CAT5e for low voltage (12volts) and video signal (RCA)

[AnMig]

situation:

house is 300 feet away from mailbox/driveway entry. View is blocked by lots of trees so wireless cameras are bad (most of them need clear line of site to work at this distance.

we are having a a lamp post placed at the driveway entry so they will be digging a trench for the power cable to go in.

I was thinking of laying down outdoor cat5e cable alongside the power cable when they dig the trench. I was thinking of using CAT5e since it would be cheaper than running a coaxial or rca line that long. Plus it will have extra unused wires in case I want to add other things in the future (another camera, or pan and tilt control, power to heat enclosure)

question:
1. will the cat5e have problems running the low voltage power supply and RCA video feed together.
2. will the cat5e be able to hold the RCA video signal up to 300 feet?
3. good idea ? bad idea?
4. Anyone know of a good night vision wireless camera under 200$ that can go about 300 feet partially obstructed?


I figure 50$ for 300 feet of cat5e, 100$ for a wired external infrared camera.

I am aware that there are grounding issues,insurance issues running copper wire outside your house.


I figure that someone here has used cat5e cables for other purposes, I know people have made VGA cables using them for there projectors.


peace

 

[ScottMac]

Well, code considerations aside (I'm *sure* you'd follow code so you won't endanger your home or community) ....

The video is no big deal; find something resembling an AT&T / Avaya 380A balun/adapter for composite video over UTP. Unicom also makes one for a little less.

The trick is that you DO NOT want a 12VDC camera. DC is very lossy, especially when you try to push it through 26ga wire (it can be dangerous, generates heat ...blah blah blah ).

You would do better to find an 18VAC camera, which is designed to work at longer distances with less voltage loss on the cable.

Another choice, cooler/neater (and so, more expensive), is an Ethernet-based camera that takes power-over-ethernet for it's power input.

As additonal hardware, there are a variety of security DVRs (most require that you supply the hard drive, up to ~400G or so). I have a Swann (consumer grade, but it's been very good) with IP network access.

I can monitor the cameras (it supports four and has a built-in quad) from a PC , or go back and review "events" (you can record on trigger, or periodic, or continuous ... all with circular buffer), record form the DVR to the local PC, etc.

"Fer sher", don't do 12VDC cameras, the A/V adapters/baluns retail for ~US$35-40.00, probably can get them cheaper on the 'net (Anixter has them @ retail), and if you have the camera(s), you might as well record, it's good security.

Good Luck
Scott

 

[Gneisenau]

Originally posted by: AnMig
situation:

house is 300 feet away from mailbox/driveway entry. View is blocked by lots of trees so wireless cameras are bad (most of them need clear line of site to work at this distance.

we are having a a lamp post placed at the driveway entry so they will be digging a trench for the power cable to go in.

I was thinking of laying down outdoor cat5e cable alongside the power cable when they dig the trench. I was thinking of using CAT5e since it would be cheaper than running a coaxial or rca line that long. Plus it will have extra unused wires in case I want to add other things in the future (another camera, or pan and tilt control, power to heat enclosure)

question:
1. will the cat5e have problems running the low voltage power supply and RCA video feed together.
2. will the cat5e be able to hold the RCA video signal up to 300 feet?
3. good idea ? bad idea?
4. Anyone know of a good night vision wireless camera under 200$ that can go about 300 feet partially obstructed?


I figure 50$ for 300 feet of cat5e, 100$ for a wired external infrared camera.

I am aware that there are grounding issues,insurance issues running copper wire outside your house.


I figure that someone here has used cat5e cables for other purposes, I know people have made VGA cables using them for there projectors.


peace

Look at Scott's recomendation.

1.Power over CAT5 is a bad idea.
2.Video is not a good idea either. The properties of the CAT5 cable do not match video cable. Who knows what it would look like when it comes out the other end, but it probably won't be pretty.

 

[AnMig]

Thanks for the replies guys.

I guess it doesnt really sound like a good idea.

I may have to start looking for wireless solutions again. I may have to cut down a few trees to get good line of site but at least I dont have to deal with all these wiring (lightning issues).

Looking of a Wireless infred Camera that can transmit 300 feet (with trees)
withstand -40 F durring winter (Rural Minnesota).

This is all because I want to catch my mail box basher (had to change 4 mailboxes last year).

I might just bury coaxial cable since when they put up the lamp post they will be placing an AC outlet.


Thanks for replying

 

[ScottMac]

The composite <--> UTP adapter / baluns work very well actually. You can also get a varient that's RGB (but no audio), and there might even be one for S-Video now.

I use 'em all over the house. Once you get beyond ~100 meters, you start to notice a little degradation. I've seen them used out to ~3000 feet (that's three thousand) in mono and still be a pretty decent image.

I use one pair to distribute a second A/V feed to my computer from one of the satellite receivers to feed my ORB account. Quality is surprisingly good.

If you use the AC cameras and a good regulated camera supply, there's not much of a problem. Again, I use AC cameras and a commercial supply for my home, over UTP in most cases ... it's been seven years, no problems. Outdoors, buried, etc ... well, YMMV.

There are also some systems for coax (RG6 / RG59, 75 OHM) for remote cameras too. You can get power injectors / take-offs for coax as well.

If you're a good INternet shopper, you can probably find a nice 6 - 12 coax bundle (one ~1" sheath with 6-12 separate coax cables inside) for a reasonable price.

Fry's / Outpost carries some consumer-grade / light commercial grade security stuff, including 18VAC supplies.

Check it out.

The other suggestion would be to put in some sort of conduit / raceway to keep the power cabling (high voltage) away from the UTP/Coax/Whatever (low voltage). Even if you could drop in some 1/2 or 3/4 inch PVC to keep them apart would be a Good Thing.

Also, make sure any cabling you direct bury is "Gopher Rated" (no kidding, it's a real rating, usually the part number has a "G" suffix ...)

Good Luck

Scott

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: Gneisenau
Look at Scott's recomendation.

1.Power over CAT5 is a bad idea.
2.Video is not a good idea either. The properties of the CAT5 cable do not match video cable. Who knows what it would look like when it comes out the other end, but it probably won't be pretty.

Ummm...

Cat5 makes for good video. That's the whole idea behind structured cabling using cat5.

Also, power over ethernet is extremely handy and there are tons of professional security systems that use power over ethernet cameras. Not to mention phones and wireless access points use it.

 

[futuristicmonkey]

Originally posted by: ScottMac


The trick is that you DO NOT want a 12VDC camera. DC is very lossy, especially when you try to push it through 26ga wire (it can be dangerous, generates heat ...blah blah blah ).

You would do better to find an 18VAC camera, which is designed to work at longer distances with less voltage loss on the cable.

Good Luck
Scott

What experience backs up your claim that AC is superior to DC for long-distance transmission? I'm not trying to be a smart-ass, but that is plainly incorrect.

With DC all you have to account for is the resistance of the wire. Once you start transmitting power at these voltages and distances, the AC waveform does start to get 'screwed with' -- in layman's terms. The fact that DC "can be dangerous, generates heat ...blah blah blah" is also true of AC, but to a greater extent than for DC power:

For example, any capacitive or inductive reactance imposed on the cable (it is a data cable, after all, so these would likely be negligent) _will_ change the power factor of the camera, consequently causing it to draw more current than needed, imposing a greater voltage drop, generating more heat, etc.

The only reason the 18VAC camera would be better is due to the higher voltage. It'll require less current to do the job, therefore mitigating the voltage drop due to the cable's resistance.

 

[giverson]

It's worth checking out something like the Linksys WAPPOE12. It'll step the voltage up to 48 volts and back down to 12 at the end. When talking 300 feet, I'm afraid that the voltage drop for 12 volts is going to make it unusable. (I'll leave the math to someone else) Bumping it to 48 volts down the wire makes it a non-issue.

futuristicmonkey is right - DC isn't a problem here. But simply running 12 volts down the wire would be.

 

[Modelworks]

AC is superior to DC for long range transmission for a number of reasons.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_Currents


An ideal cable would be some C-band satellite wire.
But its not cheap , about 1.00 a foot.

I would just drop in some external grade Rg6 - cheap and will carry any video signal you need.

You are already going to have an AC outlet there, so why run a wire for power 300feet ? Just use the outlet.

 

[futuristicmonkey]

Originally posted by: Modelworks
AC is superior to DC for long range transmission for a number of reasons.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_Currents

Which is only due to the fact that you can efficiently transform AC up to many hundreds of thousands of volts for transmission. In fact, for _really_ long transmission lines and for connecting grids that are not synchronized, DC is the top choice -- at even higher voltages than AC TL's. Of course, those are very special cases.

Voltage isn't the issue here, however. CAT5/6 cable seems to have a practical limit of 30 volts. This is a peak value, however, so the maximum AC voltage the OP should send down this cable is roughly 21 volts.

You are already going to have an AC outlet there, so why run a wire for power 300feet ? Just use the outlet.

This option makes the most sense.

 

[ScottMac]

I don't make the equipment.

For power options in security cameras, typical is 12VDC, 18VAC, and POE, which is usually pushed at ~ +/- 48VDC (on an Ethernet-integrated camera).

It was my understanding that AC would be more effective than DC, especially through a 25/26ga conductor. Did I do any deep research, no. Will I, no. I don't really care.

Given the options of 12VDC, 18VAC, and POE (on a network camera), for 300ft through Cat{anything}, 18VAC is the usual recommendation.

I am not going to get into the Tesla / Edison argument ... it's a frickin' security camera.

Good Luck

Scott