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Caterpillar: Bulldozing the American Dream

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her209

No Lifer
Oct 11, 2000
56,352
9
0
You idiots seem to think caterpillar should have just done the same as detroit, just sit on their butts overpaying their workers, until they reach the point where they are no longer competitive and they're in a big mess and need a bailout.

It's a competitive market, the company is doing what it should to keep their expenses in check, just like the workers and their union try to increase their wages. Just because the company is making a profit doesn't mean it shouldn't do everything it can to maintain the competitive edge they have.

Caterpillar should just move their HQ out of illinois to a state with better leadership and do even better.
No the morons think they can just stick it to the worker bees and when the whole shit goes belly up, then they run crying to the federal government for a bailout.
 

Pr0d1gy

Diamond Member
Jan 30, 2005
7,775
0
76
If they wanted to make more than $13/hour they should acquire skills that justify paying them more than $13/hour.
Can you build a CAT? I didn't think so. Are you willing to risk mangling your hands on a daily basis? Yeah, didn't think so.


No the morons think they can just stick it to the worker bees and when the whole shit goes belly up, then they run crying to the federal government for a bailout.
As they already have....and continue to do.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,063
495
126
No the morons think they can just stick it to the worker bees and when the whole shit goes belly up, then they run crying to the federal government for a bailout.
If you mean sticking it to worker bees is making 26\hour for running a machine on a factory line.
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
13,650
199
101
So it's ok to have overpaid senior management when profits are huge and forecasted to be huge, but it's not ok to even maintain current levels of pay for the people who contributed most to building the profitable products when profits are huge and forecasted to be hudge? (which would not have impacted their huge profits any bit).
It has absolutely nothing to do with what you think is "ok" or not. How do you have any idea whether their senior management is "overpaid" or not? Just more left wing knee jerk reactions. The company management takes whatever steps it thinks will put it in the best competitive position. I have no idea what their compensation structure looks like, and frankly, it's irrelevant.

That way they can share in the success that the workers are getting when the company makes huge profits.
Why do people feel like they are somehow entitled to "share" in someone elses' profits? The deal is, you provide your work, they give you a paycheck. If you also want a share of profits or whatever other benefits, then that has to be part of your decision on whether to work there or not.

Lead by example. If the execs and workers are overpaid then cut both, but don't do one and then defend not doing it for the other.
How would you know what the execs get paid and whether or not they are overpaid? Isn't that up to the company to decide?
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
13,650
199
101
No the morons think they can just stick it to the worker bees
As opposed to the worker bees sticking it to the company until it's no longer competitive and then going to the federal government for a bailout? (hello GM!).
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,995
774
126
As opposed to the worker bees sticking it to the company until it's no longer competitive and then going to the federal government for a bailout? (hello GM!).
Yes, it's the worker's fault and not management's fault for making more attractive cars for consumers (especially focusing more on gas guzzling suv's when oil prices were rising)
 

techs

Lifer
Sep 26, 2000
28,561
3
0
If you mean sticking it to worker bees is making 26\hour for running a machine on a factory line.
Last I looked the average per capita income was about 44 thousand. A worker making 26 an hour makes about 54 thousand. And that's for a long time worker making the top wage.
Cat wants to pay 13 dollars for unskilled and 19 dollars for skilled labor. Which is 27 thousand to 39 thousand.

Of course, when a hugely profitable manufacturer like Cat lowers wages, it lowers wages all around.

Gee, gotta wonder how that is going to affect government revenue. I guess we will have to raise taxes.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,063
495
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Last I looked the average per capita income was about 44 thousand. A worker making 26 an hour makes about 54 thousand. And that's for a long time worker making the top wage.
Cat wants to pay 13 dollars for unskilled and 19 dollars for skilled labor. Which is 27 thousand to 39 thousand.

Of course, when a hugely profitable manufacturer like Cat lowers wages, it lowers wages all around.

Gee, gotta wonder how that is going to affect government revenue. I guess we will have to raise taxes.
Did you read your own article? They said they only wanted to freeze the pay of the top line workers. Who make an avg of 26\hour before overtime. Leaving the 12-19 dollar an hour jobs alone with a possible pay raise due to market conditions.

That 13 dollar an hour figure is from a union boss. And it is his opinion. The rest of the article doesnt back it up. Unless the article is wrong of course.
 
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techs

Lifer
Sep 26, 2000
28,561
3
0
We are consumer based economy, slowly running out of consumers
Very well put.

In fact, I would go so far as to say we are approaching the same problem we had in the 1930's during the Great Depression. We have the factories, we have the raw materials. What we don't have is a middle class with enough money to support actually making the goods because there is not enough demand due to so much of the money locked up in the hands of the wealthiest.
 

Pr0d1gy

Diamond Member
Jan 30, 2005
7,775
0
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Very well put.

In fact, I would go so far as to say we are approaching the same problem we had in the 1930's during the Great Depression. We have the factories, we have the raw materials. What we don't have is a middle class with enough money to support actually making the goods because there is not enough demand due to so much of the money locked up in the hands of the wealthiest.
And they don't give a shit because when it all falls apart they will fly to another country and try to sell them on this bullshit.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,063
495
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Link to exactly the kind of work they are doing. They may not just be 'pushing a button' as you so quaintly put it.
I never said they did. But they are making 26\hour on avg before over time. Not exactly starving or the poor workers plight the OP is making it out to be.
 

sunzt

Diamond Member
Nov 27, 2003
3,076
3
81
It has absolutely nothing to do with what you think is "ok" or not. How do you have any idea whether their senior management is "overpaid" or not? Just more left wing knee jerk reactions. The company management takes whatever steps it thinks will put it in the best competitive position. I have no idea what their compensation structure looks like, and frankly, it's irrelevant.
Maybe you should you know... find some facts... data as some call it instead of making knee jerk reactions to other people's posts. I have.

http://www.aflcio.org/Corporate-Watch/CEO-Pay-and-the-99/Trends-in-CEO-Pay

Avg CEO total compensation in 2011 is $12.9M

http://www.usatoday.com/money/workplace/story/2012-03-28/ceo-pay-executive-compensation/53839786/1

Median CEO Pay is $9.6M

http://insiders.morningstar.com/trading/executive-compensation.action?t=CAT&region=USA&culture=en_US

CAT CEO total compensation for 2011 is $16.9M

According to the "market" he is 31% overpaid.... so if you're gonna cut wages of those on the bottom who are above market, then why shouldn't it apply to the CEO?

How would you know what the execs get paid and whether or not they are overpaid? Isn't that up to the company to decide?
How do you know those line employees are overpaid? Oh I know!! They are using MARKET DATA!!! Guess what? According to Market data CEO of CAT is overpaid!

It is up to the company to decide wages and according to them, if market data suggests those workers on the bottom are overpaid then the company must make cuts to their salary. However, if market data suggests CEO is overpaid then that's all hunky dory.


Why do people feel like they are somehow entitled to "share" in someone elses' profits? The deal is, you provide your work, they give you a paycheck. If you also want a share of profits or whatever other benefits, then that has to be part of your decision on whether to work there or not.
Wait, i thought GOP trickle down mantra says profits and success from the top will make their way to the bottom right? Isn't that what they've been telling us all along? If the top earners do well then won't everyone else get a trickle of their success? Or are you admitting that the GOP's totally flawed system is bull since the faucet of trickling doesn't actually have to flow in real life?

The workers are not entitled to a share of anyone else's pay, but the company should compensate ALL of its employees by applying the same principles that are based on the market AND performance of the company, and not only apply it selectively to executives and non-executives.

If the profits of the company are used to pay those employees and the upper management then who's to say the company's profits belong only to the upper management? In other words, why should the executives take salary away only from the lower tier works to compensate for their overpaid costs? If they want to seriously control costs then they should do it to the executive level as well.
 
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Pr0d1gy

Diamond Member
Jan 30, 2005
7,775
0
76
I never said they did. But they are making 26\hour on avg before over time. Not exactly starving or the poor workers plight the OP is making it out to be.

Yes you did say they did.

Yeah, he is pointing out that they forced those people out so they could pay someone else half as much. You must not understand what it is like to raise a family, pay a mortgage, insurance, buy food for a family, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc on $26 an hour.
 

Pr0d1gy

Diamond Member
Jan 30, 2005
7,775
0
76
According to the "market" he is 31% overpaid.... so if you're gonna cut wages of those on the bottom who are above market, then why shouldn't it apply to the CEO?
And cut his pay to the extent he wants to cut everyone else's. Cut it in half.

By freeing up that 6.65 million dollars you could pay 665 employees $10,000 more a year. Wow, economy fixed.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,063
495
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Yes you did say they did.

Yeah, he is pointing out that they forced those people out so they could pay someone else half as much. You must not understand what it is like to raise a family, pay a mortgage, insurance, buy food for a family, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc on $26 an hour.

They havent forced them out. They want to freeze their pay raise for 6 years.
The rest of your blathering is amusing as the majority of America does it on less. The avg wage is less than 26\hour.
 

momeNt

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2011
9,297
350
126
If these guys aren't overpaid, go get a job elsewhere. If they are, well, too bad for them that Cat found out huh?
 
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Pr0d1gy

Diamond Member
Jan 30, 2005
7,775
0
76
They havent forced them out. They want to freeze their pay raise for 6 years.
The rest of your blathering is amusing as the majority of America does it on less. The avg wage is less than 26\hour.
Yeah, that's the problem.

momeNt you should read what you post before you post it because that is barely coherent.
 

momeNt

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2011
9,297
350
126
Yeah, that's the problem.

momeNt you should read what you post before you post it because that is barely coherent.
Yes I forgot "bad" I fixed it. I even did read it but must have inserted it in my head while reading.

If these guys aren't overpaid, go get a job elsewhere. If they are, well, too bad for them that Cat found out huh?
Nobody is forcing them to work for Cat, and nobody is forcing the industry to buy Cat equipment. Asking a company to share profit with workers to a greater extent than what they could bargain for on a free market is essentially the same as Cat asking workers to work for less than what they could get on the free market. Which of the two do you think is happening? I propose neither.
 

Pr0d1gy

Diamond Member
Jan 30, 2005
7,775
0
76
What is the problem?
What you said. The average wage is less than $26 an hour. So their pay is supposed to be cut while their CEO is raking in stacks of cash? Did you mean the average American workers pay? If so, these guys are skilled workers, why would you expect them to accept average pay for a dangerous job in a factory full of heavy moving metal and machines that could maim or kill them? Not to mention, can you build a CAT? That is a skill.

It may not be as acceptable to you as your skill, but nonetheless it is a highly productive skill that is worth for more than the average McDonald's employee. In fact, it is a more productive skill than 90% of the people on this forum. They build things that help us build this marvel of a country we live in.

To look down at your nose at the people responsible for building this nation is a joke.

Yes I forgot "bad" I fixed it. I even did read it but must have inserted it in my head while reading.



Nobody is forcing them to work for Cat, and nobody is forcing the industry to buy Cat equipment. Asking a company to share profit with workers to a greater extent than what they could bargain for on a free market is essentially the same as Cat asking workers to work for less than what they could get on the free market. Which of the two do you think is happening? I propose neither.
Yeah and nobody is forcing their CEO to get paid $13+million to sit in an office all day probably doing cocaine and jerking off the kiddie porn.
 

Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
17,303
158
106
londojowo.hypermart.net
So the highest paid union workers at Catepillar in Illinois only make $26/hour. I find that's hard to believe, my basic mechanics (non-union) average making $22/hour here in Houston.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,063
495
126
What you said. The average wage is less than $26 an hour.
Why is that a problem?

So their pay is supposed to be cut while their CEO is raking in stacks of cash?
Their pay is proposed to be frozen, not cut.

Did you mean the average American workers pay? If so, these guys are skilled workers, why would you expect them to accept average pay for a dangerous job in a factory full of heavy moving metal and machines that could maim or kill them? Not to mention, can you build a CAT? That is a skill.
You dont think skilled workers make up that less than 26\hour wage for avg Americans?


It may not be as acceptable to you as your skill, but nonetheless it is a highly productive skill that is worth for more than the average McDonald's employee. In fact, it is a more productive skill than 90% of the people on this forum. They build things that help us build this marvel of a country we live in.

To look down at your nose at the people responsible for building this nation is a joke.
So let me get this straight. After you slam the majority of Americans as being unskilled making less than these workers. I am the one looking down on people? Laughable.


You still havent explained to me why avg Americans are able to pay mortgages, have kids, buy groceries on less than 26\hour is a problem.
 

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