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Carrier to relocate 1,400 Indianapolis jobs to Mexico

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Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,964
666
126
We're losing our wealth creation and instead you want to focus on how we can seize and redistribute it without regard to who actually earned it?

Does the term "rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic" mean anything to you?
Basic Income is one of the few economic reforms that you'll find support from both liberal and conservative academics. People complain about losing jobs to foreign countries where American workers have to compete with people making less than a dollar an hour. With advanced robotics/AI, you are competing with technology that doesn't need to eat, sleep, have insurance, support a family, buy useless shit, etc.

Theoretically, when the AI revolution comes, everything we consume will be dirt cheap, but if there are no jobs, nobody will be able to afford it. Basic Income is the only solution to this.

What do you suggest, for example, for the people who work in the transportation when millions of them are put out of work when self driving cars and trucks are a reality? Turn them into soylent green?
 

Triumph

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
15,032
13
81
Theoretically, when the AI revolution comes, everything we consume will be dirt cheap, but if there are no jobs, nobody will be able to afford it. Basic Income is the only solution to this.
I don't understand why we as a society don't talk about this more often. When everything becomes fully automated, what do we expect everyone to DO? Without work, people become aimless and bad stuff starts happening. I firmly believe that idle hands are the devil's workshop, as the old saying goes. I guess liberals think that everyone is going to turn their attention to making great works of art and exploring the unanswered questions of the universe (wrong!). And conservatives just don't care, as long as they get theirs. So....
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,964
666
126
I don't understand why we as a society don't talk about this more often. When everything becomes fully automated, what do we expect everyone to DO? Without work, people become aimless and bad stuff starts happening. I firmly believe that idle hands are the devil's workshop, as the old saying goes. I guess liberals think that everyone is going to turn their attention to making great works of art and exploring the unanswered questions of the universe (wrong!). And conservatives just don't care, as long as they get theirs. So....
Institute a basic income then bring back the CCC and rebuild our country:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_Conservation_Corps
 

TheSlamma

Diamond Member
Sep 6, 2005
7,628
4
81
Why would tools like Jhhnn scatter? It's not like the Pubbies are any better. If anything, they are slightly worse.
Some people are 100% incapable of saying anything bad about their party when they have such an unhealthy bias, so they make sure not to take part in something that is indefensible.
 

TheSlamma

Diamond Member
Sep 6, 2005
7,628
4
81
We need to be reaslistic... manufacturing jobs, and a lot of service jobs and yes even high skilled jobs are going to go away either via outsourcing or AI and there's nothing we can do about it.

I wish we were having a discussion about introducing basic income, but none of the candidates are talking about it.
That is fine when they actually start outsourcing it to robots, but for now its just being sourced to countries that have no workers rights and well under living wages pay.

I've been on the IT end of automating manufacturing, it's not taking over the industry as fast as people think. I first started with Quantum hard drives drives back in the early 90's, visit a local manufacturer also, there are plenty of people still on the line making sure those machines are doing what they have to do.
 

Anubis

No Lifer
Aug 31, 2001
78,727
412
126
if we just started import taxing US goods made overseas as we should this would quickly become a non issue as it would not be cheaper do it anymore
 

Subyman

Moderator <br> VC&G Forum
Mar 18, 2005
7,876
32
86
I don't understand why we as a society don't talk about this more often. When everything becomes fully automated, what do we expect everyone to DO? Without work, people become aimless and bad stuff starts happening. I firmly believe that idle hands are the devil's workshop, as the old saying goes. I guess liberals think that everyone is going to turn their attention to making great works of art and exploring the unanswered questions of the universe (wrong!). And conservatives just don't care, as long as they get theirs. So....
I believe many people will pursue creative endeavors. Others will do what they do now during their off time. Hobbies, entertainment, house hold projects, social events, etc. How the government transitions between these periods of time is very important. I don't think we are nearly there yet, but I can see in the next 50 years or so that we will need to start working toward this future. IMO, it is a great future where humans can truly be free but there are a lot of issues surrounding it as well. I'll leave it there because we could fill many pages on this topic.
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,183
60
91
Just purchased a Toyota Corolla. I don't much care for domestic cars like Ford or Chevy/GM. For years I have purchased domestic cars. Not anymore. Prices on cars are through the roof. It was like pulling teeth to spend the amount of money I did for a car. I like the car, but it does kind of have a gutless engine.
 

NaughtyGeek

Golden Member
May 3, 2005
1,065
0
71
Just purchased a Toyota Corolla. I don't much care for domestic cars like Ford or Chevy/GM. For years I have purchased domestic cars. Not anymore. Prices on cars are through the roof. It was like pulling teeth to spend the amount of money I did for a car. I like the car, but it does kind of have a gutless engine.
The sad thing is, the Toyota Corolla likely supported American jobs to a greater extent than any of the "domestic" alternatives.
 

zephyrprime

Diamond Member
Feb 18, 2001
7,506
1
81
Just purchased a Toyota Corolla. I don't much care for domestic cars like Ford or Chevy/GM. For years I have purchased domestic cars. Not anymore. Prices on cars are through the roof. It was like pulling teeth to spend the amount of money I did for a car. I like the car, but it does kind of have a gutless engine.
An unfounded complaint. Horsepower from cars is up across the board from all makers. Unless you choose to go from a larger to a smaller vehicle, you have more horsepower now, not less.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,876
460
126
Basic Income is one of the few economic reforms that you'll find support from both liberal and conservative academics. People complain about losing jobs to foreign countries where American workers have to compete with people making less than a dollar an hour. With advanced robotics/AI, you are competing with technology that doesn't need to eat, sleep, have insurance, support a family, buy useless shit, etc.

Theoretically, when the AI revolution comes, everything we consume will be dirt cheap, but if there are no jobs, nobody will be able to afford it. Basic Income is the only solution to this.

What do you suggest, for example, for the people who work in the transportation when millions of them are put out of work when self driving cars and trucks are a reality? Turn them into soylent green?
Hint: These jobs are not moving to Mexico because Mexico leads the world in advanced robotics/AI. They will be built by the same human beings that build them up here, just in a nation where economics dictate they work for a small fraction of what American workers demand and corruption dictates that even if laws exist to protect the environment, workers and the disabled, they can be safely ignored for a nominal sum. As TheSlamma points out, we can have that conversation when there is an appropriate event horizon. At the moment we are decades at the least from such an event, and given that we are losing our wealth creating industries, discussing innovative ways of "fairly" distributing wealth should be a distant second to discussing how to keep value in those little green pictures of old dead white guys with funny hair.

Some people are 100% incapable of saying anything bad about their party when they have such an unhealthy bias, so they make sure not to take part in something that is indefensible.
True, Jhhnn is just code; there is literally nothing it can't spin. Or at least, literally nothing for which it can't vomit forth some nominally related bit of propaganda.

The sad thing is, the Toyota Corolla likely supported American jobs to a greater extent than any of the "domestic" alternatives.
True. The new Ford Escape is 65% - 85% non-North American imported content, whereas the Toyota Corolla is about 60% North American content IIRC. Sadly, that's about as closely as content is tracked, so Mexico and Canada are equivalent to America in such labels.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,908
44
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
More coming out. Carrier was given a tax abatement of $1 million from city of Indianapolis and $5.1 million in Federal Tax credits.

The parent Company made $56 billion profit last year, $6 billion profit for the Carrier division.

Federal and State and the City claim they will try and get that money back, yeah sure.
 

brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
19,274
10,085
136
More coming out. Carrier was given a tax abatement of $1 million from city of Indianapolis and $5.1 million in Federal Tax credits.

The parent Company made $56 billion profit last year, $6 billion profit for the Carrier division.

Federal and State and the City claim they will try and get that money back, yeah sure.
Where do you come up with your numbers?!? Total United Technologies profit was ~$7B last year. Don't devalue your position by posting false information.
 

Triumph

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
15,032
13
81
I believe many people will pursue creative endeavors. Others will do what they do now during their off time. Hobbies, entertainment, house hold projects, social events, etc. How the government transitions between these periods of time is very important. I don't think we are nearly there yet, but I can see in the next 50 years or so that we will need to start working toward this future. IMO, it is a great future where humans can truly be free but there are a lot of issues surrounding it as well. I'll leave it there because we could fill many pages on this topic.
Many people might, but a small percentage, I'd wager. Most humans just simply aren't that altruistic.
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,964
666
126
Hint: These jobs are not moving to Mexico because Mexico leads the world in advanced robotics/AI. They will be built by the same human beings that build them up here, just in a nation where economics dictate they work for a small fraction of what American workers demand and corruption dictates that even if laws exist to protect the environment, workers and the disabled, they can be safely ignored for a nominal sum. As TheSlamma points out, we can have that conversation when there is an appropriate event horizon. At the moment we are decades at the least from such an event, and given that we are losing our wealth creating industries, discussing innovative ways of "fairly" distributing wealth should be a distant second to discussing how to keep value in those little green pictures of old dead white guys with funny hair.
Basic Income should protect people from not only AI but also outsourcing. Outsourcing is both good and bad: Good that it gives us cheap goods, bad that it moves jobs overseas. If you have basic income, you shouldn't even care if jobs move out.

Also, basic income is going to take a shitload of time to get through congress, if at all. Most people don't even know what it is and in 6-7 years we will already see an upheaval in the transportation industry. We already have 18 wheelers that can be driven by itself. The transportation industry employs something like 4 million people, that's going to be far too many people to move into other professions.
 

nickqt

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2015
6,048
4,106
136
Many people might, but a small percentage, I'd wager. Most humans just simply aren't that altruistic.
Are there jobs for 7+ billion human beings?

Unless we're going to go Full-Keynes and just hire people to dig holes and then refill them, the coming technology/automation mass-layoff pretty much assures us that there are going to be many, many unemployed people...and not because they're lazy and unaltruistic, but because there just aren't jobs.

As a civilization/species, we can either prepare for that and give people outlets in which they can pass their time constructively while still encouraging people to work on behalf of society, or we can continue to divide resources up so that the majority of people don't own anything and have no stake in the current system.

When people don't have a stake in the current system continuing to exist, it usually doesn't end particularly well for the people in charge of that system.

We call that concept, "history".
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,876
460
126
Basic Income should protect people from not only AI but also outsourcing. Outsourcing is both good and bad: Good that it gives us cheap goods, bad that it moves jobs overseas. If you have basic income, you shouldn't even care if jobs move out.

Also, basic income is going to take a shitload of time to get through congress, if at all. Most people don't even know what it is and in 6-7 years we will already see an upheaval in the transportation industry. We already have 18 wheelers that can be driven by itself. The transportation industry employs something like 4 million people, that's going to be far too many people to move into other professions.
So let's say we get "basic income" so we can all afford our imported stuff without having to have jobs. What then? People accept money only because it can be exchanged for goods and services; it's a placeholder, worthless by itself. We already have billions of dollars in trade deficit each month. Once we've lost all our manufacturing, that leaves IP, real estate, and the stock market we can sell. We aren't producing nearly enough IP to break even with our remaining manufacturing, so most of the money we send out of the country has to be banked, loaned back to us, or traded for stock or real estate. So once the people who manufacture our goods own pretty much all our real estate and our stock, what then? Do you really believe Chinese and Mexican workers are going to continue making products for us when they already have everything of value that we have to trade?

Assuming we ever get "basic income", we'll need much higher tax rates to support it. Certainly our rich people aren't going to continue running businesses here when they are allowed to retain only a small portion of their earnings, and even if they all became stupid, our environmental and worker protection will ensure that manufacturing things in America will always be more expensive. "Basic income" will only further squeeze manufacturing - why work if all your needs are being met unless you earn a ton of money for not much work? Such a concept will only work if government runs everything with an iron fist and everything is built and distributed and sold by machines which build and maintain themselves, from raw materials also produced/mined/refined by machines. At that point, how much longer will we have before we hit another singularity and machines gain enough self-awareness to rebel against being our slaves?

There. Is. No. Free. Lunch.
 

Newbian

Lifer
Aug 24, 2008
24,626
654
126
if we just started import taxing US goods made overseas as we should this would quickly become a non issue as it would not be cheaper do it anymore
This.

Any import from a country that does not meet some kind of minimal wage rule and standards for their employees needs to be taxed to the point with they are at least 5% more expensive then a item built in the country or from a area with such a standard.
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,964
666
126
So let's say we get "basic income" so we can all afford our imported stuff without having to have jobs. What then? People accept money only because it can be exchanged for goods and services; it's a placeholder, worthless by itself. We already have billions of dollars in trade deficit each month. Once we've lost all our manufacturing, that leaves IP, real estate, and the stock market we can sell. We aren't producing nearly enough IP to break even with our remaining manufacturing, so most of the money we send out of the country has to be banked, loaned back to us, or traded for stock or real estate. So once the people who manufacture our goods own pretty much all our real estate and our stock, what then? Do you really believe Chinese and Mexican workers are going to continue making products for us when they already have everything of value that we have to trade?

Assuming we ever get "basic income", we'll need much higher tax rates to support it. Certainly our rich people aren't going to continue running businesses here when they are allowed to retain only a small portion of their earnings, and even if they all became stupid, our environmental and worker protection will ensure that manufacturing things in America will always be more expensive. "Basic income" will only further squeeze manufacturing - why work if all your needs are being met unless you earn a ton of money for not much work? Such a concept will only work if government runs everything with an iron fist and everything is built and distributed and sold by machines which build and maintain themselves, from raw materials also produced/mined/refined by machines. At that point, how much longer will we have before we hit another singularity and machines gain enough self-awareness to rebel against being our slaves?

There. Is. No. Free. Lunch.
There's no free lunch when it comes to trade deficits actually. China has to do things like continually buy our treasury bonds/subsidize industries with tax dollars to sustain that deficit. That's unsustainable. You're seeing the effects of those policies on their economy now in China as their banks are sick and they have to force people to keep their money in the stock market to stop it from crashing (you're seeing lots of capital outflows as a result).

When things get dirt cheap due to globalization/ai, you don't even have to tax all that much to get everyone enough money to sustain themselves as the cost of everything will drop to miniscule amounts. With basic income, you won't even need to care about the upcoming hyper deflation (in fact, it makes basic income even easier to implement).


At that point, how much longer will we have before we hit another singularity and machines gain enough self-awareness to rebel against being our slaves?
lol, talk about getting ahead of yourself
 

Zorkorist

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2007
6,867
3
76
Time was we charged tariffs on imported goods, so you could move your factory if you wished but you'd gain no competitive advantage for doing so. As a bonus, those foreign manufacturers who wanted to play in our market were often incented to open American factories. Now we've embraced free trade, which means that American workers have to compete on equal terms with workers in Mexico, China, India, Vietnam, etc. True, they have shipping costs, but they also have much lower environmental and worker safety regulations driving up costs.

At some point we'll no longer be able to borrow cheap money and we'll default. At that point, we'll have to once again figure out how to manufacture products and live within our means. Until then, enjoy the ride down. It might not seem too attractive, but compared to the long climb up . . .
mxnerd is right. Invest in yourself. The one thing that can never be taken away. Minimize debt, minimize liability to these jokers in Government.

Meanwhile, the American Federal Government, is all over the place, making rules and regulations, spending into debt, and otherwise flailing around like one of those balloons at car dealerships.

Obama's new proposed budget adds .5 Trillion Dollars to our already massive debt of 18 Trillion plus.

It's not free trade that is the issue, it's the cost of living, or the cost of doing business, forced upon us by a Government that is squandering wealth like there is no tomorrow. A Government that doesn't have to balance it's own budget, so why would they care about the economics of air conditioners?

-John
 

Brian Stirling

Diamond Member
Feb 7, 2010
4,000
2
0
Spending and development on robotics for manufacturing is actually less than it was decades ago as a percentage of GDP because manufacturers don't need to spend billions developing new manufacturing tech -- they have cheaper labor!

150 years ago abut 85% of the workforce was engaged in food production to one degree or another. You had farmers and ranchers and fishermen and then came the farm tractor. Today the percent of the workforce similarly engaged is less than 5% and again, the main reason was the development of productivity enhancing technology such as the tractor.

For most of that 150 years the folks that no longer worked on the farms or ranches or fishing boats worked in the factories building that new tech. In addition, 3x-5x more folks had jobs that in one way or another were tied to the manufacturing industries.

Today business leaders have broken that record and have instead decided to devalue labor to the greatest extent possible. Any job that can be done by someone else for less will find the pay-scale and benefits fall to reflect the new talent pool of cheap workers.

When Milton Friedman began to tout this new way of doing things most people ridiculed him and sane folks pointed out the outcomes that would happen, but business leaders and the paid for pets in DC wanted more for themselves and bought into the free trade game hook, line and sinker and here were are today -- right were the sane people said we'd be 60+ years ago.

But, since the early 90's with the rise of Clinton Democrats the working class has completely lost there voice in DC. Today the leaders of both parties are all playing the same game and the political dealers in DC are being comp'd by the 0.0001%ers' who are grateful for the way the deck has been stacked!


Brian
 

Triumph

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
15,032
13
81
Are there jobs for 7+ billion human beings?

Unless we're going to go Full-Keynes and just hire people to dig holes and then refill them, the coming technology/automation mass-layoff pretty much assures us that there are going to be many, many unemployed people...and not because they're lazy and unaltruistic, but because there just aren't jobs.

As a civilization/species, we can either prepare for that and give people outlets in which they can pass their time constructively while still encouraging people to work on behalf of society, or we can continue to divide resources up so that the majority of people don't own anything and have no stake in the current system.

When people don't have a stake in the current system continuing to exist, it usually doesn't end particularly well for the people in charge of that system.

We call that concept, "history".
I don't really understand what your post has to do with what I'm saying. If people don't have anything to do (aka jobs), even if they are provided with a basic subsistence, crime is going to go through the roof.
 

Zorkorist

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2007
6,867
3
76
LOL, nickqt is on the early stages of sitting on his ass and expecting others to feed him.

-John
 

nickqt

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2015
6,048
4,106
136
I don't really understand what your post has to do with what I'm saying. If people don't have anything to do (aka jobs), even if they are provided with a basic subsistence, crime is going to go through the roof.
You think crime is going to go through the roof if people don't have "anything to do".

I don't understand why we as a society don't talk about this more often. When everything becomes fully automated, what do we expect everyone to DO? Without work, people become aimless and bad stuff starts happening. I firmly believe that idle hands are the devil's workshop, as the old saying goes. I guess liberals think that everyone is going to turn their attention to making great works of art and exploring the unanswered questions of the universe (wrong!). And conservatives just don't care, as long as they get theirs. So....
Well...crime exists as long as people are able to acquire things they otherwise aren't. Sometimes it is necessities, sometimes it's just money or materials of comfort.

You seem to accept that automation is going to reduce the amount of jobs available, no? Well, I agree. And unless we make it so that people have a reason to let the current hierarchy and system exist...it probably won't. You call it crime, I look to history and call it revolution...and revolutions almost never work out for the people at the top, or the bottom.

The more we can negate the desire for revolution, the less likely it will happen. So, how to get there? Well, first, you can't just allow billions of people to starve to death in squalor.
Are there jobs for 7+ billion human beings?

Unless we're going to go Full-Keynes and just hire people to dig holes and then refill them, the coming technology/automation mass-layoff pretty much assures us that there are going to be many, many unemployed people...and not because they're lazy and unaltruistic, but because there just aren't jobs.

As a civilization/species, we can either prepare for that and give people outlets in which they can pass their time constructively while still encouraging people to work on behalf of society, or we can continue to divide resources up so that the majority of people don't own anything and have no stake in the current system....
 

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