CA's overcrowded prisons

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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What happens when the world's most jailing nation meets a governing system where citizens give very low priority to spending any money for inmates meets budget crisis?

You don't get a very good solution to meeting basic moral needs for crowding, medical care, not to mention rehabilitation.

This citizens of California have long done poorly at meeting reasonable standards for prisoners for much - one bright spot was finally taking steps against prisoner rape.

For years, warnings about overcrowding have gone ignored, failing reports for medical care have gone ignored by politicians and citizens.

Thank goodness for courts and a federal constitution against cruel punishment.

Finally, after this long pattern of neglect, the Supreme Court has ruled.

Disgustingly, it has the usual 5-4 split - so that the 4 radical right-wing Justices fail to uphold the constitution when it comes to inmates. They're immoral and disgraces.

But the majority of the court did the right thing and held California accountable.

Now, it's not a good situation. California faces the release of tens of thousands of inmates, which is not good for justice of public safety.

It's a price for the long neglect. It's the right thing to do - but not as good as if California had dealt with the problem when it should.

We should start to look more at crime prevention programs that are cost effective, and rehabilitation, as we deal with overcrowding and medical care.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/sc-dc-0524-court-prisons-web-20110523,0,6954874.story
 

ichy

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2006
6,940
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The only crime prevention strategy that works is incarcerating criminals. All your other touchy-feely feel good crap is a waste of time and energy.

If California dusted off the gas chamber at San Quentin and started using it 24/7 they could solve their overcrowding problem. Kill everyone convicted of at least three violent felonies.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
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The only crime prevention strategy that works is incarcerating criminals. All your other touchy-feely feel good crap is a waste of time and energy.

If California dusted off the gas chamber at San Quentin and started using it 24/7 they could solve their overcrowding problem. Kill everyone convicted of at least three violent felonies.

Idiotic and immoral, in alphabetical order. Let's hope the quality of replies improves.
 

MotF Bane

No Lifer
Dec 22, 2006
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And where do you propose the money comes from for crime prevention programs (what is this, abstinence education?), rehabilitation, medical care, more prisons, more guards...? Ah, let me guess - raise taxes on the rich! Of course!

Morals are subjective. Get that through your head. Use the Constitution to judge the legal status of prisoner treatment, but you cannot use your own set of moral values. Your morals are different from ichy's, his values are different from mine, my values are different from... pick someone, it doesn't matter.

Oh, and you want to clear out the prisons a good bit? End the war on drugs. Voila. Cost-efficient too.
 

MotF Bane

No Lifer
Dec 22, 2006
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Idiotic and immoral, in alphabetical order. Let's hope the quality of replies improves.

Again, morals are subjective. I find nothing immoral about execution of deserving criminals, though a strict three strikes law has long been known to be inherently flawed. So you may object by YOUR morals, but your morals are worthless to the rest of us, just as ours are worthless to you. Find a legal ground to challenge the death penalty - but you can't, really, the answer has been sitting in the Bill of Rights all along.
 

ichy

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2006
6,940
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a strict three strikes law has long been known to be inherently flawed.

That's why I said three violent felonies. I feel like we criminalize too much behavior nowadays, especially in pursuit of the futile "War on Drugs." It's a waste of money and distracts us from punishing violent criminals properly.
 

airdata

Diamond Member
Jul 11, 2010
4,987
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prisons are a business.
here's how it works.

CCCA ( Corrections Corporation of America ) builds a jail. I don't have the actual numbers, but lets say they get $30k per inmate they house per year. They probably cut alot of corners to keep costs down and profits up. They also have the benefit of basically slave labor to help keep costs of up keep down around the place.


I have no problem w\ california letting people out. You could probably purge the system of non violent offenders and save a ton of money if that's what they have to do.

Would a "second chance" military program be out of the question for people in prison?
 

airdata

Diamond Member
Jul 11, 2010
4,987
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Don't do the crime if you're not will to do the time.

We treat criminals far better than they treated their victims.
Can't fairly lump everybody together...

I'm all for expedited death sentences though. If somebody is sentenced to die, they shouldn't sit on death row for 10 years or more.

And then people who are mentally ill like that guy that beheaded the kid on the gray hound bus... why is he being kept alive? obviously people like him are never going to be a part of society.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
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Punishment should fit the crime. Three violent felonies & death penalty are you crazy?

I was in a bar fight not too long ago where some guy swung a pool stick at me, I caught it right before it hit my head, he broke my pinky finger, and my own hand chipped my tooth..anyway he had about 5 violent felonies from this incident alone and no way I wish death on him 1 year tops!

Point being any scrap can lead to multiple violent felonies and you're willing to put people to death over a fight?

I think I'll save that for murderer i.e. eye for an eye.
 
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ichy

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2006
6,940
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Punishment should fit the crime. Three violent felonies & death penalty are you crazy?

I was in a bar fight not too long ago where some guy swung a pool stick at me, I caught it right before it hit my head, he broke my pinky finger, and my own hand chipped my tooth..anyway he had about 5 violent felonies from this incident alone and no way I wish death on him 1 year tops!

5 prior violent FELONIES? What he did to you sounds like misdemeanor assault. I'm talking about carjacking, armed robbery, assault that causes real injury, etc etc. Anyone who's convicted of three crimes like that is a piece of human garbage with no chance of contributing to society.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
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This citizens of California have long done poorly at meeting reasonable standards for prisoners for much
Don't you mean the government of California has done a poor job?

The government that has been controlled by Democrats for 40+ years?

Maybe it is time for the people of California to replace the Democrats with someone who will do the job the right way.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
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5 prior violent FELONIES? What he did to you sounds like misdemeanor assault. I'm talking about carjacking, armed robbery, assault that causes real injury, etc etc. Anyone who's convicted of three crimes like that is a piece of human garbage with no chance of contributing to society.

Aggravated assault, battery and bunch of of other stuff, he was a meth head so they got him on those charges too. What do you mean prior? Yes he had a record but what I'm saying is even if he didn't this one thing would have been death penalty under your rules.

Oh and for the record I don't usually go to bars but we were playing our poker tournament and this bar offered freebies for our group to come there. ^^This is why. nothing ever good comes out of a bar.
 
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airdata

Diamond Member
Jul 11, 2010
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What do you guys think about military recruiting from prisons?

Alot of recidivism is because there's no other way to make it outside as a felon. If you gave some people the option of joining the infantry when they got out, recidivism would likely drop drastically.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
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All they got to do is give up this ridiculous drug war. That's half the people right there.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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Don't you mean the government of California has done a poor job?

The government that has been controlled by Democrats for 40+ years?

Maybe it is time for the people of California to replace the Democrats with someone who will do the job the right way.

The problem here is the people. The government prioritizes what they want.

If the people wanted this done right, it would be; they don't.

So, yes, it's the government - a combination of a Democratic legislature and almost entirely Republican governors for decades - that has done this badly.

But it's not against the people's instructions.

You imply the people should elect someone else - the Republicans are far worse about meeting standards for prisoners, so who are they going to elect?

Arnold Schwarzeneggar and Jerry Brown both fought the lawsuit. That's about simply following popular opinion that isn't in favor of decent treatment of prisoners.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
And all murderers must die, save accidental or manslaughter.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
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What do you guys think about military recruiting from prisons?

Alot of recidivism is because there's no other way to make it outside as a felon. If you gave some people the option of joining the infantry when they got out, recidivism would likely drop drastically.

I'm not a fan of it, because we don't need more excess militarism, and the soldiers we d have, the better quality the better. Recruiting them into other work groups, sounds good.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
34,596
8,655
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I agree with the Supreme Court.

California has failed the constitutional demand of avoiding cruel and unusual punishment by its third world conditions. The state does not deserve to have prisoners.

The solutions are easy. Stop the war on drugs, and only use jail for people who are threats to society. More than that, keep the sentences reasonably short, and if the sentence must be long enough (20+ years) then execution must be on the table for anyone who is not ever fit for society.

Jail must be a place you don't want to send people. Not a damn welfare system where we stick everyone and their brother if they do something against some arbitrary law. Being a police state society with a huge prison population has to end.

Today our government forgets that it serves the people instead of itself. At least the Supreme Court ruled in favor of the people's constitutional rights. The Republican judges who claimed otherwise remind me of those who support the Patriot Act. Those judges have NO PLACE lecturing us of negative consequences as an excuse to ignore the Bill of Rights.
 

xj0hnx

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2007
9,262
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All they got to do is give up this ridiculous drug war. That's half the people right there.

I was just about to post this exact same thing. There's absolutely no need to raise taxes to pay for moret cushy treatment of real criminals, simply make drugs legal, pot at the least with decriminalization for possession and sale of the rest, and the problem solves itself.
 

Fear No Evil

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2008
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I think the argument that if we legalize drugs the money issue will just magically go away is absurd at best. If we legalize drugs the cost to society simply shifts from prisons to treatment/welfare/healthcare. Easy access to drugs would probably drive the costs to society UP.

Now, if we just legalize MJ, the tax revenue from all the sales tax collected by the sales of Cheetos and Doritos may offset that. And of course all the libs being too stoned to vote would be a good thing as well.
 

xj0hnx

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2007
9,262
3
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I think the argument that if we legalize drugs the money issue will just magically go away is absurd at best. If we legalize drugs the cost to society simply shifts from prisons to treatment/welfare/healthcare. Easy access to drugs would probably drive the costs to society UP.

Fail. EVERYWHERE it has been tried has had positive effects both socially, and financially. You must not be aware of the fact that we spend about a trillion dollars doing absolutely nothing to stop drugs.