Casual or Hardcore MMO?

[Koudelka]

In a recent thread about MMO's, i start reminiscing again about older MMO's where a few of us miss the days of EQ, UO, etc.

Myself.. I miss the days where MMO's were not made entirely for a casual audience. Where you could not solo to max level. Where you would sometimes spend an hour or more on a waiting list for a popular group camping a specific area for xp. Where there were no seperately instanced zones, but there was a hell of a lot more zones to raid in with a million mobs and minibosses to kill before you finally got to to that boss or dragon.

These days, to turn a profit (i dont blame them), companies have to cater to a larger audience when it comes to MMOs. The larger audience being a casual gamer.

Out of curiosity, how many people would prefer to play a hardcore MMO if one was made?

And i define hardcore by implementing death penalties, 'hell levels' and long long grinding sessions, and the inability to solo to max level. Basically alot of the things Everquest had. It was rare to see 2 players of the same class/level look alike. And you could tell how much one played by the equipment he had. There was always better or equivalent equipment, and something much harder to kill.

I consider casual to be a game like WoW, where you can login and immediately get something accomplished. There are almost no waits, and no server politics. You can immediately go out and solo to the next level quiet efficiently and quickly.

I know there's a lot of debate to be had between what is actually hardcore and what is casual, but i'm not trying to say exactly what one is or what isnt. I'm just curious how many of the gamers here that play MMO's would prefer to play a game again made for the hardcore gamer to succeed instead of looking like his casual counterpart.

Yes, yes.. its always just a game and life goes on. But i always preferred an MMO like EQ I enjoyed the death penalties and 100 hour Epic quests.

 

[brandonb]

The first run I had with EQ1 where I played regularly without breaks was about 3 years. Best MMORPG experience. Up until Luclin came out for EQ1.

Compare that to the 2 months I played Wow and quit due to boredom after 62 levels of Rogue work grinding mindless quests by myself.

I vote Hardcore.

 

[SMOGZINN]

Originally posted by: Koudelka
In a recent thread about MMO's, i start reminiscing again about older MMO's where a few of us miss the days of EQ, UO, etc.

Myself.. I miss the days where MMO's were not made entirely for a casual audience. Where you could not solo to max level. Where you would sometimes spend an hour or more on a waiting list for a popular group camping a specific area for xp. Where there were no seperately instanced zones, but there was a hell of a lot more zones to raid in with a million mobs and minibosses to kill before you finally got to to that boss or dragon.

These days, to turn a profit (i dont blame them), companies have to cater to a larger audience when it comes to MMOs. The larger audience being a casual gamer.

Out of curiosity, how many people would prefer to play a hardcore MMO if one was made?

And i define hardcore by implementing death penalties, 'hell levels' and long long grinding sessions, and the inability to solo to max level. Basically alot of the things Everquest had. It was rare to see 2 players of the same class/level look alike. And you could tell how much one played by the equipment he had. There was always better or equivalent equipment, and something much harder to kill.

I consider casual to be a game like WoW, where you can login and immediately get something accomplished. There are almost no waits, and no server politics. You can immediately go out and solo to the next level quiet efficiently and quickly.

I know there's a lot of debate to be had between what is actually hardcore and what is casual, but i'm not trying to say exactly what one is or what isnt. I'm just curious how many of the gamers here that play MMO's would prefer to play a game again made for the hardcore gamer to succeed instead of looking like his casual counterpart.

Yes, yes.. its always just a game and life goes on. But i always preferred an MMO like EQ I enjoyed the death penalties and 100 hour Epic quests.

I'm a hardcore casual player. I like serious death penalties and huge epic quests, meaningfull PVP, and emo politics, when I have time for it, but want to be able to get on for just an hour after work and smash some face too.

 

[Feldenak]

I fall somewhere in between, though I've never been a "true" hardcore gamer. I'd sooner log out than spend a long time waiting for a particular spawn or group.

 

[Koudelka]

@SMOGZINN

Haha. It would be nice to see a hardcore-casual MMO, but whenever its attempted it never seems to do so well. And utterly fails.

I think the funny thing about hardcore MMO's are that they create diehard fanbases more often than others. Add 20 expansions and people will still be playing 10 years later.

The emo politics were often interesting. I liked a game where players interacted more. Then if you made a total ass of yourself you would feel it across the server when players refused to group or raid with you. And then they'd run a train of mobs on you while you were afk.

Honestly, i dont even have the time for a hardcore MMO anymore.. but i think i would still prefer one and play one over anything else.

 

[Juddog]

I view myself as an ex-hardcore, now casual, raider.

In other words I like to raid about 3 days a week (less in the summer of course), PVP somewhat and typically have a few characters at max level at whichever MMO I'm playing.

I don't like the hardcore raiding mentality where you're docked -50 DKP by running into the whelps; to me, everybody makes mistakes and some people just take a little time learning. For example in Vanilla WoW our guild raided up to Ahn'Qiraj and started doing the first wing of Naxx before BC came out, whereas the more "hardcore" guilds had already completed Naxx, completed Ahn'Qiraj, etc.. The guild I was in was friendly, didn't blast you personally for not showing up every now and then when real life necessities arose, and chatted all the time about non-gaming stuff. Unfortunately the BC switch to 25 man raids caused internal drama and the guild broke up, then eventually I quit playing for a couple years and just recently came back.

Versus a friend of mine who I would consider a hardcore player, but doesn't raid. He plays at least 6 hrs a day on top of his regular job schedule, on weekends will play 14+ hours, but hates to raid so his equipment is actually worse than mine. He has 4 characters in WoW for example at max level (80).

So I'm not sure where that places me, but I've always considered it a third category, "ex-hardcore". Meaning I go through the formulas on how to get the best equipment, have the top items for my class memorized, parse my damage, engage in mild theorycrafting, but play maybe 25 hrs a week (3 x 3 hrs on raid nights, 16 hours split between the other 4 days including weekends). I used to play hardcore raiding back in the days of Everquest and it was killing my social life. I would have days where I played literally non-stop for some days, for 26 hrs in one extreme case of camping (yes - I stayed awake for 26 hrs, only taking a couple bathroom breaks, and this was to get some of the fabled gear in everquest when it first came out, e.g. fabled black flowing silk sash and fabled executioner's axe).

So now when I play I set limits ahead of time, e.g. to log off before a certain time, etc., make sure to not log in on some days to spend the day with my wife, etc..

 

[Juddog]

Originally posted by: Koudelka
@SMOGZINN

Haha. It would be nice to see a hardcore-casual MMO, but whenever its attempted it never seems to do so well. And utterly fails.

I think the funny thing about hardcore MMO's are that they create diehard fanbases more often than others. Add 20 expansions and people will still be playing 10 years later.

The emo politics were often interesting. I liked a game where players interacted more. Then if you made a total ass of yourself you would feel it across the server when players refused to group or raid with you. And then they'd run a train of mobs on you while you were afk.

Honestly, i dont even have the time for a hardcore MMO anymore.. but i think i would still prefer one and play one over anything else.

WoW is hardcore / casual though, in it's own way. Unlike everquest, you can truly level to 80 solo with any class, and end up getting decent loot if you do all the quests. Raids are much easier with WoW than they were in Everquest (e.g. no healing rotations on bosses, not really much need for crowd control, and no griefing other guilds or worrying about waking up at 3 AM to go kill a boss). Sunwell was a pretty dang hard raid, and so was Ahn'Qiraj and Naxx when they first came out.

 

[ViviTheMage]

hardcore if the game is good.

at the moment I can play wow for 12 hours strait, or 10-30 minutes to do my JC daily and toss out some enchants/JC cuts for people...

The game REALLY caters to both worlds...and for some reason I hate the game...it is getting rather bland, but it does keep my attention long enough. I also have a few friends I play with, so it makes it much more enjoyable.

I am waiting on the next 'big' mmo, no subs, but big in terms of difference of the grind. I love death penalties..or you drop loot when you die, etc.

I can devote hours and hours a week, or a few minutes...if the games any good.

 

[Martimus]

I have played WoW long enough that I know I didn't like it, but if a MMO came out that had good UI and was fun to me, I could see playing it. I was amazed at how bad the UI was compared to even NWN. I figured that something that was so popular would have an excellent user interface.

I don't consider "grinding" to be fun though. The other parts you mentioned (death penalty, rewards for team play) I could get into.

Actually there is one MMO that I am interested in trying, and that is EVE online. After reading through a bunch of the posts on the EVE thread here, it seems like just the kind of game I would like to try.

 

[ViviTheMage]

Originally posted by: Martimus
I have played WoW long enough that I know I didn't like it, but if a MMO came out that had good UI and was fun to me, I could see playing it. I was amazed at how bad the UI was compared to even NWN. I figured that something that was so popular would have an excellent user interface.

I don't consider "grinding" to be fun though. The other parts you mentioned (death penalty, rewards for team play) I could get into.

Actually there is one MMO that I am interested in trying, and that is EVE online. After reading through a bunch of the posts on the EVE thread here, it seems like just the kind of game I would like to try.

If you do not like 'grinding' don't play EVE, haha...I just can't keep my attention in that game, imo it just isn't fun.

 

[rivan]

I'm hardcore trapped in a casual player's schedule.

I'd play 5 times as much as I do now, if I didn't have other priorities.

 

[Koudelka]

Originally posted by: Juddog

Originally posted by: Koudelka
@SMOGZINN

Haha. It would be nice to see a hardcore-casual MMO, but whenever its attempted it never seems to do so well. And utterly fails.

I think the funny thing about hardcore MMO's are that they create diehard fanbases more often than others. Add 20 expansions and people will still be playing 10 years later.

The emo politics were often interesting. I liked a game where players interacted more. Then if you made a total ass of yourself you would feel it across the server when players refused to group or raid with you. And then they'd run a train of mobs on you while you were afk.

Honestly, i dont even have the time for a hardcore MMO anymore.. but i think i would still prefer one and play one over anything else.

WoW is hardcore / casual though, in it's own way. Unlike everquest, you can truly level to 80 solo with any class, and end up getting decent loot if you do all the quests. Raids are much easier with WoW than they were in Everquest (e.g. no healing rotations on bosses, not really much need for crowd control, and no griefing other guilds or worrying about waking up at 3 AM to go kill a boss). Sunwell was a pretty dang hard raid, and so was Ahn'Qiraj and Naxx when they first came out.

I understand what you're saying. I know there's a hardcore side to WoW. Buut.. it just kinda feels one-sided to me.

I just figure a game like EQ to be more fitting. In terms of top-end raid content.. EQ had about 100x more content than WoW. You were always outfitting yourself on one tier of raid mobs to reach the next level of raid mobs. If you didnt have ultra-high resists.. you would be immediately squashed by trash mobs or random AoE's from trash mobs on the way to the boss. Or the Boss mob himself would immediately kill you or the healers wouldnt be able to keep up on the damage you'd be taking.

Once you get some really nice equipment in WoW, even from PVP.. there's only a few places left to raid in the entire game that are even worth it.

I just feel there's a real lack of top-end content in WoW, and that leaves a lot of wannabe hardcore players scratching their heads, or grinding endless BG's for trinkets.

An example:
In WoW, its common to find players with half a dozen or more max level characters with some pretty badass equipment. In EQ, it was uncommon to find players with more than 1-2 characters at max level with good equipment.

Being that there was always better equipment to be had.. you always ended up playing your primary character constantly outfitting him with the next tier of equipment. Or whatever random piece of badass loot you got from a 75 player raid that you finally happened to win.



Also.. Although yes, some called it zerg and some criticised it for a lack of tactics.. i really, really enjoyed having 75-100 people on a boss raid. It was fun as hell having so many people in one area all kicking butt together. It was great seeing so many people work together CCing mobs, pulling mobs, delayed nukes from a dozen wizards, etc.

It made for a very fun night full of laughs and jokes and you made a lot of friends. Especially when they happened to be PUG-sponsored raids that you had to sign up for on the server message boards a week in advance. Anyone remember Plane of Hate/Fear raids?

 

[Juddog]

Originally posted by: Koudelka

Originally posted by: Juddog

Originally posted by: Koudelka
@SMOGZINN

Haha. It would be nice to see a hardcore-casual MMO, but whenever its attempted it never seems to do so well. And utterly fails.

I think the funny thing about hardcore MMO's are that they create diehard fanbases more often than others. Add 20 expansions and people will still be playing 10 years later.

The emo politics were often interesting. I liked a game where players interacted more. Then if you made a total ass of yourself you would feel it across the server when players refused to group or raid with you. And then they'd run a train of mobs on you while you were afk.

Honestly, i dont even have the time for a hardcore MMO anymore.. but i think i would still prefer one and play one over anything else.

WoW is hardcore / casual though, in it's own way. Unlike everquest, you can truly level to 80 solo with any class, and end up getting decent loot if you do all the quests. Raids are much easier with WoW than they were in Everquest (e.g. no healing rotations on bosses, not really much need for crowd control, and no griefing other guilds or worrying about waking up at 3 AM to go kill a boss). Sunwell was a pretty dang hard raid, and so was Ahn'Qiraj and Naxx when they first came out.

I understand what you're saying. I know there's a hardcore side to WoW. Buut.. it just kinda feels one-sided to me.

I just figure a game like EQ to be more fitting. In terms of top-end raid content.. EQ had about 100x more content than WoW. You were always outfitting yourself on one tier of raid mobs to reach the next level of raid mobs. If you didnt have ultra-high resists.. you would be immediately squashed by trash mobs or random AoE's from trash mobs on the way to the boss. Or the Boss mob himself would immediately kill you or the healers wouldnt be able to keep up on the damage you'd be taking.

Once you get some really nice equipment in WoW, even from PVP.. there's only a few places left to raid in the entire game that are even worth it.

I just feel there's a real lack of top-end content in WoW, and that leaves a lot of wannabe hardcore players scratching their heads, or grinding endless BG's for trinkets.

An example:
In WoW, its common to find players with half a dozen or more max level characters with some pretty badass equipment. In EQ, it was uncommon to find players with more than 1-2 characters at max level with good equipment.

Being that there was always better equipment to be had.. you always ended up playing your primary character constantly outfitting him with the next tier of equipment. Or whatever random piece of badass loot you got from a 75 player raid that you finally happened to win.



Also.. Although yes, some called it zerg and some criticised it for a lack of tactics.. i really, really enjoyed having 75-100 people on a boss raid. It was fun as hell having so many people in one area all kicking butt together. It was great seeing so many people work together CCing mobs, pulling mobs, delayed nukes from a dozen wizards, etc.

It made for a very fun night full of laughs and jokes and you made a lot of friends. Especially when they happened to be PUG-sponsored raids that you had to sign up for on the server message boards a week in advance. Anyone remember Plane of Hate/Fear raids?

With EQ the thing that killed off alts was the AA point grinding. I spent more time grinding AA's in EQ than I have spent grinding anything in WoW all put together. If you didn't have the AA points, you couldn't compete. If you didn't have the uber gear, you couldn't compete.

WoW has it's gear resets every expansion, which is why so many hardcore players think there is nothing to do. It was like that in the beginning after BC came out as well; then they started adding raids each .1 patch, until Sunwell which was considered one of the more hardcore dungeons. Only maybe .5 % of the WoW population ever got to complete sunwell though, the vast majority of players never even set foot in it.

If WoW didn't have gear resets each expansion there would be a lot more reason to visit those old raid zones, but then they would be limiting their subscriptions as well which is something they'd rather not have.

I remember the epic amount of whining coming from the WoW raiding crowd when BC first came out, and people found that a level 70 green was better than some of the best level 60 epics out of Naxx.

 

[pontifex]

Originally posted by: Feldenak
I fall somewhere in between, though I've never been a "true" hardcore gamer. I'd sooner log out than spend a long time waiting for a particular spawn or group.

pretty much the same here.


when i played wow, i couldn't stand waiting to get raids together, especially the 40 man shit. waiting 2 hours to play sucked. then playing through the raid for 4 hours and getting NOTHING was even worse.


also, fuck grinding for something.

 

[Koudelka]

@Juddog

Yeah. Around the time AA's were introduced, i felt EQ was at its peak. After that there were just too many expansions and other games being introduced. Too many dead zones in EQ with no players because there were just.. too many zones. EQ had hit that point that all MMO's are destined to hit after a while.

I think the problem with WoW is that its so easy to acquire good green gear, and its fairly quick to level.

So.. In one hand - you can go waste time now exploring a dungeon nobody visits any longer and have some fun and get some great gear for your level.
In the other hand - you have your buddy who decided to keep leveling, and is now several levels ahead of you and also has better green gear he got from killing mobs while xp'ing than the blue gear you got from your dungeon.

In EQ, levels took forever to grind, starting from almost 20. And the better gear you had, the more people were going to invite you into their group over someone else. Also you'd gain a better rep, kill faster, be invited to groups more often and thus = more xp. So, it was completely reasonable to visit old dungeons and see a lot of people in them trying to get some good gear for their level.

Personally, i quit EQ during Planes of Power.. too much dead and new content for me. When Scars of Velious was out.. i think EQ was in the best shape ever. Soooo much fun content to kill with good rewards everywhere and always populated by players.


EDIT: Oh, btw. Just a small reason i didnt consider WoW entirely hardcore, in defense of players scratching their heads with nothing to do.

Look at how many max level characters you'd find in WoW vs EQ. It was uncommon to find a player with more than 1 or 2 max level characters in EQ with solid equipment during the first couple expansions (thats all i can vouche for because i only played for about 5 years). In the same amount of time, its entirely common to have players with half a dozen or more max level characters with solid or even max pvp equipment.

 

[TidusZ]

When I played WoW pre-BC, I was pretty fvcking hardcore. Was in a guild called late night crew, we raided til 2am or later, then joined up with Bloodsworn to create Overrated which went on to become the #1 North American horde guild, first KT kill and best naxx progression. I quit playing and ebayed my char for $750 usd a few months before everyone in the guild got banned for skipping c'thun trash. Worked out well for me.

The chars (pics were for ebay )
(29 twink) http://i17.photobucket.com/alb...1492/rogueportrait.gif
(60 alt) http://i17.photobucket.com/alb...492/priestportrait.gif
(main mage) http://i17.photobucket.com/alb.../equipmentportrait.gif

The mage's gear was top notch at the time, hence the big ticket price. C'thun had been downed for the first time a week or two before, and I had the ring.

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg.../news.html?sid=6160983

A shaman in my guild named Arm was offered $8000 USD for his account, and declined. I imagine he probably got banned, too. He was played by 3 people, had all rep exalted, all the extras, best gear, and lots of extra gear for whatever situation and messing around. My playtime was like, ~150 days altogether, he had nearly three times that much, I don't even recall. He was beyond hardcore.

I've also had a top 10 ladder char in hardcore diablo 2, and beat a group of top 100 players in supcom, finishing in a 1v1 battle against a top 10 player and winning. I'm pretty hardcore with all my games really. It's too bad there's nothing good out.

 

[deveraux]

Personally, I don't feel that goin to either ends achieves anything fruitful. Casuals want to have the same opportunities as Hardcore gamers but Hardcore gamers feel casuals are well...too casual. I'd like it if games weren't "dumbed down" so much, I prefer relatively complex games, but hey, that does not always appeal to the masses.

And really, it is just a game. Its shame that they don't have both sides covered. Having "one game to rule them all" won't work. Both these crowds just need a separate space/server. But good luck getting that to happen.

 

[Dumac]

Ah, I miss the days of EQ.

Nothing compares nowadays. Everything is just handed to you on a silver platter.

 

[Feldenak]

Originally posted by: pontifex

Originally posted by: Feldenak
I fall somewhere in between, though I've never been a "true" hardcore gamer. I'd sooner log out than spend a long time waiting for a particular spawn or group.

pretty much the same here.


when i played wow, i couldn't stand waiting to get raids together, especially the 40 man shit. waiting 2 hours to play sucked. then playing through the raid for 4 hours and getting NOTHING was even worse.


also, fuck grinding for something.

Heh, I got over my hardcore "phase" in my days of playing text-based MUDs. I definately lean towards the casual side of MMOs now. I played SW:G briefly (quit before anyone was a jedi), played DAoC for a really long time as a borderline casual/HC gamer, and now play LotRO as a casual player. I'm still more HC than the sterotypical casual gamer but I'm not dedicated to being among the first to max level, having the best equipment right away, etc..

 

[OCNewbie]

I have a problem with never being able to stick with one individual character long enough to get them to the upper echelons of the particular gaming world. This was a big problem in EQ, when you really needed a "main" character that you put most of your focus on in order to get them into a guild, and spend enough time on just them to keep up with the content, maintain your gear, etc. I'd do tons of research into the capabilities of all the classes the game had to offer, and I was too intrigued by the differences to just settle with one class/character. Because of that, I suffered in never getting into a decent raiding guild, and never really getting close to seeing end-game kinda stuff.

EQ was a very unique experience for me. I'm not sure any game will ever be able to replicate that. I was incredibly obsessive with it, but at the time I didn't mind at all. Currently I play Lord of the Rings Online and am having a blast with that game. It's very much casual compared to EQ, though I'm really not sure what the end-game is like at this point. I like that it's challenging without being ridiculously so, and the quest system and storyline have been awesome so far.

 

[gregoryvg]

I would not consider myself hardcore or casual, but somewhere in between. My favorite MMO was/is DAoC (come on, release Origins already). I felt that DAoC was casual enough to pick up and play, but also allowed room to be hardcore. Until ToA there were no hardcore raiding spots, so most of the hardcore play was out in the Frontiers - which was a lot of fun, but did have a fairly steep learning curve.

I do not, and would not like to wait for hours for a PvE raid, so I am not hardcore in that sense. However, if I like a game, I will spend many hours and night, weeks, months or years even on the game.

Just for the record I hated WAR. Gave it two months and had fun for awhile, but in the end I hated the tier system, and the solo quest leveling to 40 - that was a joke. I think their PQ system however (in concept, not execution) is fantastic and I can see other games picking it up. The PQ system would have been better in a game that focuses more on cooperative group play and not solo questing play.

 

[Koudelka]

I never cared for WAR either. I thought it was awesome the first week or so. I just couldnt get hooked. When i start playing a game and do not see another live person for a whole day.. or any sort of group going on whatsoever i get bored.

 

[Juddog]

Originally posted by: Koudelka
@Juddog

Yeah. Around the time AA's were introduced, i felt EQ was at its peak. After that there were just too many expansions and other games being introduced. Too many dead zones in EQ with no players because there were just.. too many zones. EQ had hit that point that all MMO's are destined to hit after a while.

I think the problem with WoW is that its so easy to acquire good green gear, and its fairly quick to level.

So.. In one hand - you can go waste time now exploring a dungeon nobody visits any longer and have some fun and get some great gear for your level.
In the other hand - you have your buddy who decided to keep leveling, and is now several levels ahead of you and also has better green gear he got from killing mobs while xp'ing than the blue gear you got from your dungeon.

In EQ, levels took forever to grind, starting from almost 20. And the better gear you had, the more people were going to invite you into their group over someone else. Also you'd gain a better rep, kill faster, be invited to groups more often and thus = more xp. So, it was completely reasonable to visit old dungeons and see a lot of people in them trying to get some good gear for their level.

Personally, i quit EQ during Planes of Power.. too much dead and new content for me. When Scars of Velious was out.. i think EQ was in the best shape ever. Soooo much fun content to kill with good rewards everywhere and always populated by players.


EDIT: Oh, btw. Just a small reason i didnt consider WoW entirely hardcore, in defense of players scratching their heads with nothing to do.

Look at how many max level characters you'd find in WoW vs EQ. It was uncommon to find a player with more than 1 or 2 max level characters in EQ with solid equipment during the first couple expansions (thats all i can vouche for because i only played for about 5 years). In the same amount of time, its entirely common to have players with half a dozen or more max level characters with solid or even max pvp equipment.

I quit EQ right after OoW came out. My main character was a cleric, level 75 with about 500 AA's. The amount of progression available was nice, but on the other hand, like you said, it was extremely hard to get another character up and running without spending enormous amounts of time on it or multiboxing on a regular basis. The problem with keying up and old zones, is that if you weren't part of a guild that set aside the time to help you, you didn't stand a chance of doing it on your own.

On the server I was on, there were only maybe 2-3 truly high end guilds that had progressed deep into the OoW dungeons, and their requirements to get in were truly staggering. On my cleric my days /played was around 110 or so, and even then, I didn't want to dedicate the time sink to ever get the class rez rod. Soloing past level 65 was nigh impossible for some classes (e.g. warrior) as the health and mana regen were so slow, and no food / water, that you literally would sit there for minutes in between each solo kill unless you were a kiting class like Druid / Necro.

The only reason I played EQ for as long as I did was to two box a warrior with my cleric. I got the warrior to level 62 with about 50 AA's, just to cover the base tanking abilities, and with the fabled executioner's axe and the warrior riposte special ability I would go into a zone with the lowest end of blue con mobs, pull about 10-15, damage shield and just pop my special which would hit them for 500 - 800 dmg per shot when they tried to hit me.

With the cleric on the side of the two box combo, I had a macro set up to target my warrior, assist, and attack so the cleric hammer was constantly proccing, then pop a complete heal when the warrior was at around 50 % health. It worked pretty well, and I managed to get pretty deep into some old school zones like Velk's and was soloing mobs in Plane of Valor, but ultimately it got kinda boring always two boxing for hours on end. There were fundamental flaws in the EQ system where if you didn't have X class, the group was screwed.

In WoW they did away with that by allowing several healing classes that can perform good enough, same with tanks and dps. I tried picking up EQ again a while back when they were giving away free equipment and a month's subscription along with all the expansions for free in a desperate attempt to gain new players, but just found it kinda empty. I went around the PoP zones and they were like ghost towns.

So while EQ was the ultimate in hard raid bosses and endgame progression, so much of it became lifeless and empty after a time and since soloing was close to impossible with some classes, it became really unfriendly towards new players.

 

[Koudelka]

I played a wizard. I really enjoyed AoE groups around the time of Luclin

It was nice getting 1/3 to 1/2 of a AA point with a single pull. 2 wizards, 2 enchanters, 1 cleric and 1 puller.. or if you were really good you had 3 wizards and one of the wizards pulled, which i often did Totally badass running around with levitate pulling about 40+ dark blue mobs behind me and then drag them towards Enchanters for chain stuns.

AoE groups = best time i ever had in EQ

If WoW had something like AA points i'd probably play it. But i dislike being called a noob unless i have exactly the same gear as every other turd on the entire server ie. full pvp set or better (which takes weeks of nonstop grinding)

 

[TidusZ]

WoW had/has aoe farming as well, it was actually used to powerlevel using out of party high level players to kill for a while until it was fixed. Still worked great though otherwise.