at least not 3 hours away from a big city like Peoria is to Chicago, then Cat workers are very well paid given their cost of living.
So we're talking about the Peoria Plant. I worked there 15 years ago installing 2 steam turbine generator sets and the Caterpillar millwrights I worked with then made $24/hour back then.
 

Pr0d1gy

Diamond Member
Jan 30, 2005
7,775
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So we're talking about the Peoria Plant. I worked there 15 years ago installing 2 steam turbine generator sets and the Caterpillar millwrights I worked with then made $24/hour back then.
Wow, that may be the most damning statement I have read in a thread today. Wow.....just Wow.
 

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